Comments on: End Hanification! Remembering Urumqi circa 2003 http://cominganarchy.com/2009/07/07/end-hanification-remembering-urumqi-circa-2003/ Speak Victorian, Think Pagan Wed, 21 Nov 2012 23:12:46 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.7.1 By: ComingAnarchy.com » Turkey Looks East http://cominganarchy.com/2009/07/07/end-hanification-remembering-urumqi-circa-2003/comment-page-3/#comment-390365 Thu, 30 Jul 2009 05:05:02 +0000 http://cominganarchy.com/?p=6295#comment-390365 [...] Uyghur migrant workers and Han locals which would spark ethnic riots on the streets of Urumqi just days later, resulting in the death of at least 180 [...]

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By: M-Bone http://cominganarchy.com/2009/07/07/end-hanification-remembering-urumqi-circa-2003/comment-page-3/#comment-390192 Fri, 17 Jul 2009 22:22:51 +0000 http://cominganarchy.com/?p=6295#comment-390192 “I’d guess Harper is not as powerless as Aso here, am I wrong?”

I don’t think that Harper is as powerful as Koizumi was.

Aso isn’t as powerless as Kim Campell.

How powerful was Paul Martin toward the end when he was trying to hold together his party? As powerful as say, Abe was during his first 6 months or as powerless as he was during his last?

See, it changes. That’s what KvW didn’t seem to get and why he didn’t get the big picture right.

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By: spandrell http://cominganarchy.com/2009/07/07/end-hanification-remembering-urumqi-circa-2003/comment-page-3/#comment-390181 Fri, 17 Jul 2009 07:36:20 +0000 http://cominganarchy.com/?p=6295#comment-390181 頭いい人に会うと必然的に自分と意見が合うはずだというのはリベラルの特徴だね。それはまあ仕方ない。第一俺はプロで政治とか研究して飯食ってるわけじゃない。自分の経験に基づいてどう感じているか言ってるだけだ。中国の官製メディアはアホくさいから読まない、大体民間のブログを読むようにしている。中国人だって官製メディアを信じている人は誰もいない。
いろんな言葉できるからこそ、いろんな人としゃべってきたからこそ現実的に考えるんだよね。抽象理念を持っていろいろ考えていた時代も会ったけど、そのうち飽きた。韓国と中国が日本が嫌いだというのは事実だし、政府のせいといえば政府のせいになるし、メディアのせいといえばメディアのせいになる。投資しているから好きになってくださいよといっても無駄。日本だって人工的に韓流を作ってあげて儲かるようにしてるのに、それでも嫌われてる。
俺は別に日本が嫌いじゃないしど、なんか近年は衰退している感じがして、逆に悲しいから何とかして欲しい。俺は第一中国に呑み込まれて欲しくない。

About KvW, I kinda feel this sense of despise of an academic towards the non-orthodox. M-bone you really have a feel for authority arguments, huh? The guy was just confused about Japan (and thousands of expats have felt the same), and he got an answer to his doubts. He was a bit over the top? Sure. He was a bit too negative? Sure. But he got the big picture right.
I’m not American, I know what a parliamentary system is, for god’s sake. I’d guess Harper is not as powerless as Aso here, am I wrong?

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By: Aceface http://cominganarchy.com/2009/07/07/end-hanification-remembering-urumqi-circa-2003/comment-page-3/#comment-390168 Thu, 16 Jul 2009 02:37:25 +0000 http://cominganarchy.com/?p=6295#comment-390168 See,that’s the thing.I also don’t have problem with higher education hiring highscool education grads.UC Berkley hired Eric Hoffer back then and he didn’t even finish highschool,you know.

There’s a small boom on Hoffer revival in Japan around 2003.And guess what.It’s been translated by one of student of Chalmers Johnson,now a proffesor of Shizuoka Univ.He even added the article by Sheila Johnson,wife of Chalmers,on the memory of Eric Hoffer.Hoffer and Johnson’s had intersection during Berkley years.

My take on the taidan with Fulford and KvW,At least KvW didn’t agree with Fulford on stupid claim nor Fulford brought up 911 conspiracy theory there.
I’d assume things become undebatable from KvW invented the term” Administrotors” too wide in range and overgeneralized to discuss the role and fanction in the politics.I’d imagine that’s what happens to people who turns into a
thinker from journalist.Journalists is good at fact and reality check,but few possess broad theoretical or comparative knowledge to analyze events and those who specialized in the foreign reports are usually not used to have their ideas checked by critical eyes because the readership simply don’t have enough knowledge to criticize.I’d imagine the readership of NRC Handelsbrad totally believe every word KvW wrote on Japan and I’ve confirmed this when I was in Amsterdam back in ’92.

