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	<title>Comments on: It has been determined that these books are not for&#160;you</title>
	<atom:link href="http://cominganarchy.com/2009/10/12/book-ban-map/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://cominganarchy.com/2009/10/12/book-ban-map/</link>
	<description>Speak Victorian, Think Pagan</description>
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		<title>By: Munro Ferguson</title>
		<link>http://cominganarchy.com/2009/10/12/book-ban-map/comment-page-1/#comment-391295</link>
		<dc:creator>Munro Ferguson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 Oct 2009 02:13:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cominganarchy.com/?p=6999#comment-391295</guid>
		<description>Cirby, I don&#039;t do &quot;stupid agendas.&quot; I have neither the inclination nor the patience.
Yes, I know we have some fairly easy legal definitions. It&#039;s generally the case that a person under the age of eighteen is considered a child. By that measure your assertion that &quot;a child is just that: a child&quot; suggests that there lies zero difference in intellectual maturity between that of an eight year old and a sixteen year old. Hence my reaction, that such an assertion is a generalization.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Cirby, I don&#8217;t do &#8220;stupid agendas.&#8221; I have neither the inclination nor the patience.<br />
Yes, I know we have some fairly easy legal definitions. It&#8217;s generally the case that a person under the age of eighteen is considered a child. By that measure your assertion that &#8220;a child is just that: a child&#8221; suggests that there lies zero difference in intellectual maturity between that of an eight year old and a sixteen year old. Hence my reaction, that such an assertion is a generalization.</p>]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: sg</title>
		<link>http://cominganarchy.com/2009/10/12/book-ban-map/comment-page-1/#comment-391290</link>
		<dc:creator>sg</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 Oct 2009 21:20:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cominganarchy.com/?p=6999#comment-391290</guid>
		<description>A library or school library only has so many $.  It can&#039;t buy every book.  
How many of these were really just passed over in favor of better stuff?  


Same with curriculum.  Zillions of books and only two semesters per year. You can&#039;t read them all.  One could easily argue that other books have more educational value than these.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A library or school library only has so many $.  It can&#8217;t buy every book.  <br />
How many of these were really just passed over in favor of better stuff?  </p>


<p>Same with curriculum.  Zillions of books and only two semesters per year. You can&#8217;t read them all.  One could easily argue that other books have more educational value than these.</p>]]></content:encoded>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Peter</title>
		<link>http://cominganarchy.com/2009/10/12/book-ban-map/comment-page-1/#comment-391279</link>
		<dc:creator>Peter</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 Oct 2009 10:05:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cominganarchy.com/?p=6999#comment-391279</guid>
		<description>That map lead me to search for this site:
http://home.nvg.org/~aga/bulletin43.html

Interesting that so many classic books would be banned for the reasons stated.   I agree with Sejo&#039;s last comment on that.

Given the standards for banning some of these books, it&#039;s a wonder that the Bible itself hasn&#039;t been banned (although The Living Bible has...)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That map lead me to search for this site:<br />
<a href="http://home.nvg.org/~aga/bulletin43.html">http://home.nvg.org/~aga/bulletin43.html</a></p>

<p>Interesting that so many classic books would be banned for the reasons stated.   I agree with Sejo&#8217;s last comment on that.</p>

<p>Given the standards for banning some of these books, it&#8217;s a wonder that the Bible itself hasn&#8217;t been banned (although The Living Bible has&#8230;)</p>]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: cirby</title>
		<link>http://cominganarchy.com/2009/10/12/book-ban-map/comment-page-1/#comment-391262</link>
		<dc:creator>cirby</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 18 Oct 2009 18:37:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cominganarchy.com/?p=6999#comment-391262</guid>
		<description>Chainsaw:
Now, most of the things you list are not controversial.  What IS controversial is people making the claims you list. 

