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Curzon
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Curzon

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November 9th, 2009

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Reconsidering the Reconsideration of Futenma

The Futenma US Marine Airbase is inconveniently situated in the center of Ginowan City in southern Okinawa. The location is awful, a relic of Japan’s imperial military infrastructure that has military aircraft constantly landing and taking off in a dense urban environment, and the locals want it gone. In the mid-1990s the Liberal Democratic Party (LDP) and the US started to hammer out a relocation plan, and fifteen years later, they finally agreed to move the base to an offshore facility in northern Okinawa.

futenmaJapan’s new Prime Minister Yukio Hatoyama of the Democratic Party of Japan (DPJ) wants to uphold an election pledge to “move away from U.S. dependency to a more equal alliance”—which means reconsidering the Futenma relocation. Hatayama wants to act boldly on this matter, and has decided that instead the base should be moved to… um… somewhere else. Well, maybe—he hasn’t decided yet. Hatoyama’s inability to envision an alternative plan, or even how to approach an alternative plan, combined with the DPJ’s replacement of bureaucrats with elected politicians in the public policy debate, has given the more ambitious members of the cabinet the opportunity to engage in public policy freestyling. Transportation Minister Maehara wants to scrap the plan and go back to square one, Defense Minister Kitazawa wants to keep the plan as it is, and Foreign Minister Okada wants to relocate the base elsewhere in Japan to Guam elsewhere inside Okinawa. The DPJ vision changes almost daily, and US officials, long numb to Japan’s tedious foot-dragging, are now getting pissed—most noticeably US Defense Secretary Gates, who visited Japan last month and called the reconsideration of the plan “immensely complicated and counterproductive.” But what else should we have expected from these guys? As I warned earlier this year, the DPJ are amateurs suffering cognitive dissonance when it comes to foreign policy, and the longer this abstract debate drags out, US officials will only become more frustrated. And this threatens the stability of the US-Japan relationship.

Most of the “Japan hands” in the blogosphere sympathize with the DPJ. Tobias Harris of Observing Japan says the US needs to wake up to the reality of this new alliance. Michael Cucek at Shisaku has a comprehensive and pessimistic analysis of Obama’s upcoming visit to Tokyo in the broader context of US-Japan relations, which concisely dissects the unique challenge that now face this critical bilateral relationship. To abridge Michael’s key section:

In international law there is the concept of “odious debt”—of national debts incurred by an oppressive regime that a successor regime has the right to refuse to pay. Given the decades the LDP clung to power, many in the present coalition government consider a whole host of Japan’s obligations to be “odious” that they should review and possibly repudiate.

The agreement to transfer Marine Corps elements from the Futenma Airbase to Henoko is the ultimate expression of an odious obligation. It was an LDP solution to an LDP problem: keep American bases off the main islands (even though the amphibious ready unit, the ships the Marines are supposed to ride on, are homeported in Sasebo [in Nagasaki] and the Marine fighter jets in housed at Iwakuni [in Yamaguchi]); keep the Okinawans down and quiet; and keep visiting Americans alternately enchanted and frustrated by disingenuous reports of progress toward the goal, which somehow had to along the way destroy vital dugong habitat. As the Prime Minister and others in the DPJ point out, not even 12 years of LDP governments could bring the Futenma transfer to fruition. That he and his party should be condemned for not imposing an arrangement they oppose on a population that does not want it baffles them. That the United States government continues to insist that they do so exasperates them.

Readers won’t be surprised that I find myself defending the LDP decisions and take issue with the description above, a position that matches that of most of Okinawa’s elected leaders. Let’s look at some key arguments for the Futenma relocation plan:

  • The residents of Nago, where the base is to be relocated, support the plan. Mayor Shimabukuro recently came out to agree with Gates, saying the US Defense Secretary is right for being frustrated with the central government’s indecision. Shimabukuro was elected on a platform built on the status quo set by his predecessor, which emphasizes economic growth over everything else, and he won more votes than both of his anti-base opponents combined.
  • It’s not just Nago—all twelve mayors of northern Okinawa have publicly accepted the new relocation plan. The DPJ’s waffling has been so unsettling to the locals that the mayor of Kadena is teaming up with the US forces to oppose relocating the relocation to Kadena, promoted by some members of the Hatoyama cabinet as the best alternative, and where one US facility complex already exists.
  • Okinawa Governor Nakaima accepts that US bases must stay in Okinawa. Nakaima has a particular knack for balancing the concerns about US bases with the need for the economic benefits that come with it, and has become relatively popular in Okinawa by refusing to side with either faction and instead saves his ire for the national government—all while saying that, in an ideal world, he would prefer bases be relocated outside Okinawa. He criticized the Defense Minsitry under the LDP for “lacking delicacy,” and most recently, didn’t mince words regarding the DPJ’s scattershot public debate on the topic, saying “Okinawa is not the central government’s rock garden.”
  • The biggest opponent of the relocation is Mayor Iha of Ginowan, and Ginowan is the center of all the protests—yet this is the municipality that would benefit from the relocation. It really doesn’t make sense—if the mayor and the residents don’t want the base in the city, why are they opposed to moving (most of it) out of the city? As it happens, Mayor Iha is the only elected mayor in Okinawa who vocally wants US forces not just out of Okinawa, but all of Japan. Of course he’s welcome to that opinion, but this is a view far removed from the mainstream public debate in Japan, making him unusual person to be quoted and referenced, unless the Hatoyama administration wants US forces out of Japan altogether (which it doesn’t).

Those are the practical and domestic political reasons for wanting the relocation. But beyond this, let’s review the relocation from the perspective of Japan’s national interest.

For more than half a century, the LDP management of the Japan-US relationship was, frankly, brilliant. Japan recieved dirt cheap defense services by letting the US base on Japan’s soil, yet managed to keep most American servicemen out of major urban areas (unlike Korea, where US bases are inside Seoul’s urban boundaries). Having defense outsourced to America and situated within the American economic sphere, Japan was able to concentrate on economic development and quickly grew to be the world’s second largest economy.