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By: M-Bone http://cominganarchy.com/2009/07/07/end-hanification-remembering-urumqi-circa-2003/comment-page-3/#comment-390167 Thu, 16 Jul 2009 01:47:51 +0000 http://cominganarchy.com/?p=6295#comment-390167 Ace, while I won’t throw KvW in with Fulford in nutzo land, I think the fact that most of his publications lately are 対談 alongside a combination of marketable faces and questionable characters (even before Fulford was found to be clinically insane, he still had way more cred as a 芸能知識人 than real influence) with little new to offer shows how marginalized KvW has become.

I’m not in favor of the common “it is just a 対談, it is the editor’s fault” sort of copout – people still have to take responsibility for hammering out their theories in Sapio or Bungei rather than in a sphere more conductive to arguments supported by evidence. If KvW wants to get paid, that’s fine, but in doing so, he should expect that people won’t treat him like a serious scholar. I really don’t have any problem with him only having a high school diploma and being a university prof – it should, after all, be about the knowledge and detailed arguments, not about the qualifications. The problem is that the detailed arguments aren’t there either…. Could KvW have expanded on his themes in a more detailed way? Well, we’ll never know because he’s gone over totally to paid by the word cash and carry “foreign view” stuff in the Japanese media – it is a form of entertainment, plain and simple.

“the right wingers,and he is very worried about something bad may happen to Ozawa.”

It seems that KvW and Fulford have one thing in common – a love of ninjas.

That’s the problem with prediction – people seldom call one on being wrong well over half the time and when one claims to have predicted the future, well, that just happens to be the time that they told their buddies over drinks instead of publishing it.

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By: Aceface http://cominganarchy.com/2009/07/07/end-hanification-remembering-urumqi-circa-2003/comment-page-3/#comment-390164 Thu, 16 Jul 2009 01:27:10 +0000 http://cominganarchy.com/?p=6295#comment-390164 つかれたというより、退屈だな。
とりあえず、こちらは一応反論する際には事実関係を確認している。そのために反証を準備してから反論するが、どれだけ、事実関係の間違いを指摘されても君は思いつきをしゃべるだけ。
複数の言語ができるみたいだから、多少は変わった意見があるかと思ったら、「アジアは日本が嫌いだ」とか「欧米人は日本人がエコノミックアニマルがから嫌いだ」といった紋切り型か、ウォルフレンと中国の官製メディアの受け売りしかしないだろ。あんまり議論してもこちらは君から得るものはないよね。2ちゃんねるか憤青と知的水準は変わらない。もっとも連中は留学なんてしなくても、にたりよったりの議論はできるから、君の知性のコストパフォーマンスは連中以下だな。

それに君は意見を変える必要はない。むしろもっとそのユニークな日本や中国に関する自分の意見をネットのあちこちでオープンに出してくれ。少なくともウイグル人に関しては、まちがいなく同意する人よりも反発する人の方が多いから、オレやM-BONEが、あちこちのブログで誤解や偏見に反論したりするよりはるかに効果的だ。この手の議論をする奴がどんな奴かを広く知らしめるにはな。

M-Bone.

On Ozawa,I still remember KvW at one of the lecture organized by SAPIO magazine back in 1994.(He had column there at the time)He was saying many key political figures who challenge “the system” get assasinated in the shadowy agent of the system,the right wingers,and he is very worried about something bad may happen to Ozawa.He’s sort of mixture between Oliver Stone and Noam Chomsky when it comes to analyzing “the system” and “the administraters”.

However,I have to defend KvW on one thing.That was recoreded conversation being edited by editor afterwards.He seemed to be so confused with Fulford on that one and you could even tell from the book.(KvW also made similar book with Morinaga Takuro.「年収300万円時代 日本人のための幸福論 which was also a disastrous book.)And Fulford wasn’t a wacko from outerspace at the time.Fulford was writing in the manner of conventional revisionist Japanologist like “Japanese economy follows the foot steps of Argentine” or “Yakuza is behind the decades of recession” or “Why are J-journos are bunch of cowards”,blah,blah,blah.