Munro:
Not so much of a generalization.  We have some fairly easy legal definitions.  For example, if you still have to go to school by law, that&#039;s a fair guideline.  The only time people have trouble with &quot;that&#039;s a child&quot; is when they&#039;re trying really, really hard to push one or more stupid agendas.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Chainsaw:<br />
Now, most of the things you list are not controversial.  What IS controversial is people making the claims you list. </p>

<p>Munro:<br />
Not so much of a generalization.  We have some fairly easy legal definitions.  For example, if you still have to go to school by law, that&#8217;s a fair guideline.  The only time people have trouble with &#8220;that&#8217;s a child&#8221; is when they&#8217;re trying really, really hard to push one or more stupid agendas.</p>]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Munro Ferguson</title>
		<link>http://cominganarchy.com/2009/10/12/book-ban-map/comment-page-1/#comment-391247</link>
		<dc:creator>Munro Ferguson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 17 Oct 2009 00:53:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cominganarchy.com/?p=6999#comment-391247</guid>
		<description>Define &quot;children.&quot; At what level of curriculum were these books removed? Sorry but &quot;A child is just that: a child&quot; is a bit of a generalization.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Define &#8220;children.&#8221; At what level of curriculum were these books removed? Sorry but &#8220;A child is just that: a child&#8221; is a bit of a generalization.</p>]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Chainsaw</title>
		<link>http://cominganarchy.com/2009/10/12/book-ban-map/comment-page-1/#comment-391233</link>
		<dc:creator>Chainsaw</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 15 Oct 2009 18:03:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cominganarchy.com/?p=6999#comment-391233</guid>
		<description>&gt;keep the curriculum noncontroversial

Sure thing, but...
Capitalism is controversial
Almost all of American History is controversial
If there are fundamentalists in the district, ALL SCIENCE is controversial.
The scientific method itself is controversial
The Nobel Prize winners in Economics got the prize for saying, basically, that economics is storytelling, not science.  Is this controversial?
And so on...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&gt;keep the curriculum noncontroversial</p>

<p>Sure thing, but&#8230;<br />
Capitalism is controversial<br />
Almost all of American History is controversial<br />
If there are fundamentalists in the district, <span class="caps">ALL SCIENCE </span>is controversial.<br />
The scientific method itself is controversial<br />
The Nobel Prize winners in Economics got the prize for saying, basically, that economics is storytelling, not science.  Is this controversial?<br />
And so on&#8230;</p>]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: cirby</title>
		<link>http://cominganarchy.com/2009/10/12/book-ban-map/comment-page-1/#comment-391231</link>
		<dc:creator>cirby</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 15 Oct 2009 12:21:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cominganarchy.com/?p=6999#comment-391231</guid>
		<description>Younghusband said:
&quot;Yes, this is for kids but also public libraries. &quot;

...and in the graphic, there&#039;s a total of one actual public library &quot;challenge&quot; (rejected) and one case of someone taking a book and keeping it as a protest (the library has four other copies now due to donations by other patrons).

Most of the rest of the list consists of failed &quot;challenges&quot; with a few &quot;what moron put that in the curriculum?&quot; cases.  Seventeen successful removals from curriculum or from school libraries (almost all of them &quot;adult&quot; or sexually explicit in one form or another).  Out of a country of over 300 million people.  Over two and a half years.  From looking at the books they challenged, the books had no business being in the schools&#039; curriculum in the first place.

Younghusband again:  &quot;Yes, but their parents are adults, and should be the ones making the decisions.&quot;

How about &quot;keep the curriculum noncontroversial and nonexplicit, and if parents want their kids to read something like &#039;Child of God,&#039; they go get it at a bookstore and teach it themselves?&quot;  By including such titles in the curriculum without comment, you&#039;re taking control away from the parents, not giving them any.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Younghusband said:<br />
&#8220;Yes, this is for kids but also public libraries. &#8220;</p>

<p>&#8230;and in the graphic, there&#8217;s a total of one actual public library &#8220;challenge&#8221; (rejected) and one case of someone taking a book and keeping it as a protest (the library has four other copies now due to donations by other patrons).</p>

<p>Most of the rest of the list consists of failed &#8220;challenges&#8221; with a few &#8220;what moron put that in the curriculum?&#8221; cases.  Seventeen successful removals from curriculum or from school libraries (almost all of them &#8220;adult&#8221; or sexually explicit in one form or another).  Out of a country of over 300 million people.  Over two and a half years.  From looking at the books they challenged, the books had no business being in the schools&#8217; curriculum in the first place.</p>

<p>Younghusband again:  &#8220;Yes, but their parents are adults, and should be the ones making the decisions.&#8221;</p>