What has Japan done for the United States and the world in exchange for this discounted security? It makes minimum, token contributions to global security, bankrolls a few international development projects, and keeps proactive and material contributions at the bare minimum—or as Shisaku described Futenma, Japan kept “visiting Americans alternately enchanted and frustrated by disingenuous reports of progress.” That sentiment could be applied to much of Washington’s attitudes towards Japan when it comes to becoming more involved in world affairs.

Yet Washington has long tolerated Japan’s indifference to the world because under the LDP, it regularly granted the US unconditional support. Whether it be at the UN, or in supporting the US on tough foreign policy decisions, or in keeping bases available, Japan has long been a solid ally. That means a lot more than you might think. US bases have been kicked out of France, the Philippines, Saudi Arabia, Iceland, and elsewhere, and suffered various woes with regard to fierce public opposition in places such as South Korea and much of Europe. Save for the student protests of the 1960s, Japan has been remarkably reliable—if just in spirit. Or to quote a recent article in the Washington Post, “A senior State Department official said the United States had ‘grown comfortable’ thinking about Japan as a constant in U.S. relations in Asia.”

The DPJ is doing more than trying to break the Futenma deal—it’s breaking the unspoken understanding behind the entire alliance. By pushing for a more “equal” Japan-US relationship (whatever that means), and frustrating the Pentagon on its key issues (such as Futenma), the DPJ risks alienating it’s allies in Washington. And therein lies the danger for Japan’s national interest. America has been calling on Japan to “pull its weight” in contributing to global security for years, and we may be approaching the last straw. The Futenma controversy is compounded by the DPJ pushing to cancel it’s only proactive involvement in the war on terror by ending the refueling mission for US ships in the Indian Ocean.

But Hatoyama has got to accept the fact that neither he nor the Japanese people want an equal relationship with the United States—at least not if they actually saw what it would look like. Japan does not want to have to pay for US bases by sending Japanese SDF forces to Iraq and Afghanistan. They do not want to be diplomatically fending for themselves while repeating complaints about the North Korean abductions and Russia arresting its fisherman. They do not want to push themselves out of the US defensive perimeter, or even in the away direction from the US defensive perimeter. Of course, this may ultimately be good for US national interest, because this is a better time than any to demand Japan to step up to the plate and take a lead in the world. But Japan doesn’t really want that, yet that is where we are going if Hatoyama pursues the “equal alliance” mantra and continues to piss off the US just because it feels good.

Comments to this entry

Mutantfrog Travelogue » Blog Archive » Reconsidering the Reconsideration of Futenma
November 9, 2009
1:00 am
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Bryce
November 9, 2009
2:21 am
I think what has happened here is that the DPJ simply did not have a position on this issue because they thought that it could be postponed for a while. They certainly didn't say anything of substance at all about relocation in their manifesto. The promises the DPJ made about the LDP deal were simply that they would review it, and that they would focus mainly on the budgetary aspects. (LOTS of people are pissed off that Japan is footing the bill to relocate many of the Marines to Guam.) Of course, now if they do not oppose relocation to Henoko, they look like they are backing down, but that is largely due to an over-reaction by the Pentagon, not DPJ intransigence.

I would have a lot more sympathy for the U.S. position if the deal had not been signed off by the two parties in February when it looked like Aso would call a April or May election. Why not wait until the results of the (rather salient) election and see what is politically feasible then?
Bryce
November 9, 2009
2:59 am
"signed off by the two parties" -- that is the U.S. and Japan
Curzon
November 9, 2009
3:00 am
Because the US refused to wait any longer. I remember discussing this issue with colleagues back in 2002, where the media reports quoted US DOD officials who were at their wit's end over the slow progress of the relocation plans.
Cliff
November 9, 2009
6:15 am
The mayors of northern Okinawa want the bases in the north because they will get a lot of money. The people, however, do not want them, and that is what I hope is going through the DPJ's heads. Northern Okinawa is one of the few remaining military-free locations. There is a resort in Okuma and Camp Schwab in Higashi, but they are out of sight. The last thing people want is Nago turning into another America Village.
Ernest P Marr
November 9, 2009
10:50 am
This "article" just displays such stupidity I can hardly believe the author
has the confidence to surrender it to other humans.

Just to capture the essence of complete ignorance that permeates this steaming
piece of crap, take this quote

"America has been calling on Japan to “pull its weight” in contributing to global security for years, and we may be approaching the last straw. The Futenma controversy is compounded by the DPJ pushing to cancel it’s only proactive involvement in the war on terror by ending the refueling mission for US ships in the Indian Ocean."

Just correct me on this one would you ? Does "pulling its weight" include financing a lot of the Iraq War, plus buying American t-bills by the billion to finance the U.S. imperial adventures around the globe ?

Secondly, as you are aware, Japan has a clause in its constitution that doesn't permit anything more than a self-defence force. So in addition to public works projects and bankrolling the bombing of Basra plus refuelling in the Indian Ocean what else did you have in mind ? Bombing villages of women and children and wedding parties in Pakistan ?

And as for the "war on terror" my friend you really need to check that your brain and your perceptive capabilities are functioning correctly. For let us not be mistaken that there cannot be any such thing as a "war on terror".
"Terror" is an abstract noun. How do you have a war against it?
You can go to war against a country or a government or a person or an organization but not an abstract noun.

And if you mean a war on brown people who dare oppose the U.S. / U.K unilateral
paradim, OK, now I get your point. The “war on terror” is a hoax that fronts for American control of oil pipelines, the profits of the military-security complex, the assault on civil liberty by fomenters of a police state, and Israel’s territorial expansion.

There were no al Qaeda in Iraq until the Americans brought them there by invading and overthrowing Saddam Hussein, who kept al Qaeda out of Iraq. The Taliban is not a terrorist organization, but a movement attempting to unify Afghanistan under Muslim law. The only Americans threatened by the Taliban are the Americans Bush sent to Afghanistan to kill Taliban and to impose a puppet state on the Afghan people.

Please try not to pollute the web with more stupidity than you can help, as it is already full to bursting.