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By: M-Bone http://cominganarchy.com/2009/07/07/end-hanification-remembering-urumqi-circa-2003/comment-page-3/#comment-390160 Wed, 15 Jul 2009 22:03:51 +0000 http://cominganarchy.com/?p=6295#comment-390160 “in Japan doesn’t half nothing close to the authority of a prime minister in a western country”

Once again with the “western countries”. PMs in parliamentary systems are not typically supposed to have the types of super powers that you are assuming. You are giving KvW way too much credit.

Here is an example of his usual way of arguing from one of his recent articles -

“When Japanese friends told me in January that Ozawa would probably be the next Japanese prime minister I asked them: but what of the coming scandal? Some things are very predictable in Japan.”

See, KvW didn’t predict the “coming scandal” in a publication or in public, he “told his friends” and later breaks it out in a publication to show how his understanding of Japan allows him to “predict” what will happen. Pure bunk. Of course, he never cared much for empiricism because grand generalizations and border line conspiracy theory are easier.

Speaking of conspiracy theory, are you familiar with Benjamin Fulford? He is another one of those 芸能知識人 he has some “rational” irrational conspiracy theories like the “yakuza recession”, but he also runs the full range of crazy – 9/11, Jews, Masons. He thinks that Japan has a political center – ninjas or something.

Guess who KvW has been writing with lately?
幸せを奪われた「働き蟻国家」日本―JAPANシステムの偽装と崩壊 (単行本)
カレル・ヴァン ウォルフレン (著), ベンジャミン フルフォード (著)

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By: spandrell http://cominganarchy.com/2009/07/07/end-hanification-remembering-urumqi-circa-2003/comment-page-3/#comment-390153 Wed, 15 Jul 2009 15:12:57 +0000 http://cominganarchy.com/?p=6295#comment-390153 疲れたんか。
じゃいいわ

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By: Aceface http://cominganarchy.com/2009/07/07/end-hanification-remembering-urumqi-circa-2003/comment-page-3/#comment-390152 Wed, 15 Jul 2009 14:55:23 +0000 http://cominganarchy.com/?p=6295#comment-390152 おいおいこれだけ議論して結末がこれかよ。羊頭狗肉とはこのことだぜ。

くだらん。

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By: spandrell http://cominganarchy.com/2009/07/07/end-hanification-remembering-urumqi-circa-2003/comment-page-3/#comment-390150 Wed, 15 Jul 2009 13:44:12 +0000 http://cominganarchy.com/?p=6295#comment-390150 “and golden age of Japanese pop culture was 70′s and 80′s. ”
I meant for Marxy’s tastes. That’s the stuff he likes and talks about. I’ve no opinion about golden ages nor whatever. Nor I give a shit.
“Couldn’t it just be that you don’t know very much about this stuff or are blowing stuff to extremes because you want your Japan understanding to fit into a nice little box?”
Could it be that I find it boring to try to nuance every sentence? I’m not writing an academic paper here. Change “no” with “weak” or whatever. I’m not in research, will never be, so relax man. Just discussing here.

“平和的なデモに一方的に警察が発砲して、抵抗すれば漢族がリンチを始めてるじゃないか”
基本的な事実についても合意してない時点では論争は無駄だな。平民を数十人殺した暴動の話を平和的なデモというのはデマの極みだ。
”あいつらはうるさいだけじゃなくて、数も多い”
そうでもないって。そもそも日本嫌いなのは憤青だけじゃないから、日本に厳しく言うのは政府にとって損することはない。韓国だって国民が日本嫌いだし、戦争の話だけじゃない。

”自国だけでなく世界の福祉のためにも還元しているといってるんだ。だから、「せこい」と言われるのは心外だし、まちがっているね。 ”
せこいという言葉で気を悪くしたなら謝るけど、そう感情的になる必要はない。政治的じゃなくて経済的に言ってるんだよ。これも個人的な話もあって、外国企業が中国で儲かっていて、日本ではあまり儲かっていない。まあバブル崩壊後は日本も外資に対する態度はだいぶよくなったけど、日本はアメリカやヨーロッパで儲かってる分は、経済的には若干せこい。今中国はパクリだと日本人がわめくが、60-70年代はヨーロッパの工業フェアーで日本人がカメラを持って写真取り巻くって後で商品をパクりまくる話は有名だよ。それで日本で関税はかけないがいろんなせこい手段で外資企業は歓迎しないように。特に中小企業はまったく相手にされない。
そういうことを言ってるんだよ。別に国連に金だしたり、カンボジアで学校作っても、貿易赤字になった先進国の知ったこっちゃない。

