Comments on: Timeline of World Religions, Beta http://cominganarchy.com/2009/07/09/timeline-of-world-religions-beta/ Speak Victorian, Think Pagan Wed, 21 Nov 2012 23:12:46 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.7.1 By: Eric http://cominganarchy.com/2009/07/09/timeline-of-world-religions-beta/comment-page-2/#comment-390243 Tue, 21 Jul 2009 04:36:47 +0000 http://cominganarchy.com/?p=6302#comment-390243 Why does the Mayan/Olmec religion stop at 0? Shouldn’t that continue until the 1500s?

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By: Chris Swanson http://cominganarchy.com/2009/07/09/timeline-of-world-religions-beta/comment-page-2/#comment-390236 Tue, 21 Jul 2009 02:30:46 +0000 http://cominganarchy.com/?p=6302#comment-390236 Blah. Thank god I’m an atheist. ;) That said, nicely done chart! :D

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By: Lexington Green http://cominganarchy.com/2009/07/09/timeline-of-world-religions-beta/comment-page-2/#comment-390174 Thu, 16 Jul 2009 14:18:12 +0000 http://cominganarchy.com/?p=6302#comment-390174 Roy, no. The Copts broke away on doctrinal grounds.

At this point, we see a lot of talk among the “Oriental” churches and the Orthodox and even with the Catholics, about uniting in some way.

It has more to do with avoiding extinction at the hands of their Muslim neighbors.

This dynamic has happened in the past. There are numerous non-Western “rites” within the Catholic Church that on their face are indistinguishable from Orthodoxy, for example. I have been to Byzantine Rite Catholic services, and it is entirely Eastern in appearance.

But the Coptic Church is important because for over a thousand years it preserved Christianity in one of its original heartlands, Egypt.

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By: Roy Berman http://cominganarchy.com/2009/07/09/timeline-of-world-religions-beta/comment-page-2/#comment-390163 Wed, 15 Jul 2009 23:04:05 +0000 http://cominganarchy.com/?p=6302#comment-390163 Re: The Coptic Church,

“Since the 1980s theologians from the Oriental (Non-Chalcedonian) Orthodox and Eastern (Chalcedonian) Orthodox churches have been meeting in a bid to resolve theological differences, and have concluded that many of the differences are caused by the two groups using different terminology to describe the same thing”

While the Coptic and Eastern Church are indisputably different religious organizations, if they themselves consider their theological differences to be so minor, I’m not sure they necessarily qualify as different religions. On the other hand, the fact that they kept the Ancient Egyptian language alive all those centuries in the form of their liturgical Coptic language, provides a rather significant differentiating factor.

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By: Dan Nexon http://cominganarchy.com/2009/07/09/timeline-of-world-religions-beta/comment-page-2/#comment-390158 Wed, 15 Jul 2009 19:43:34 +0000 http://cominganarchy.com/?p=6302#comment-390158 Also, if you want to trace back to periods when contemporary “forms” of a religion would be barely recognizable to their current adherents, than Taosim is *much* older than the emergence of the Tao Te Ching.

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By: Dan Nexon http://cominganarchy.com/2009/07/09/timeline-of-world-religions-beta/comment-page-2/#comment-390157 Wed, 15 Jul 2009 19:40:03 +0000 http://cominganarchy.com/?p=6302#comment-390157 A nice effort, but this doesn’t really work. Too many issues of exclusion/inclusion, problems from the tendency of contemporaries to clump various “pagan” and “polytheistic” faiths together, and issues of relationship (Orthodoxy as offshoot of Holy Catholic Church? Very Rome-centric). Lots of missing (and significant) strands of Christianity, some of Islam, etc. And that’s before we get into the issues of creating these unbroken “lines” for religions like Judaism, Christianity, Hinduism etc. etc.

Still, a very nice effort.

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By: Lexington Green http://cominganarchy.com/2009/07/09/timeline-of-world-religions-beta/comment-page-2/#comment-390154 Wed, 15 Jul 2009 15:21:48 +0000 http://cominganarchy.com/?p=6302#comment-390154 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coptic_Orthodox_Church_of_Alexandria

The Coptic Orthodox Church broke away at the time of the Council of Chalcedon.