Awaiting your response,

Ernest P Marr
Tokyo
Brent
November 9, 2009
11:07 am
Ernest,

I'm not going to address all of your points (as they veer into left wing crazytown), but I will address this one:

"Just correct me on this one would you ? Does "pulling its weight" include financing a lot of the Iraq War, plus buying American t-bills by the billion to finance the U.S. imperial adventures around the globe ?"

The answer to that is, NO, IT DOES NOT. Recycling billions of dollars to artificially keep your currency low, all for the purpose of artificially inflating your exports to the United States does not earn you any points in the US. Japan doesn't (and shouldn't) get credit or "bonus points" for doing something that it would do in any event.

Brent
Roy Berman
November 9, 2009
12:30 pm
Ernest, try not to pollute the web with jack-assery. No matter how valid or not your criticism may be, comments written in such a tone simply do not deserve a response, and I hope that nobody honors you with one.
Bryce
November 9, 2009
2:18 pm
Roy, didn't you just respond to him?

"Because the US refused to wait any longer."

Well, that is kind of the point. That Japan under the LDP took some fifteen years finalizing the details of this plan (and then by most accounts were pushed into bankrolling the Guam relocation by a rather snotty Doanald Rumsfeld) gives the U.S. no cause to nail it to an incoming government that opposes the entire deal. Most of the blame lies with the LDP for stalling and then pushing the agreement through the Diet at what was certain to be the very end of their tenure, but that doesn't mean that the American negotiators (and Hillary Clinton who was probably sent to Japan to make sure Nakasone did actually sign the damned thing--ironic, given that her husband was a master at signing treaties and then leaving it up to the next guy to ratify them) shouldn't be responsible for their share of the mess.
Roy Berman
November 9, 2009
3:04 pm
"her husband was a master at signing treaties and then leaving it up to the next guy to ratify them"
Or to NOT ratify them.
Bryce
November 9, 2009
9:44 pm
Oh dear....

http://www.yomiuri.co.jp/dy/national/20091108TDY02306.htm
http://www.yomiuri.co.jp/politics/news/20091108-OYT1T00567.htm
Admiral
November 9, 2009
10:31 pm
LOL, if there is indeed a person named Ernest Marr living in Tokyo, then the city is even crazier than its reputation suggests.

Lord Curzon, thanks for the excellent analysis. The amateur hour going in the Japanese government reminds me of the one going on at 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue a little too much to feel good about.
James
November 10, 2009
8:51 am
Tell it how it is, Ernest!

Japan must break free from the Illuminati-controlled U.S. government! I just hope that the Hatoyama cabinet has not been infiltrated by reptilian shape shifters, or we are doomed!!
Keeveen
November 10, 2009
9:03 am
There are a number of things I'd like to point out about your last paragraph:

"Japan does not want to have to pay for US bases by sending Japanese SDF forces to Iraq and Afghanistan."

There's no reason they would have to do either. Japan may be facing pressure to join the international peace keeping force growing in Afghanistan (from the international community), but they don't owe the US anything. And let's not forget, Japan has already, at one point, sent troops to Iraq.

"They do not want to be diplomatically fending for themselves while repeating complaints about the North Korean abductions and Russia arresting its fisherman."

This point has some merit, but pulling away from the US and increasing diplomatic talks with China would help in this matter quite a bit (please see below).

"They do not want to push themselves out of the US defensive perimeter, or even in the away direction from the US defensive perimeter. Of course, this may ultimately be good for US national interest, because this is a better time than any to demand Japan to step up to the plate and take a lead in the world."

This 'US defensive perimeter' relies solely on the fact that China and Russia are still the enemy. The conservative types in the US and Japan probably still want to continue with that line of thinking, but the state of the US economy is more likely to determine how this whole situation turns out, anyway.

We're already seeing the US dollar being replaced by the Chinese Renminbi throughout all of Asia, and considering that China owns 23% of US treasury securities and is predicted to show a 8.2% growth in GDP in 2009, Japan might have to pull out of this so-called 'defensive perimeter' out of sheer necessity.

This will really come down to your feelings about a partnership with China, but it's pretty ludicrous to believe that Japan needs to foot US military spending in Japan to be protected from a country that could become an even bigger trading partner in the future.

And as for North Korea, you can guarantee that if Japan was more in line with China, those problems would clear up practically overnight. The bigger question then becomes, would Japan be able to take a hard line against the US in political issues?

I'll sum up my comment with a couple of side notes:
1) For me personally, the idea of a Japan/China partnership (in place of Japan/US) is a scary concept - if only from a very US-centric point of view. It's a completely foreign notion, especially considering the length of the Japan/US partnership since WWII, but to be honest, the shift in policy is only a matter of when, not 'if'; the business opportunities in China are just too great for Japanese manufacturers, specializing in mainly green energy and eco-friendly technologies, to pass up. Plus, increasing debt and zero consideration for the environment in the US mean that Japanese technology/products can probably be better utilized elsewhere.

2) The US has chosen a incredibly poor time to start forcing Japan to do anything. I think that we can all agree that the DPJ is completely indecisive on a large number of issues, but they came to power because Japanese people were sick to death of broken promises and a lack of initiative by the LDP - the US military is just one big chunk of that old status quo. The Japanese people need to figure out where to go from here, but if the US is seen as bullying Japan into making decisions, things are going to go downhill real fast. The US as a whole has no economic legs to stand on at this point, and Japan will have to make a decision of whether to go for protection, or to go where the potential for money is.
spandrell
November 10, 2009
11:08 am
Curzon really sounds... Curzon-like here. Very Victorian.
Brent
November 10, 2009
11:39 am
Keeveen,

Your assertion that Japanese maufacturers "specializing in mainly green energy and eco-friendly technologies" are going to make a killing selling stuff to China, since they can't sell it in the US, which has "zero consideration for the environment " has made my day!

I mean really, that is the most amusing thing I have read all day. Thank you!

Now, to support your point, I leave you with a link to some photos of the beautiful countryside of China, where they protect the environment:

http://lens.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/10/14/showcase-65/?scp=2&sq=china%20pollution&st=cse
Keeveen
November 10, 2009
12:50 pm
Brent, sorry, but you're missing the point. Japanese manufacturers have practically given up on the US and Europe. They don't know how to sell in those markets, and have aimed their sights at the relatively easier to penetrate area of China, SE Asia, and India.