”中国は人口の大きな農業社会。だから異なる利害を調整する場として立法府である議会が必要だ”
仮にちゃんとした選挙はできたとしても、農民が選ぶ議会で中国はどうなるかは誰だって知っている。でたらめいうな。

”Ooops.I thought you agreed with KvW’s analysis that Japan DON’T have center of power.But it did”
Does it have ultimate authority? KvW did talk about Tanaka Kakuei being very powerful, or Nakasone trying to strengthen the premiership. Of course Koizumi was powerful, but what happened after he left? The fact is that a prime minister in Japan doesn’t half nothing close to the authority of a prime minister in a western country, that the system doesn’t work like that. And that’s true, and hasn’t changed. Of course the balance of power changes with time, but doesn’t it always go back to normal with some time?
Say what you want, but the fact the prime minister doesn’t decide policy, that the LDP is not a unified political party, that bureaucrats decide policy while fighting each other, etc. etc. Things that during the war, nobody in Japan had the power of Hitler or Churchill is not widely known. It should be on textbooks. It should be given for free on arrival to Narita.

“.I’d imagine China would soon follow the passage to happoshu. ”
God forbid!!! You can find Qingdao big bottles for 1 yuan in Beijing.

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By: Aceface http://cominganarchy.com/2009/07/07/end-hanification-remembering-urumqi-circa-2003/comment-page-3/#comment-390149 Wed, 15 Jul 2009 12:55:23 +0000 http://cominganarchy.com/?p=6295#comment-390149 Amen to that
http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2009/07/14/chinas_one_hundred_years_of_ineptitude

“It is the equal of “Bowling Alone” or something – long since dismissed, no longer discussed.”

What? the book just came out in Japan only s few years ago.

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By: M-Bone http://cominganarchy.com/2009/07/07/end-hanification-remembering-urumqi-circa-2003/comment-page-3/#comment-390148 Wed, 15 Jul 2009 12:14:16 +0000 http://cominganarchy.com/?p=6295#comment-390148 “And the gold age of japanese pop culture was the 90s anyway. ”

!!!?!?!?!?!
50s, 60s, 70s, 80s > 90s > 2000s

“KvW made sense of japanese politics”

Didn’t he just argue that Japanese politics make no sense?

“Marxy makes sense of pop culture here”

Marxy writes interesting stuff about fashion and pop music. He doesn’t write much about manga, anime, video games, movies, popular literature or non-fiction. That’s not a knock – he does what he does.

Anyway a bit of advice – if you bring up KvW in any academic discussion, conference, etc. you will get laughed out of the place. The guy was a 芸能知識人 who wrote some very superficial stuff that is mistaken for deep, mainly because he didn’t say much at all. It is the equal of “Bowling Alone” or something – long since dismissed, no longer discussed.

“The Republican Party doesn’t have a center” – look, I can do it too.

Anyway, look at any political science or sociology literature from the past 15 years – KvW doesn’t get cited much. When he does, it is almost like a punch line.

Japan has had some great, great films in the last 5 years or so. I could list some, or you could just check out the best lists on Midnight Eye, which are a pretty good summary.

You seem to have a “no” habit. Japan has “no civil society”, “no good movies lately”, “no political center”, “Japanese media takes no stance”. Couldn’t it just be that you don’t know very much about this stuff or are blowing stuff to extremes because you want your Japan understanding to fit into a nice little box?

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By: Aceface http://cominganarchy.com/2009/07/07/end-hanification-remembering-urumqi-circa-2003/comment-page-3/#comment-390146 Wed, 15 Jul 2009 11:24:08 +0000 http://cominganarchy.com/?p=6295#comment-390146 “別にウイグル人に「ありがたく思え」と言ってない。でも漢族平民の観点からして、あいつらに大して優遇政策あんのにあいつら勝手に暴動を起こして人殺してるじゃないか。それはそっちの大好きな「憤青」がブチ切れるのも一理ある。”

でもウイグル人平民の観点からして、勝手に人の土地にきて、民族自決権どころか民族自治区の約束も反故にして、さらに天然資源まで奪い、ウイグル語の教育機関は閉鎖したあげく、平和的なデモに一方的に警察が発砲して、抵抗すれば漢族がリンチを始めてるじゃないか。それはそっちの大好きな「イスラム主義者のテロリスト」がブチぎれて、中東かアフリカの中国人労働者をターゲットにするというのも一理ある。(おっとないか。ラビア・かーディルは公式にテロ予告を非難してるし)