<p>How about &#8220;keep the curriculum noncontroversial and nonexplicit, and if parents want their kids to read something like &#8216;Child of God,&#8217; they go get it at a bookstore and teach it themselves?&#8221;  By including such titles in the curriculum without comment, you&#8217;re taking control away from the parents, not giving them any.</p>]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Roy Berman</title>
		<link>http://cominganarchy.com/2009/10/12/book-ban-map/comment-page-1/#comment-391211</link>
		<dc:creator>Roy Berman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 15 Oct 2009 06:14:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cominganarchy.com/?p=6999#comment-391211</guid>
		<description>That is, it would be a logical mistake to make.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That is, it would be a logical mistake to make.</p>]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Roy Berman</title>
		<link>http://cominganarchy.com/2009/10/12/book-ban-map/comment-page-1/#comment-391210</link>
		<dc:creator>Roy Berman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 15 Oct 2009 06:14:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cominganarchy.com/?p=6999#comment-391210</guid>
		<description>Um, not exactly. I&#039;m saying Newspaper is completely wrong about the law today, but his interpretation would be reasonable if, for some reason, he was only reading the initial version of the constitution, before all of the post- Bill of Rights amendments.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Um, not exactly. I&#8217;m saying Newspaper is completely wrong about the law today, but his interpretation would be reasonable if, for some reason, he was only reading the initial version of the constitution, before all of the post- Bill of Rights amendments.</p>]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Curzon</title>
		<link>http://cominganarchy.com/2009/10/12/book-ban-map/comment-page-1/#comment-391209</link>
		<dc:creator>Curzon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Oct 2009 23:02:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cominganarchy.com/?p=6999#comment-391209</guid>
		<description>So by Roy logic, I am right when I say blacks are slaves and women can&#039;t vote.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>So by Roy logic, I am right when I say blacks are slaves and women can&#8217;t vote.</p>]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Roy Berman</title>
		<link>http://cominganarchy.com/2009/10/12/book-ban-map/comment-page-1/#comment-391207</link>
		<dc:creator>Roy Berman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Oct 2009 16:45:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cominganarchy.com/?p=6999#comment-391207</guid>
		<description>Newspaper is sort of correct, at least prior to the passage of the 14th Amendment.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incorporation_%28Bill_of_Rights%29

As it says here, in 1833 the Supreme Court ruled that the bill of rights DOES only apply to the federal government, but after the civil war the trend was towards increased power of the federal government at the expense of the states, and the post reconstruction 14th amendment was used as justification for the 1890s-era supreme court to apply the bill of rights to the states. So in short, Newspaper is correct as far as the constitution was written, but he&#039;s about 120 years out of date.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Newspaper is sort of correct, at least prior to the passage of the 14th Amendment.</p>

<p><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incorporation_%28Bill_of_Rights%29">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incorporation_%28Bill_of_Rights%29</a></p>

<p>As it says here, in 1833 the Supreme Court ruled that the bill of rights <span class="caps">DOES </span>only apply to the federal government, but after the civil war the trend was towards increased power of the federal government at the expense of the states, and the post reconstruction 14th amendment was used as justification for the 1890s-era supreme court to apply the bill of rights to the states. So in short, Newspaper is correct as far as the constitution was written, but he&#8217;s about 120 years out of date.</p>]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Curzon</title>
		<link>http://cominganarchy.com/2009/10/12/book-ban-map/comment-page-1/#comment-391202</link>
		<dc:creator>Curzon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Oct 2009 09:04:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cominganarchy.com/?p=6999#comment-391202</guid>
		<description>Newspaper, I&#039;m not sure where you&#039;re going with that comment but it sounds terrifying -- the bill of rights applies to the federal government but not to the states??  I&#039;m glad that extreme minority view of constitutional protections is not accepted by any court.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Newspaper, I&#8217;m not sure where you&#8217;re going with that comment but it sounds terrifying &#8212; the bill of rights applies to the federal government but not to the states??  I&#8217;m glad that extreme minority view of constitutional protections is not accepted by any court.</p>]]></content:encoded>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Younghusband</title>
		<link>http://cominganarchy.com/2009/10/12/book-ban-map/comment-page-1/#comment-391201</link>
		<dc:creator>Younghusband</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Oct 2009 06:47:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cominganarchy.com/?p=6999#comment-391201</guid>
		<description>Yes, this is for kids but also &lt;em&gt;public&lt;/em&gt; libraries.