Just as you so wonderfully pointed out, China has a f&$k-ton of improvement to make in terms of the environment, and that is what makes it a particularly important market for manufacturers. Samsung, with the Korean government, has already put into motion its 10-year green strategy, and you better believe they are going to focus on China and India - both of which have populations over a billion people. That means that Japan, with a decade or more of green improvements, has a clear target set for them with the potential for huge sales.

On the other hand, you have the US with an economy reduced to ashes and a population that had green technologies available for over a decade and never did much with it. So yes, Americans are probably more concerned about the environment theoretically speaking, but in terms of business there is no comparison, at least for the time being.

So ignoring your snide comments, please feel free to address my other points.
Ernest P Marr
November 10, 2009
1:28 pm
Thanks for the replies.
Roy, if you don't want people to reply to a post,
perhaps you might consider not replying to it
yourself. Just a thought, you might want to
mull over.

Brent -
What a cop-out to say "i won't address your points
because they are in crazy left-wing country".
very convenient. What you mean is perhaps
you can't refute my comments on the fake
"war on terror" so your resort to ad hominem
remarks. Very clever. You and Roy would get on.
Joe Jones
November 10, 2009
1:39 pm
The "war on terror" should include a few battles against comment trolls. It's only fair.
Ernest P Marr
November 10, 2009
1:55 pm
We all know what a Troll is don't we ? Someone who dares disagree with the author of the article on their blog.

Sorry to spoil your little party, but should all the countries attacked by the U.S. (to name a few -Nicaragua, Honduras, Panama, Haiti, and the Dominican Republic, and all these interventions directly served corporate interests, and many resulted in massive losses of civilians, rebels, and soldiers.) - Joe - be launching a "War on Terror" against U.S. aggression ?

Or, alternatively, should it just be a one-way war against countries who dare
attack the U.S. ?
Curzon
November 10, 2009
2:19 pm
Sorry for the delay, I've been traveling.

Ernest, welcome to CA/MF and thanks for participating. Civil discourse is a prerequisite for a discussion here, as if we can't be polite to one another then the comments quickly degenerate into a scatalogical contest. Accordingly, I'm not sure you have the maturity to participate with the regulars, but you're welcome to keep trying. As it happens, your comment is a scattershot collection of anti-US critiques that don't respond to the substance of my post so it's hard to respond to anything you've written.

Keevee: ignoring your economic points, which all sound pretty loony to me, and I think Bryce's sarcasm (appropriate part of civil discourse!) is on target, but I do want to respond to this:

"but they don't owe the US anything. And let's not forget, Japan has already, at one point, sent troops to Iraq."

Yes, Japan sent non-combat troops to Iraq. At the time, when Koizumi was all gung-ho for anything Bush wanted to do, and had the popular mandate to speak publicly about it, the US loved Japan and publicly didn't substantially ask for anything further. Now that the US is growing more and more indebted, with a PM suspicious of America's bases and foreign policy and hegemony, and pissing off America with unsubstantiated waffling about cancelling a contract, the danger for Japan is that the US is going to start South Koreaifying it's expectations of what Japan should be doing.

Ultimately, it's not what the US or Japan owe each other -- we are not talking about enforceable contracts here with provisions for suing each other for breach and performance -- it's what the US or Japan THINK the other owes them. And the US, which has always thought Japan should be more proactively involved in world affairs, may be on the verge of telling Japan to pony up on real participation. Merely saying that and acting accordingly may be enough to stop the DPJ in it's tracks.
Adamu
November 10, 2009
2:29 pm
Wow, and I thought MF's comments section got nasty sometimes. Keep it civil!
PaxAmericana
November 10, 2009
3:21 pm
Seeing this article, and the comments, reminds me of a marriage that's gone bad. I'm afraid that Japan and the US are heading towards a very cold marriage, where they don't get divorced for the sake of the kids.
Bryce
November 10, 2009
3:21 pm
"And the US, which has always thought Japan should be more proactively involved in world affairs, may be on the verge of telling Japan to pony up on real participation."

And this is the paradox of the whole relationship. If Japan's policy has been based, as you have noted, on maintaining a low profile in international affairs (for whatever reason - to not piss the neighbours off or to make hay while the economic sun shines) while the United States protects Japan (at some domestic cost to the latter and for reasons pertaining to the former's own national interests - let's not veer too far down the "free ride" path here) then what happens to the alliance when Japan does finally "pony up" and become "normal"? What happens to the entire rationale of the alliance as currently configured, and the marines on Okinawa, if Japan can protect itself against most threats?

"the danger for Japan is that the US is going to start South Koreaifying it's expectations of what Japan should be doing. "

I actually think that is what the Hatoyama government wanted from the start, at least for the next few years while it focused on its domestic agenda. Lots of people have been suggesting Japan should be a "middle power", i.e. play up its role as a responsible international citizen, make adequate contributions to overseas international policing missions.... Koizumi's foolishness in Iraq (what did it get Japan, really?) and Abe's vague and unpopular "positive" "pro-U.S." nationalism simply accelerated this trend once they were gone from office. There are a few people in the Diet (Ishiba, Maehara, and maybe even Aso) who think about things in terms of Japan's cold hard national interests, but they are, and always have been, a minority. Japanese politics is pretty much divided at the moment between two sets of romantics. The type who are in love with the United States, and the type who are in love with the world. And perhaps this is what it means to be "normal" these days. Anyway, because of the sloppiness of the former, I think the latter will be in control for a while.
PaxAmericana
November 10, 2009
3:25 pm
What does South Koreaifying mean? Also, does the US really have that kind of leverage to throw around? Japan selling off a fair bit of its US debt is a form of MAD, isn't it?
Bryce
November 10, 2009
3:36 pm
"South Koreaifying": I read it as "ignoring politely". Speaking of which, I wonder what happened to all those predictions from some other quarters of the blogosphere that Japan was going to suffer "benign neglect" from the Obama Administration. All the hoo-hah lately has neither been what I call "benign" nor "neglect".
M-Bone
November 10, 2009
4:23 pm
With Canada, the UK, and Germany looking to dash from Afghanistan as though from a burning building, Obama waffling on just what "involvement" should look like (1 year in, compared to 2 months for the DPJ), and China currently basking in more unadulterated praise from Africa than Japan has ever gotten... is there any reason why Hatoyama and friends shouldn't be having a good long think about what international contributions should look like?
Roy Berman
November 10, 2009
9:39 pm
"We all know what a Troll is don't we ? Someone who dares disagree with the author of the article on their blog. "
A troll is someone who starts their comments by insulting the author of the article instead of discussing the content. Like I said, I may or may not agree with what you said-it's irrelevant because you're a troll.
Ernest P Marr
November 10, 2009
9:58 pm
I'm still waiting for my points to be addressed.