”学者はウイグル人の経済問題などについては真剣に研究していて、なんとかしてあげるしかないという認識が一般的。そうならないだろうけどさ。”

じゃあ意味がないね。それに中国政府はウイグル人の経済問題などについて真剣に研究している学者は逮捕してるみたいだしな。http://www.yomiuri.co.jp/world/news/20090710-OYT1T00972.htm

”別に「憤青」がうるさいだけで数はさほど多くないし。 ”

あいつらはうるさいだけじゃなくて、数も多い。とてもな。しかも対日政策では影響力も持っている。胡錦濤が来日したとき、毎日ネットで世論を調べてるとしって、日本側は愕然としたよ。

”台湾でだってめちゃくちゃじゃないかよ、射殺事件なり何なりして。韓国も毎回政権変わると検察は野党をいじめるんだろう?”

だが、台湾は元総統を逮捕できる。陳が着服したとされる金額は中国の規準なら雀の涙だ。
韓国の民主主義には問題がある。だがそれは日本と比較して問題がある、とおれが言っているだけで、中国よりは100倍マシだ。君だって、韓国の方が日本よりも自由とおもってたんでしょ?

”安物大量生産の戦略は政府が近年遠ざけようとしている。かなりきつい労働法を制定したし、外資の投資の条件が付加価値の高い製品にするよう規制か変わっている。 ”

だが、それで失業が増える。しかもその受け皿を考えていない。広東省は他省からの出稼ぎ農民を故郷に送り返すことしか考えていない。

君がいっていたのは、「次の経済危機で日本がどうなる」ということだ。民主党政権は労働市場の柔軟性を「派遣切り」としか見ないから、さらに構造改革にむけた変化は遅れる可能性もある。しかし、その変わり、経済危機に対する耐性は強まるだろう。もちろんゾンビ企業は淘汰して、企業がリストラを進めやすい方向に向かうかもしれない。そうすれば日本経済は一時的な痛みを感じるが長期的には競争力を強めるだろう。どっちにしても日本は世界最大の債権国だ。経済収支も黒字。どっちに転んでも乗り切る力はある。

中国はどうかな。労働紛争が激化すれば、社会不安も増すだろうし、いっそう治安機関や軍に依存した政権運営になる。若者への仕事は減り、高齢化も進んでいく。しかも日本のように福祉制度も整わず、一人あたりの経済力も低いままね。オレは次にアメリカで経済危機が表面化すれば中国でなんらかの政治危機が起きると思うね。

”それは前から知ってるけどアホじゃないの?外交って金出せばいいってもんじゃないよ。まあ小泉の時代からこれの見直しの声が増えていいけど。 ”

君がいっていたのは要約すると「日本がアメリカ頼みの輸出主導経済を構築して、自分だけ黒字を貯めてるのが特にせこい」ってことだろ。オレは日本はその黒字を、自国だけでなく世界の福祉のためにも還元しているといってるんだ。だから、「せこい」と言われるのは心外だし、まちがっているね。
それに、君が絶賛する中国は日本のパクリで輸出主導経済を構築しただけでなくて、日本のように西側の一員としての行動や価値観の基準にもしたがわず(君はこれを信じていないらしいが)また、国際機関に還元する形で国際貢献をしてもいない。そのくせ、様々な国際会議では開発途上国の代弁者きどりで先進国を非難するんだから。「せこい」のはどっちだい?

”シンガポールとかでメディアの自由とか有権者とかあまり働かないけどつまんないぐらい清潔な政治なんだよね。法治を確立させたのは民主じゃなくて実質独裁政府の努力。香港だって選挙さえないのに汚職が少ない。”

シンガポールと香港の二つは一つの都市だけでできた社会だ。政府が管轄する行政範囲も人口も少ない。それに都市と農村といった利益の対立する地域を抱えていないから、官僚機構が清潔で有能であれば、民主主義の議会がなくてもある程度、社会の利害を調整できる。香港ではメディアも日本ほどではないが自由だし、シンガポールも国境を超えたマレーシアで自国では禁じられた情報を得ることが出来るし、海外衛星放送の受信傍受は自由だ。さらにつけくわえれば、一応どちらも議員を選ぶ選挙はある。こうした都市国家ならば法の支配の確立は限定的だが可能だ。