This was the church of the majority of Egyptians, and is still the church of the majority of Egyptian Christians.

I think it is a big enough community to merit inclusion on the chart.

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By: Erik van Luxzenburg http://cominganarchy.com/2009/07/09/timeline-of-world-religions-beta/comment-page-2/#comment-390114 Tue, 14 Jul 2009 10:17:34 +0000 http://cominganarchy.com/?p=6302#comment-390114 Isn’t Shikism an offshoot of both Hinduism and Islam? As far a I remember it combines elements of both religions and tried to merge them in some sort of fusion-religion.

Furthermore an comprehensive canon. Also the comments bring much insight. Such as Curzon’s: Greek pagan religion survives thanks to Alexander in tiny corners of Central Asia…. does it still survive or was it also wiped out in the 6th century?

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By: kurt9 http://cominganarchy.com/2009/07/09/timeline-of-world-religions-beta/comment-page-2/#comment-390102 Mon, 13 Jul 2009 22:54:33 +0000 http://cominganarchy.com/?p=6302#comment-390102 What kind of religions do you think we will have a thousand years from now? Is it not likely that there will be many new religions by then?

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By: M-Bone http://cominganarchy.com/2009/07/09/timeline-of-world-religions-beta/comment-page-2/#comment-390090 Mon, 13 Jul 2009 07:38:14 +0000 http://cominganarchy.com/?p=6302#comment-390090 Buddhisim has some 道s in it, however, like 修験道 (okay, that’s a bit 神道 too). There is something wonderfuly pluralist about the 道 concept, of course starting with 道教. If I was flippant earlier, it is because I don’t like the idea of seeing dogma as a sort of “qualification” and the pluralism of the 道 religions as a weakness. Let’s face it, attempts to codify Shinto were shit.

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By: Roy Berman http://cominganarchy.com/2009/07/09/timeline-of-world-religions-beta/comment-page-2/#comment-390089 Mon, 13 Jul 2009 07:21:22 +0000 http://cominganarchy.com/?p=6302#comment-390089 “Shinto isn’t even an “ism” in Japanese.”
Not etymologically, but “way of xxx” is more or less the old fashioned way of saying something similar. After all, “ism” is a neologism in Japanese, translated in the 19th century from “ism” in European languages. On the other hand, Confucianism and Buddhism are 教 (teaching) not 道(way of). And then there’s 道教…

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By: M-Bone http://cominganarchy.com/2009/07/09/timeline-of-world-religions-beta/comment-page-2/#comment-390076 Sun, 12 Jul 2009 21:05:22 +0000 http://cominganarchy.com/?p=6302#comment-390076 No individual religion named in that last paragraph. Plus the words “much of what is in religious discourse”.

“attempting to be non-judgmental about what is in these different religious traditions”

Some comments are very judgemental – clearly dismissing things like early Shinto and similar traditions behind a taxonomy that favors…. what exactly?

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By: sniv http://cominganarchy.com/2009/07/09/timeline-of-world-religions-beta/comment-page-2/#comment-390073 Sun, 12 Jul 2009 18:30:43 +0000 http://cominganarchy.com/?p=6302#comment-390073 Interesting. Thsnks. What are the chances of posting a hi-res version? 46 kbytes hardly does your effort justice, or did I miss soemthing? Also, it seems that pre-historic findings in anthropology might provide good additional prespective. Maybe that’s outside your intent… Thanks again.

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By: Alfred Russel Wallace http://cominganarchy.com/2009/07/09/timeline-of-world-religions-beta/comment-page-2/#comment-390066 Sun, 12 Jul 2009 14:58:25 +0000 http://cominganarchy.com/?p=6302#comment-390066 Oh M-Bone… Your last paragraph!!! Surely one of many nice things about this effort is that it is attempting to be non-judgmental about what is in these different religious traditions. Rather it is reporting what millions of adherents profess…. We do need a taxonomy to decide what qualifies as a religion, and a reasonable reproducible canon, even if not written down, seems a sensible place to start.. Only once we’ve drawn some boundaries can we begin to debate (politely I hope), exactly what qualifies as belief, myth, etc., and what distinguishes, or unites, them.