In reference to the comment in the article on Japan's role in the "war on terror".

Tell me please, why would Japan want to be invovled in the illegal occupation
and plunder of two sovereign nations ?

Roy, keep trying. I think you're the troll here.
M-Bone
November 11, 2009
12:04 am
Ernest, if you translate your first post into "non-Troll", perhaps replacing insults with evidence, people here might give you a second chance.
Joe Jones
November 11, 2009
1:39 am
Ernest, how much wood could a woodchuck chuck if a woodchuck could chuck wood?
Ernerst P Marr
November 11, 2009
2:30 am
Thanks for the question ginger boy.


The woodchuck could chuck as much wood as he wanted! By the way what is a woodchuck? Is it like a gopher? This is difficult question to answer. The amount of wood that woodchucks would chuck on a given day varies greatly with the individual woodchuck. According to a Wall Street Journal article, New York State wildlife expert Richard Thomas found that a woodchuck could chuck around 35 cubic feet of dirt in the course of digging a burrow. Thomas reasoned that if a woodchuck could chuck wood, he would chuck an amount equal to 700 pounds.

Some say it depends on three factors:

The woodchuck's desire to chuck said wood.
The woodchuck's need to chuck the aforementioned wood.
The woodchuck's ability to chuck the wood.
Others say:

He would chuck, he would, as much as he could, if a woodchuck could chuck wood.
If he could chuck wood, the woodchuck would chuck as much as he could!
A woodchuck would chuck as much wood as a woodchuck could chuck if a woodchuck could chuck wood.
A woodchuck would chuck all the wood that the woodchuck would chuck if a woodchuck could chuck wood.
If a woodchuck could chuck wood, he would and should chuck wood. But if woodchucks can't chuck wood, they shouldn't and wouldn't chuck wood. Though were I a woodchuck, and I chucked wood, I would chuck wood with the best woodchucks that chucked wood.
If a woodchuck could chuck wood, then s/he'd chuck all the wood, s/he'd chuck and chuck and chuck and chuck, if a woodchuck could chuck wood.
It would chuck the amount of wood that she sells seashells on the seashore divided by how many pickles Peter Piper picks.
One quarter of a sycamore if you give him a quarter for every quarter of the sycamore he cut.
It might depend on how many female woodchucks were present. Or, it could depend on whether the woodchuck's mother-in-law was around or not. If she was, he'd be chucking all day. If not, he'd be watching the football game.
Some maintain that woodchucks could not and would not chuck wood at all.
It depends on how good his dentures are!
A woodchuck, would chuck, as much wood, as a woodchuck, could chuck, If a woodchuck could chuck wood. But unfortunately, woodchucks do not chuck wood.
About 5.72 fluid litres of wood
About as many boards as the Mongol hoards would hoard if the Mongol hordes did hoard boards.
Um....... 23????
Tons. More than you can count. Honestly. No one can chuck more would than a woodchuck.
If the woodchuck's name was Maurice, then it could chuck all the wood that it wanted to. However, if its name is Frank, no chucking would be allowed.
Due to the average size of a wood chuck and the general density of wood (not including cork) if a wood chuck could chuck wood it would probably get through about 6.573 pounds per day, assuming the wood chuck is functioning correctly.
Using the formula: (W + I) * C where W = the constant of wood, which is well known to be 61, as agreed in many scientific circles. I = the variable in this equation, and stands for the word "if" from the original problem. As there are three circumstances, with 0 equaling the chance that the woodchuck cannot chuck wood, 1 being the theory that the woodchuck can chuck wood but chooses not to, and 2 standing for the probability that the woodchuck can and will chuck wood, we clearly must choose 2 for use in this equation. C = the constant of Chuck Norris, whose presence in any problem involving the word chuck must there, is well known to equal 1.1 of any known being, therefore the final part of this calculation is 1.1. As is clear, this appears to give the answer of (61 + 2) * 1.1 = (63) * 1.1 = 69.3 units of wood.
"Sixteen and 1/2 board feet a day except on groundhog's day since groundhog is another name for wood chuck."- This answer is according to no less an authority than the 'Junior Wood Chucks Guidebook', a publication often consulted by Huey, Dewey, and Louie Duck and referred to yet again by them in answering this very same question.
How Chuck Norris got involved-A woodchuck would only chuck as much would as Chuck Norris would allow it to, because the woodchuck shares Chuck's name. Therefore, Chuck must punish it and make it chuck as much wood as Chuck can. So, a woodchuck would chuck as much wood as Chuck could.
None because a wood chuck cannot chuck wood! :P
Approximately 3.9675 pounds every 5.6843 seconds. So there.
2.865 lbs every 11.3686 Seconds?
it depends how good his dentures are!!!
As much as he needed to be satisfied
But the true jokey answer, as told by my grandfather is: As much wood as a woodchuck could chuck, if a woodchuck could chuck wood.
a woodchuck would chuck all the wood he could chuck if a woodchuck could chuck wood
Are you kidding? Everybody knows a woodchuck would chuck as much wood as a woodchuck could chuck if a woodchuck could chuck wood.
But it definitely couldn't chuck Chuck Norris.
A group of people actually did a study on this. None of the wood chucks ate any wood planks so they never upchucked it but some of them chucked them (threw them) at people.