しかし、中国は人口の大きな農業社会。だから異なる利害を調整する場として立法府である議会が必要だ。さらに官僚機構は腐敗しているから、これを監視するメディアも必要だ。でも言論の自由はなく、議会である全国人民代表会議の代議員は選挙で選ばれない。このままでは法治は無理だ。

”インドだって民主的なのに汚職がすごいだろ?民主化して記者を自由にしたら国が自動的に繁栄するもんじゃない。悲しい話だが。 ”

だけどインドは今急成長しているぜ。民主化して、記者を自由にし、イスラム教徒がテロまでおこなってるけどね。中国よりもだいぶいい。

”Hey do you have to oppose anything I say? ”

Unless you keep saying anything that I can’t agree,sure.
and golden age of Japanese pop culture was 70′s and 80′s.

“There’s something seriously wrong with a country who can’t afford to drink beer anymore. Asahi sells for 4 yuan in China, by the way. ”

Well,the happoshu boom came from the fact that Japanese forgot what the real beer tastes like thanks to Asahi for circulating Super Dry,the proto-happoshu in taste.I’d imagine China would soon follow the passage to happoshu.

“Hey, who knew? Who knew that the japanese would stomp their own feet with the bubble, and then a software revolution would happen in the US which would make the massive industrial japanese machine redundant. Can’t blame the guy. ”

But what if the guy’s core thesis WAS the unstoppable Japan Inc and it’s foundation of power? Should Dick Chenney be left out from his misguided campaign on Iraq?

“The Finance Ministry controls the money, but does it have authority over all the government? It certainly wasn’t easy for Koizumi to make their bidding back then. ”

Ooops.I thought you agreed with KvW’s analysis that Japan DON’T have center of power.But it did.Koizumi did knock down MoFA with help of Takenaka Heizo.
Koizumi has proved that prime minister can be prime in government,if only s(he)shows leadership and has certain political clout.Something KvW chose not to admit until this day.

“That he did that without speaking the language means the guy has a fucking gift. ”

That I agree.I’m also amazed by the fact that he became English lecture at Waseda University in the mid 60′s with only limited education of graduating Dutch highschool.He teaches in University of Amsterdam now,and the guy only been to university to teach but never to study there sounds amazing.But then again,this can’t be possible if his main field wasn’t Japan studies,an academic field protected from the reality check of people who know the subject most,which is Japanese.

“悪いけど中国人の善悪を少数民族に対する態度だけで考えるなら話が進まないわ。とてもじゃないけど優先順位が低い。期待しているのは中国の発展であってウイグル人の自由じゃない。”

そしてここは中国の発展ではなくて、ウイグル人の自由を論じているスレだ(った)。
別に君と話を進めるのが目的じゃない。

それに、中国政府や中国人が話す言葉よりも、ウイグル人を含めた少数民族への接し方を見ていくほうが、はるかに中国の今の現状と今後進んでいく方向がわかるよ。

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By: spandrell http://cominganarchy.com/2009/07/07/end-hanification-remembering-urumqi-circa-2003/comment-page-3/#comment-390143 Wed, 15 Jul 2009 08:15:39 +0000 http://cominganarchy.com/?p=6295#comment-390143 ”「15%雇用してやったのに恩知らずめ」だろ?なんで中国人に話が変わるとそんなバランス感覚ない反応になるの? ”
別にウイグル人に「ありがたく思え」と言ってない。でも漢族平民の観点からして、あいつらに大して優遇政策あんのにあいつら勝手に暴動を起こして人殺してるじゃないか。それはそっちの大好きな「憤青」がブチ切れるのも一理ある。
学者はウイグル人の経済問題などについては真剣に研究していて、なんとかしてあげるしかないという認識が一般的。そうならないだろうけどさ。別に「憤青」がうるさいだけで数はさほど多くないし。
”え、経済発展、中国してないの?そんなわけないだろ?問題なのは、経済発展がおきているのに、政治改革もほとんど進まず”
まだ平均所得2千ドル程度だぞ?アメリカの学者たちが8千ドル程度から民主化可能って言ってたよね?どうやって結論だしたかわからんけど一理あると思う。
あんな環境で選挙できるわけがない。台湾でだってめちゃくちゃじゃないかよ、射殺事件なり何なりして。韓国も毎回政権変わると検察は野党をいじめるんだろう?