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By: M-Bone http://cominganarchy.com/2009/07/09/timeline-of-world-religions-beta/comment-page-1/#comment-390059 Sun, 12 Jul 2009 10:15:40 +0000 http://cominganarchy.com/?p=6302#comment-390059 “I guess I am assuming that to qualify as an -ism, it has to have a coherent set of canon.”

Shinto isn’t even an “ism” in Japanese.

“A little generous on Shintoism. Japan did not have a writing system until much later so it’s hard to say that Shintoism started that far back.”

One word – archaeology.
For Judiasm, for example, we are pretty certain that everything we have of the bible was written after the 8th century BC. We aren’t even sure what kinds of Hebrew laws would have existed in actual old school biblical times – before 1000 BC or so.

Anyway, much of what is in religious discourse is a bunch of baloney anyway so should it really make a big difference if that baloney is legitimized in a written canon or not? Can we really make judgements like “Oh, your totally irrational exclusive, racisit, homophobic mytho-nationalism is written down, so its in!”

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By: Roy Berman http://cominganarchy.com/2009/07/09/timeline-of-world-religions-beta/comment-page-1/#comment-390054 Sun, 12 Jul 2009 08:25:01 +0000 http://cominganarchy.com/?p=6302#comment-390054 I’m also unsure about the appropriateness of listing Zionisn and anti-Zionism. While both are inseparably linked to Judaism, Zionism was historically more of a secular Jewish political movement than a religions one. As far as I know, the disagreements between Zionists and anti-Zionists are almost exclusively non-theological, with the notable exception of the anti-Zionist Hassids, who believe that Aliyah before the coming of the Messiah is a sin.

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By: Curzon http://cominganarchy.com/2009/07/09/timeline-of-world-religions-beta/comment-page-1/#comment-390052 Sun, 12 Jul 2009 04:35:05 +0000 http://cominganarchy.com/?p=6302#comment-390052 Lex: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shinto#Yayoi_period_.28300_BCE-250.29

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By: Lexington Green http://cominganarchy.com/2009/07/09/timeline-of-world-religions-beta/comment-page-1/#comment-390051 Sun, 12 Jul 2009 01:46:51 +0000 http://cominganarchy.com/?p=6302#comment-390051 A friend who possesses expertise had this comment, which I pass on for your consideration.

“A little generous on Shintoism. Japan did not have a writing system until much later so it’s hard to say that Shintoism started that far back. I guess I am assuming that to qualify as an -ism, it has to have a coherent set of canon.”

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By: George1 http://cominganarchy.com/2009/07/09/timeline-of-world-religions-beta/comment-page-1/#comment-390050 Sun, 12 Jul 2009 00:10:58 +0000 http://cominganarchy.com/?p=6302#comment-390050 Note that “Church” is still spelled “chuch” in your final version.

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By: von Moltke http://cominganarchy.com/2009/07/09/timeline-of-world-religions-beta/comment-page-1/#comment-390047 Sat, 11 Jul 2009 17:59:12 +0000 http://cominganarchy.com/?p=6302#comment-390047 Protestantism began around 1400 with the Hussite movement (Jan Hus) in Bohemia. Central Europe should not be forgotten in this sense, as there were established Protestant (Scheiter, viz. Scheiterhaufen) in Austria-Hungary already in the 1500s, when the Saracens defeated the Hungarians and officially allowed Reform Churches (as in Debrecen, Nagy Varad, Temesvar, etc.)–generally to promote dissent amongst the occupied populace.

Note also that the Orthodox Church or the Eastern Rite does distinguish itself from the Catholic Church, but rather the opposite. In the original Nicene Creed, the issue of the Filioque was avoided, and remained under the radar until around 900, when the Latins introduced an extension to the Creed: … we believe in the Holy Spirit “the Lord, the Giver of Life, who proceeds from the Father and the Son. With the Father and the Son He is worshipped and glorified. He has spoken through the prophets.”