Now... any answers on the war on terror coming ?
Keeveen
November 11, 2009
2:30 am
"ignoring your economic points, which all sound pretty loony to me"

Well, there's not much more to say if all of your points are lumped together as 'loony', but you can see for yourself how much more emphasis Japan places on BRICs and VISTA if you pick up a copy of Denpa Shinbun or Asahi Keizai Shinbun. My previous points aren't really that much of a mystery, at least to the major electronics manufacturers in Japan.

"with a PM suspicious of America's bases and foreign policy and hegemony, and pissing off America with unsubstantiated waffling about cancelling a contract, the danger for Japan is that the US is going to start South Koreaifying it's expectations of what Japan should be doing"

And Bryce is right on the money with his points concerning this: what does happen if Japan pisses off the US and decides to normalize relations? There is enough public support for Japan to start pressing back against these kinds of bullying tactics for more money and cooperation, and the DPJ has already stated that they are looking at revising US support money to fund planks in the DPJ manifesto.

If all of this was so important, why didn't they seal the deal when Bush and Fukuda/Abe/Aso were in charge? This sudden ramp up of posturing by the Obama administration is most likely the result of Obama's miscalculation in appointing a friend/fundraiser to Japan as ambassador. Japan was seen as the submissive partner in the relationship, and now the US has to put the heat on Hatoyama because he's demonstrating that not to be true.
Ernerst P Marr
November 11, 2009
2:55 am
“I can’t answer your questions” = “you are loony”
“how dare you question my article” = “You are a troll!”
Keeveen
November 11, 2009
3:03 am
Ernerst, please stop. I think the posters have made it clear that you started out on the wrong foot by using insults.

I'd rather you not mix my posts into this because I'm actually curious to hear what people have to say about the issue.
Ernerst P Marr
November 11, 2009
3:07 am
OK - point taken.

I am also interested to hear the responses to my questions as to
why Japan should be part of a "war on terror" that doesn't
even exist.
Bryce
November 11, 2009
3:22 am
OK, I'll bite.

"Tell me please, why would Japan want to be invovled in the illegal occupation
and plunder of two sovereign nations ?"

Dude, even the Iranians supported the interim govt of Afghanistan. Of course, they were a lot more moderate back then, despite the funny hats. I think you will find that more than a few liberal leaders as well, including this gentleman , saw Afghanistan as a classic war of self-defence. And being the expert in international law that you are, you will know that UNSCRs back to 2001 mention rooting out terrorism (an abstract concept) in Afghanistan as a priority.

http://www.globalpolicy.org/images/pdfs/sc1386.pdf

By the way, most of the American troops are under the command of ISAF. You know, the UN force sanctioned by the piece of international law I just linked to.

As to why Japan would want to get involved in any of this, here's a quote from Ozawa Ichiro, the man who was once destined to be prime minister:

"Japan became a member (of the U.N.), promising to answer to its every possible demand, to give its full cooperation," Ozawa said. If joining the ISAF activities is unconstitutional, "that would make (Japan) a liar. That would mean that Japan's Constitution and the U.N. Charter are inconsistent."

As for Iraq, well, you can have that one as far as Koizumi's support of the invasion goes, but need I point out that post war reconstruction was sanctioned under international law there too? In fact, Japan's material commitment differed little from many nations that opposed the invasion. I suspect Koizumi also had his reasons for supporting the war. They were probably based less on a sense of international responsibility and more on geopolitical calculations concerning problems Japan was having with one of its neighbours, but that doesn't mean his reasons were any less rational.

Now, unless you have something constructive to add, piss off.
Bryce
November 11, 2009
3:40 am
Keveen, they did seal the deal when Aso was in charge. The problem is that it took them 12 years to do so, and then did it at what looked like (and was) the end of the LDP's run. And "normalising relations" means something else. Becoming "normal" in Japan's case can mean a few things, depending on interpretation, and I would probably even say the way I used it above is not really the way most Japanese see their country as becoming "normal".

http://www.jamestown.org/single/?no_cache=1&tx_ttnews[tt_news]=5098

I just saw that woodchuck thing. I think we know who the biggest douche in the universe is now.
Keeveen
November 11, 2009
3:50 am
Yeah, sorry about the "normalising relations" thing. I didn't really know how else to put it...
Ernerst P Marr
November 11, 2009
3:52 am
A war of self-defense ?
don't make me laugh.
Bryce
November 11, 2009
4:10 am
Is that all you got?

I'm rubber and you are glue...

In any case, UNSCRs 1368 and 1373 both explicitly mention the right of self defence contained in the United Nations Charter in relation to Afghanistan......

So how IS that illegal war argument holding up?
Bryce
November 11, 2009
4:18 am
"in relation to Afghanistan"

or rather, in response to terrorism, again a tactic or an abstract concept that the U.N., the modern arbiter of international law, thought was worth "fighting".
Ernerst P Marr
November 11, 2009
4:22 am
Bryce, I'm not an expert in international law, sarcasm appreciated and all.
I was however an interpreter for Naoko Takato, and a team of doctors from Iraq who came to Japan to discuss the damage done including child mortality rates and water supply infected with DU. So yeah, you could say I am of a certain left-wing persuasion, but with a twist towards, you know, not bombing women and children for the sake of a phony war on terror.

As you are aware though, Japan is constutionally obliged to refrain from aggressive invasions of other nations since the end of WW2. With radiation still causing birth defects among Japanese nationals directly linked to the hiroshima bombing, is it any wonder that many Japanese are now opposed to the bombing of civilian areas ? A shocking outbreak of common sense, but there you go.
To remind you, we are talking about people being killed and maimed even TODAY all in the name of the "war on terror". That means kids and women like your kids and your wife if you have any, albeit BROWN people.
Here's an image for you to ponder over.
http://politicaltheatrics.org/2009/10/20/killing-innocent-afghan-civilians-to-save-our-troops/

In your brain, it may be a worthy cause to bomb civilians of all ages indiscriminately with this year's weapons catalogue, but I happen to be
against this paticular course of action. Need I remind you that drones are now
being used in Waziristan under Obama's watch ?