”増えてないよ”
90年代はアメリカの経済はどんだけ拡大したよ。
”すでにもう困ってるから変わらない。ある意味それこそ、キミの文句言っていた構造改革が進むんじゃないの?キミが存在しないと言い張っている民主党による政権交代と政治改革によって。 ”
だといいな。どうなるんだろう。
それこそ、付加価値の低い製品を作り、世界でもっとも貿易依存率が高いこの国のほうが問題は大きいね。”
安物大量生産の戦略は政府が近年遠ざけようとしている。かなりきつい労働法を制定したし、外資の投資の条件が付加価値の高い製品にするよう規制か変わっている。
いくら何でも中国政府の連中は馬鹿ではない。経済だめになったら飛ぶの自分の首だっていうことを十分理解している。

”ちなみに中国は日本と同じぐらい経済規模だが、国連の分担金は8分の1だ。”
それは前から知ってるけどアホじゃないの?外交って金出せばいいってもんじゃないよ。まあ小泉の時代からこれの見直しの声が増えていいけど。

”汚職を無くすには、法の支配と自由なメディアと有権者による監視が必要だ。”
そうか?シンガポールとかでメディアの自由とか有権者とかあまり働かないけどつまんないぐらい清潔な政治なんだよね。法治を確立させたのは民主じゃなくて実質独裁政府の努力。香港だって選挙さえないのに汚職が少ない。
インドだって民主的なのに汚職がすごいだろ?民主化して記者を自由にしたら国が自動的に繁栄するもんじゃない。悲しい話だが。

”But not about pop culture of which Van Wolfren detests and Marxy making career on it. ”
Hey do you have to oppose anything I say? KvW is an old white man, different generation. And the gold age of japanese pop culture was the 90s anyway.

KvW made sense of japanese politics, Marxy makes sense of pop culture here. We expats don’t read CanCam, he makes sense of all the buzz surrounding it. Of course the only way of interpreting things is to have a critical mindset; if you like something you don’t try to dissect and understand it.
The best I read of him was when he criticized the whole happoshu boom. There’s something seriously wrong with a country who can’t afford to drink beer anymore.
Asahi sells for 4 yuan in China, by the way.

“Biggest misjudgement of KvW is Japanese system is invincible when it comes to economic management”

Hey, who knew? Who knew that the japanese would stomp their own feet with the bubble, and then a software revolution would happen in the US which would make the massive industrial japanese machine redundant. Can’t blame the guy.
The Finance Ministry controls the money, but does it have authority over all the government? It certainly wasn’t easy for Koizumi to make their bidding back then. Say what you want, the guy made a coherent picture of the japanese government system which is basically accurate. That he did that without speaking the language means the guy has a fucking gift.
”KvW just dismisses everything without, apparently, having read or understood much at all””
Nobody read his book as a critique of japanese culture. Some people just have no sense of taste. Can’t ask for everything. Talking about movies, any recent movies here that are not too lame?

”結論からいうと南方都市報はどれだけ頑張っても、今回の事件は起きたし、政府の行動にも一般市民のウイグル人への理解に変化はなかったってことだ。だからといって今後に期待しないわけではないが、「ニューヨークタイムズ並み」は大げさだろ。 ”
たまに人権の話がうるさいから、俺より進歩的といっても過言ではないかもね。
今回の事件=ウイグル人が暴動を起こして平民を殺した
悪いけど中国人の善悪を少数民族に対する態度だけで考えるなら話が進まないわ。とてもじゃないけど優先順位が低い。期待しているのは中国の発展であってウイグル人の自由じゃない。
まずできることから進んでいこう。

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By: M-Bone http://cominganarchy.com/2009/07/07/end-hanification-remembering-urumqi-circa-2003/comment-page-3/#comment-390132 Tue, 14 Jul 2009 22:49:21 +0000 http://cominganarchy.com/?p=6295#comment-390132 “There’s a certain intelectual force centered”

This is one problem that I see in Asia coverage – China moves 0.2% toward libearlism, it is big news and people start going ape. Japan moves 0.2% toward miltiarism (whatever that looks like…) and we have the same thing. Put them both together and you seriously have some outfits reporting on “liberal” China and “illiberal Japan” all the time – often side by side.

I have seen plenty of evidence that China is deveoping what you could call a concerned civil society that can and does pressure government. I don’t think that it would be an exaggeration to say that it is decades behind where Japan was in 1960, however. I’m not concerned with people eating babies, I’m concerned with thuggy strike breakers and people being afraid to go to the police and with cultural genocide and the other kind.