Anyways, I can&#039;t get over how many bans and curriculum challenges there are in the first place. Like the (bad) example Cirby talked about, I would expect teachers and parents to use their judgement on a case-by-case basis. Cirby said:

&lt;blockquote&gt;Children are just that: children. They&#039;re not little adults…&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Yes, but their parents are adults, and should be the ones making the decisions. A blanket ban is simply retarded. The kids have access to much worse stuff on the internet. Lobbying for a ban is also reprehensible. Like I want &lt;em&gt;other parents&lt;/em&gt; to choose what my kid cannot read.

Let&#039;s have some more parenting, please.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes, this is for kids but also <em>public</em> libraries.</p>

<p>Anyways, I can&#8217;t get over how many bans and curriculum challenges there are in the first place. Like the (bad) example Cirby talked about, I would expect teachers and parents to use their judgement on a case-by-case basis. Cirby said:</p>

<blockquote>Children are just that: children. They&#8217;re not little adults&acirc;&brvbar;</blockquote>

<p>Yes, but their parents are adults, and should be the ones making the decisions. A blanket ban is simply retarded. The kids have access to much worse stuff on the internet. Lobbying for a ban is also reprehensible. Like I want <em>other parents</em> to choose what my kid cannot read.</p>

<p>Let&#8217;s have some more parenting, please.</p>]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: newspaper</title>
		<link>http://cominganarchy.com/2009/10/12/book-ban-map/comment-page-1/#comment-391200</link>
		<dc:creator>newspaper</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 Oct 2009 16:52:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cominganarchy.com/?p=6999#comment-391200</guid>
		<description>The First Amendment applies to the Federal government.  States and, by extension, local jurisdictions should be able to do whatever is not expressly prohibited by the Constitution or &quot;legal&quot; laws.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The First Amendment applies to the Federal government.  States and, by extension, local jurisdictions should be able to do whatever is not expressly prohibited by the Constitution or &#8220;legal&#8221; laws.</p>]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: UNRR</title>
		<link>http://cominganarchy.com/2009/10/12/book-ban-map/comment-page-1/#comment-391197</link>
		<dc:creator>UNRR</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 Oct 2009 12:14:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cominganarchy.com/?p=6999#comment-391197</guid>
		<description>This post has been linked for the HOT5 Daily 10/13/2009, at &lt;a href=&quot;http://unreligiousright.blogspot.com/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;The Unreligious Right&lt;/a&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This post has been linked for the <span class="caps">HOT5</span> Daily 10/13/2009, at <a href="http://unreligiousright.blogspot.com/">The Unreligious Right</a></p>]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Sejo</title>
		<link>http://cominganarchy.com/2009/10/12/book-ban-map/comment-page-1/#comment-391196</link>
		<dc:creator>Sejo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 Oct 2009 08:54:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cominganarchy.com/?p=6999#comment-391196</guid>
		<description>I’m sure you all do not mean “The Adventures of Huckleberry Finn” and “Of Mice and Men” as books that teenagers shouldn’t read: the first is a great read for a kid while the second – at least in my opinion – is highly formative for a high school student.
And above all, I do not think that the communities, or the institutions, should have the right to decide. That is up to the parents of every single child. I surely do not want any politician telling me what&#039;s best and what not to raise and educate the persons I am paying to feed, grow, learn – and to which I gave life. No no.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&acirc;m sure you all do not mean &acirc;The Adventures of Huckleberry Finn&acirc; and &acirc;Of Mice and Men&acirc; as books that teenagers shouldn&acirc;t read: the first is a great read for a kid while the second &acirc; at least in my opinion &acirc; is highly formative for a high school student.<br />
And above all, I do not think that the communities, or the institutions, should have the right to decide. That is up to the parents of every single child. I surely do not want any politician telling me what&#8217;s best and what not to raise and educate the persons I am paying to feed, grow, learn &acirc; and to which I gave life. No no.</p>]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: T. Greer</title>
		<link>http://cominganarchy.com/2009/10/12/book-ban-map/comment-page-1/#comment-391195</link>
		<dc:creator>T. Greer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 Oct 2009 05:55:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cominganarchy.com/?p=6999#comment-391195</guid>
		<description>I agree with the previous three commentators, and will add that the Supreme Court has yet to extend the First Amendment to community libraries.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree with the previous three commentators, and will add that the Supreme Court has yet to extend the First Amendment to community libraries.</p>]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Scott</title>
		<link>http://cominganarchy.com/2009/10/12/book-ban-map/comment-page-1/#comment-391194</link>
		<dc:creator>Scott</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 Oct 2009 03:17:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cominganarchy.com/?p=6999#comment-391194</guid>
		<description>This ridiculous trope crops up every year, thanks to some bunch of do-gooder booksellers trying to drum up business.  There&#039;s not a book on that list that I couldn&#039;t buy, beg, or borrow tomorrow.  A fair number are or were in my library.  &quot;Child of God&quot; is the perfect example of the lunacy on display here.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This ridiculous trope crops up every year, thanks to some bunch of do-gooder booksellers trying to drum up business.  There&#8217;s not a book on that list that I couldn&#8217;t buy, beg, or borrow tomorrow.  A fair number are or were in my library.  &#8220;Child of God&#8221; is the perfect example of the lunacy on display here.</p>]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: cirby</title>
		<link>http://cominganarchy.com/2009/10/12/book-ban-map/comment-page-1/#comment-391186</link>
		<dc:creator>cirby</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 Oct 2009 16:40:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cominganarchy.com/?p=6999#comment-391186</guid>
		<description>I agree with Kurt9.