So forgive me for my reaction to self-styled political bloggers who bandy about terms like "the war on terror" without acknowledging the consquences of this for human life, and expecting Japanese people to support the infliction of the horrors that their ancestors experienced on other soveriegn nations.

Peace
Bryce
November 11, 2009
4:59 am
How to be a douche:

a. inssult everyone in sight
b. ask a question that you don't expect to be answered seriously
c. insult everybody again
c. accuse somebody of latent racism and support of mass murder when he dares to answer your question

I'm sorry, but your question as I saw it concerned

a. the legality of Japan's particpation in two specific wars; and
b. the reasoning behind Japan's involvement in Iraq or possible involvement in Afghanistan

If your question was about why Japan should support an action as immoral as the invasion of Iraq, I would probably simply agree with you. In fact I might point out from earlier comments that it is clear I did not support that particular war. I do however, support the action of the reconstruction teams that went in afterwards, which was the extent of Japan's material involvement. Or are you so glib as to deny your scarred bleeding children shelter and clean water to drink because it was America's immoral war?

In any case, I'm not entirely sure I would trust the judgment of someone who would wittingly walk into a warzone with the deluded and rather egotistical objective of "helping out." I don't think I would trust the judgment of someone who helped her to get her story out either.

I don't need conceited hippies to tell me children die in wars.
Ernerst P Marr
November 11, 2009
5:29 am
"I don't need conceited hippies to tell me children die in wars."

No ? Who do you rely on then, Rush Limbaugh ?
Ernerst P Marr
November 11, 2009
5:30 am
You are the douchebag "Bryce"
Ernerst P Marr
November 11, 2009
5:57 am
b. ask a question that you don't expect to be answered seriously

On the Contrary - I am totally serious about this.

The war on terror is an attempt to project an idea of what America and Britain are for and against, at a time of profound political and moral uncertainty.
So where does Japan fit into this exactly ?

And why should it ?
James
November 11, 2009
6:41 am
I think Mr. Marr is going for the "act like a dick until people ignore me" strategy of argumentation.

When you guys stop responding to his childishly uncivil comments, he can tell himself that he "won" the argument because you couldn't answer his questions.
James
November 11, 2009
7:29 am
By the way: nice touch with the red poppy on the site design.
Younghusband
November 11, 2009
1:25 pm
Thanks James.
Ernerst P Marr
November 11, 2009
11:45 pm
By the way "Bryce" a war is when you have two sides fighting against each other.
Afghanistan and Iraq are invasions / occupations
We use the new weapons on them, they have the old weapons.

So don't get all uppity about "children dying in a war"
there is a big difference.
These are children dying in an invasion and occupation.
M-Bone
November 12, 2009
12:10 am
Not big on the War on Terror, but that whole Taliban murdering women for reading books thing wast really doing it for me either.
Ernerst P Marr
November 12, 2009
12:22 am
M-bone, of course it's not particulalry good.
neither is raping children in Brazaville
or cutting of people's arms in Saudi Arabia.
But we don't invade those countries for some reason
under the pretext of fighting terrorism do we?

Let me apologize for my rudeness. But I can't stand
bloggers being blase about so much unnecessay suffering.
Referring to the "war on terror" as though it is a beach clean-up
that everyone has to lend a hand in.

It's not. It's an invasion and a war on superflous brown people.
If you want to promote democracy start by fair elections at home.
M-Bone
November 12, 2009
12:56 am
"neither is raping children in Brazaville"

But some of the countries that are involved in Afghanistan have sent UN led forces to central Africa.

"cutting of people's arms in Saudi Arabia."

Not big on that either, but I see a difference between that and the Taliban violence - it is judicial and at the very least people are forewarned about consequences. So much of the Taliban violence was/is extrajudicial and focused on what you could call crimes of thought and feeling.

"But I can't stand bloggers being blase about so much unnecessay suffering."

I think that we need to get away from this tendency of people on the left to see interventionists/conservatives as simply bloodthirsty. People who hold those positions, apart from the most extreme examples, still feel something about civilian deaths. Acknowledging that is the way to have dialogue rather than a series of pronouncements.

If you had more Japan grounding, I think that you would perhaps read Curzon's post differently. He's mainly concerned, I believe, with a the future security of a country that very well could be hung out to dry by the pacifist ideals of its constitution. I don't much like the prospect of increased Japanese involvement in the Middle East, but what alternatives do we have to the alliance? Uncritical Japanese support of China - which could very well go next to Saudi Arabia on your list? A nuclear armed Japan? A defenseless one? I'm way bigger on the DPJ than Curzon, but I also want to see a real plan.
Ernerst P Marr
November 12, 2009
1:39 am
how about promoting peace constitutions and making article 9
an ideal for other nations to aspire to ?

Costa Rica and Japan are leading the pack at the moment in this respect.

the peaceful constitution is a safety mechanism as you never know when another
imperial army type zeal will materialize.

as the remaining Hibakushas die off in the next few years,
there has never been a more important time to re-affirm article 9
and the promotion of a peaceful constititution. There is no
other way
M-Bone
November 12, 2009
2:05 am
"How about promoting peace constitutions and making article 9
an ideal for other nations to aspire to ? Costa Rica and Japan are leading the pack at the moment in this respect."

True, but what to do about Japan's heavily armed neighbors who are popularizing the idea that Japan is leading the pack of militarist revival?

"there has never been a more important time to re-affirm article 9
and the promotion of a peaceful constititution."

Something tells me that this is where Japan's public will rests. There should still be a serious discussion, however.
Ernerst P Marr
November 12, 2009
2:53 am
A serious discussion in Japan ? Now that is ambitious.

Presumably there is a powerful corporate zaibatsu lobby for
re-writing the constitution so that the likes of Mitsubishi can
make the most sophisticated weapons in the world.

As long as Japan still educates people from a young age to myopically follow
instructions whatever they are, a peace constitution is needed.
Asia knows it. They have witnessed it first hand, and then suffered the
discourtesy of Japan denying or trivializing it (esp. Comfort Women).

Okinawa is the jewel in the crown and could be the center piece of Japan's
fledgling tourism industry. potentially worth millions of dollars.
It needs to be conserved as the only pristine stretch of coastline left in Japan.