The Roman Church eventually excommunicated the Patriarch of Constantinople in 1054, after the Byzantium had been substantially weakened by the Saracens. Note that the Catholic Church was formed by the Patriarchs of Alexandria, Jerusalem, Antioch, Constantinople, and Rome, and it cannot be said that the Roman was predominant at that time. In this sense, it is better to show a branching of the Roman Catholic and Greek Orthodox, while various original Patriarchs were split off at the respective time of Arab Moslem invasion. Note that the Russian Orthodox Church recognizes itself as the pure continuation of the Greek Church, since the last Greek heir was married to a Russian before the Turks took Constantinople.

Islam has no theological relationship to Christianity (aside from the allegation that Jesus was a prophet–whose words evidently can be ignored), but has a very strong theological relationship to ancient Judaism.

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By: Steve http://cominganarchy.com/2009/07/09/timeline-of-world-religions-beta/comment-page-1/#comment-390046 Sat, 11 Jul 2009 17:49:52 +0000 http://cominganarchy.com/?p=6302#comment-390046 Zionism was largely a secular movement, and although many Haredim are anti-Zionist, it’s not a feature of Judaism.

When I click on the final draft, the lower half of the chart doesn’t load even when I reproduce the chart in other applications.

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By: Alfred Russel Wallace http://cominganarchy.com/2009/07/09/timeline-of-world-religions-beta/comment-page-1/#comment-390042 Sat, 11 Jul 2009 01:59:47 +0000 http://cominganarchy.com/?p=6302#comment-390042 This has evolved to a very fascinating and thought-provoking piece. Thank you!!

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By: Chirol http://cominganarchy.com/2009/07/09/timeline-of-world-religions-beta/comment-page-1/#comment-390041 Sat, 11 Jul 2009 01:03:58 +0000 http://cominganarchy.com/?p=6302#comment-390041 @Roy Berman: People dividing themselves into groups is just part of human nature. As your examples show, religion is one of many ways people divide themselves, it’s not related to that phenomenon anymore than sex, skin color, language etc. It has nothing to do with religion in general and nothing to do with my many objections to it.

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By: kristen http://cominganarchy.com/2009/07/09/timeline-of-world-religions-beta/comment-page-1/#comment-390039 Fri, 10 Jul 2009 23:19:51 +0000 http://cominganarchy.com/?p=6302#comment-390039 How about all the wiccans/witches out there. Pagansim is growing by the day. In countries like iceland it is a national religion on a par with christianity.

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By: T. Greer http://cominganarchy.com/2009/07/09/timeline-of-world-religions-beta/comment-page-1/#comment-390033 Fri, 10 Jul 2009 16:38:08 +0000 http://cominganarchy.com/?p=6302#comment-390033 @Curzon:

Were the Cathars and the Safaviyya not “concrete” enough? The Cathars were large enough of a problem for Innocent III to declare a crusade against them in 1209.

The Safaviyya were also rather large in their day; it was members of this Shia sect that formed the Safavid dynasty, and the Ottomans deported thousands of such “Qizilbash” (red-heads) to protect the integrity of their domain during the Ottoman-Safavid wars of the 1500 & 1600s.

Wikipedia has a pretty good page on the Cathars, at least as far as their citations go: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catharism

The Wikipedia page on the Safaviyya is not near as good. What knowledge I have of the sect comes from my readings of Ottoman history. Osman’s Dream by Caroline Finkel and Subjects of the Sultan by Suraiya Faroqhi. The danger with just using Ottoman sources is that the Turks were apt to exaggerate; I highly doubt that everyone they deported or fought against were part of this “heretical” sect. I imagine most were simply Shia Turks vulnerable to radicalization by the Safavids. Still, if you are looking for a religious sect that has had an over sized influence on world affairs, the Safaviyya fit quite nicely.

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