Children are just that: children.  They&#039;re not little adults, and they don&#039;t need to have quite the same access to literature that adults have.  Quite a few books shown on the map are not, by any stretch, suitable for schoolchildren.

Many are not even &quot;banned,&quot; per se.  They&#039;re just &quot;curriculum challenges,&quot; where people don&#039;t think the books involved need to be taught as part of the normal schoolwork.

Of the ones that are outright banned, how about Cormac McCarthy&#039;s &quot;Child of God,&quot; which just happens to include pedophilia and necrophilia?  I don&#039;t think schoolkids (yes, even high school students) should have that sitting in the school library, or allowed to be used in class (in this case, a 14 year old kid used it for a book report - the teacher should have just said &quot;no, pick something more appropriate for your age group, and take this note to your parents for a parent-teacher conference&quot;).  Not exactly a sterling example of &quot;book banning.&quot;  This case calls into question the provenance of the entire list...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree with Kurt9.</p>

<p>Children are just that: children.  They&#8217;re not little adults, and they don&#8217;t need to have quite the same access to literature that adults have.  Quite a few books shown on the map are not, by any stretch, suitable for schoolchildren.</p>

<p>Many are not even &#8220;banned,&#8221; per se.  They&#8217;re just &#8220;curriculum challenges,&#8221; where people don&#8217;t think the books involved need to be taught as part of the normal schoolwork.</p>

<p>Of the ones that are outright banned, how about Cormac McCarthy&#8217;s &#8220;Child of God,&#8221; which just happens to include pedophilia and necrophilia?  I don&#8217;t think schoolkids (yes, even high school students) should have that sitting in the school library, or allowed to be used in class (in this case, a 14 year old kid used it for a book report &#8211; the teacher should have just said &#8220;no, pick something more appropriate for your age group, and take this note to your parents for a parent-teacher conference&#8221;).  Not exactly a sterling example of &#8220;book banning.&#8221;  This case calls into question the provenance of the entire list&#8230;</p>]]></content:encoded>
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	<item>
		<title>By: kurt9</title>
		<link>http://cominganarchy.com/2009/10/12/book-ban-map/comment-page-1/#comment-391185</link>
		<dc:creator>kurt9</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 Oct 2009 15:44:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cominganarchy.com/?p=6999#comment-391185</guid>
		<description>Your article on book banning is misleading. These examples of book banning are either in the public schools or public libraries. None of them are attempts to prevent adults from reading whatever they want. I agree with you that such book banning is reprehensible. However, I think you need to be more clear that this is really about limiting what kids read, not adults.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Your article on book banning is misleading. These examples of book banning are either in the public schools or public libraries. None of them are attempts to prevent adults from reading whatever they want. I agree with you that such book banning is reprehensible. However, I think you need to be more clear that this is really about limiting what kids read, not adults.</p>]]></content:encoded>
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