Not relying on U.S. military protection would bring about the necessity for a new era of diplomats who can really make inroads into building peace in Asia.
And besides, with the Americans still armed to the teeth in nearby Korea, and all over the rest of Honshu.
With fortified bases and embassies already springing up accross the middle east, there is no serious argument for keeping bases in Okinawa.
M-Bone
November 12, 2009
3:08 am
I guess without a peace constitution those robotic Japanese will just march right back to war. Maybe they need Marines to keep an eye on them.
Ernerst P Marr
November 12, 2009
3:19 am
You said it, not me
M-Bone
November 12, 2009
3:31 am
You kinda did. I was joking.

You're leftist cred isn't really shining - you just broke out every argument for dominating those shifty, democracy-challenged, atrocity denying, Japanese.

The below was explicitly used as an argument for dropping the bomb. We don't need to see it in 2009.

"As long as Japan still educates people from a young age to myopically follow
instructions whatever they are, a peace constitution is needed. Asia knows it."
Ernerst P Marr
November 12, 2009
3:38 am
OK point taken.
I say leave them to their own devices,
but limit their military capability through
a constitution and hope that others follow suit
Ernerst P Marr
November 12, 2009
3:38 am
the whole point of being nuked is that you have a good excuse
to stay a long way from serious military hardware forever
M-Bone
November 12, 2009
3:44 am
"I say leave them to their own devices, but limit their military capability through
a constitution and hope that others follow suit"

So does this mean you are pro intervention now?
Ernerst P Marr
November 12, 2009
4:58 am
no. I say leave things as they are.
keep the peace constitution,
and as part of the U.S. scaling back bases worldwide
now that they are out of money, scale back Okinawa's bases
too.
not pro-intervention
James
November 12, 2009
11:25 am
The peace constitution is a product of U.S. intervention.
Bryce
November 13, 2009
2:24 am
Geez, this still going?

Ernest, your arguments kind of remind me of the notion that without the Bible there would be no morality in the Western world. That is, the view that if you take away the constitution, rewrite it along the rather sensible lines of "Japan can't go to war with anybody, but it can help out in U.N. peacekeeping missions" or even redefine it, a-la Ozawa to mean that for the purposes of international cooperation, overseas deployment is not just okay, but kind of an obligation, then the Japanese will go crazy and as well as joining whatever invasion their ally tells them to, massacre half of East Asia again.

You live in Tokyo, right? Do you really have so little faith in your friends and neighbours?

You know that the view that the constitution circumscribes the right of Japan to defend itself was given a boost by certain people in Japan who needed a weapon to use against the SDF, which they saw as a tool of state oppression against domestic dissenters, right? You know that when the Diet voted to place an unofficial restriction on overseas deployments of the SDF, the government was extremely careful to point out that such an action had absolutely nothing to do with the constitution, right? So if the constitution allows for participations in missions like ISAF (again U.N. sanctioned, and it does not necessarily imply the need for Japanese combat troops) why are you going on about the constitution, if this is the type of thing you oppose?

"The peace constitution is a product of U.S. intervention."

Well, yes in that the Americans ordered the revision and wrote the draft, but Article 9's genesis is a little more murky than that. Some say it had Japanese origins. And some say the cabinet revised the original wording specifically to allow for self-defence. I'd agree with the former, but probably not the latter, argument. But as far as I can tell the intention of the drafters doesn't carry much legal weight in Japanese jurisprudence. Or does it? Lawyers?
Joseph Steinberg
November 15, 2009
11:45 am
What about Zbigniew Brzezinski's geopolitical flip: “Unlike China, which can seek global power by first becoming a regional power, Japan can gain global influence by eschewing the quest for regional power.”

President Obama enjoys solid personal popularity, but without deft handling, Japanese popular support for the US is soft. It's based more on the possibility of American culture, a sort of non-fungible soft power that's unrealistic for those dreaming it, and unrealistic for the object of love to cash in. Identifying with pols in Okinawa or Tokyo is bad for Washington. Washington should support political reform, with all its teething plans, as long as the Hatoyama administration is willing to compromise on money for Afghanistan. As a matter of policy, Washington should allow Beijing, Seoul, and Tokyo to be the glue in the international economic system, and give them public accolades. The US needs to rebuild infrastructure, rebuild savings, and generally take a break. Tokyo can take up the slack. A few INGO reforms and the judicious use of foreign investments in the US economy is a small price to pay for three decades of finance capitalism.
‘Bara-Yuki” « Left Flank
November 15, 2009
12:20 pm
[...] wasn’t love at first sight, or a complete disaster. Pheeewww! I just don’t understand conservative fretting over Japan’s “college kid” [...]
Aceface
November 15, 2009
2:17 pm
Notice Brzezinski used "influence" for Japan and "power" for China.
No power.no influence.And you can only project power beyond your borders only after you pacify your borders.Unlike the U.S,China is being surrounded by regional powers like Japan,Russia and India.It needs to be a regional hegemon first and since Brzezinski has VERY distinctive political bias,an avid Rossophobe that is,he does welcome China becoming power in Eurasia that contains Russia.

Also Brzezinski had written a book published in Japan only back in the early 90's with a strange term called "Amerippon",that predates the current "Chiamerica" created by Niall Ferguson,and proclaimed Japan to remain as defacto American protectorate to serve it's own national interest.
Joseph Steinberg
November 15, 2009
9:55 pm
Are you accusing Brzezinski of inconstancy? Boilerplate?

Aren't Beijing, Seoul, and Tokyo right to call for more security when they are supporting more of the international economic system now?
Aceface
November 16, 2009
12:05 pm
Both.

supporting international economic system is one thing,geopolitics is another.You can get along with China on former,but not the latter.
Joseph Steinberg
November 17, 2009
12:34 am
I think this is where two axes of perspective diverge. This article concentrates on security, but slights the economic dimension. I can accept the view, that security is a requisite for economics, but it the first can;t trump the latter. At some point, bad economics comes back around to bite security in the butt. The DPJ might just re-examine how economics is done in Japan. Now, the US needs to take notice, as it's working its way through recession.