外需依存は中国の方が日本よりも遥かに高いよ

I was thinking the same thing. And let’s face it, China sells a LOT of stuff to Japan too. How is China going to keep growing if the US and Japan tank? There goes that investment $$$ that Spandrell mentioned as well. You know, we have been hearing since 2000 that next year or the year after all that Chinese R&D, all those engineers being trained, are going to produce the next big consumer innovation, the next big global brand. Still waiting.

“You did.Scroll up and read one of your early comments. ”

That’s right, he DID! So my mini case study was useful.

“But Japanese media as a custom doesn’t try very hard to take a stance”

But they do take very developed positions on, say, Article 9. The Yomiuri even publishes a huge constitution draft. There are also 1,000,000plus circulation papers with very defined ideological stances – Akahata and Sankei.

“オッケーKvWは日本語できないから発言権ないなら、そっちは中国語できないから発言権ないよな”

Talking about two very, very different things here. KvW talks about the Japanese media and publishing, political speech and discourse – things for which Japanese knowledge is necessary. We’re not really saying anything about what Chinese politicians say about nationhood or anything, aside from the way that the recent riots were reported and all of that was translated – just that killing lots of people and Hanification don’t seem to be good. I don’t even know what language is spoken in Sudan, but random killings = bad is not not exactly going out on a limb. There is another big difference – I, for example, love a bunch of Chinese films (especially from the 1990s). KvW just dismisses everything without, apparently, having read or understood much at all. A lack of language skill only becomes a major problem if you are making a grand holistic analysis.

日本の森の中で枯れ木を一本みつけると、「見ろ、この森はもう死んでる」中国の砂漠に生えた樹を一本みつけるとこんどは、「見ろ、これからここはジャングルになるぞ」

This line is pure gold.

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By: Aceface http://cominganarchy.com/2009/07/07/end-hanification-remembering-urumqi-circa-2003/comment-page-3/#comment-390128 Tue, 14 Jul 2009 19:08:57 +0000 http://cominganarchy.com/?p=6295#comment-390128 “とりあえずチベット人は何人殺されたかちゃんとした統計ある?”

ちゃんとした統計を出す義務があるのは現在支配している中国にある。

“中国が隠してるからないっていわれるかもしれんけど、ないならこんな判断できないじゃん?”

数は二次的な問題だね。

”世界中巡回して嘘をつくのはなんと言っても正しいことではない。”

正確ではないが、嘘でもない。

”でチベット人がラマ教から開放されたくなかったのは当然そう。だがダライラマはチベット人の解放を唱える立場にはないね。 ”

意味不明。チベット人がチベット仏教から解放されたくないなら、それでいいのでは?
それにダライラマもチベット人だから、チベットの解放を唱えるのは中国人よりはあるよ。どっちにしてもかつてはさておき今は民主主義を主張してるから。

”日本人も儲かってるじゃないか。「あなたの利益を増やすために投資したことを感謝してます」って言われたい?どういうことだよ。 ”

日本人”も”儲かってる。そして中国人はもっと儲かってる。そうじゃなきゃこんな関係成立しない。「お互いうまくいってますね。」という認識もってもらうぐらいしか日本人は望んでいない。だけど認知すらしないじゃん。あれはもちろん慈善じゃないよ。慈善事業で助けて豊かになった相手から脅されるなんてこと聞いたことないでしょ?
そもそもキミはチベットやウイグル人は国を盗まれ、殺され、漢人がやりたい放題やってるなかで、ちょっと抵抗したら、「15%雇用してやったのに恩知らずめ」だろ?なんで中国人に話が変わるとそんなバランス感覚ない反応になるの?

”15年以上ってバブル崩壊したのは外需減ったからじゃないだろう。ずっと増え続けていたじゃないか。今年外需が暴落したときに日本の成長はどうなってる?見てみたいよ。 ”

増えてないよ。バブルが崩壊したのは、地価と株価が実際の価値より上がりすぎて、大口投資家が売り始めると一気に下がった。銀行も土地に投資をしていたから不良債権が急増して消費者心理が冷え込んだの。別に貿易とは関係ない。
もちろん困るが、すでにもう困ってるから変わらない。ある意味それこそ、キミの文句言っていた構造改革が進むんじゃないの?キミが存在しないと言い張っている民主党による政権交代と政治改革によって。
それこそ、付加価値の低い製品を作り、世界でもっとも貿易依存率が高いこの国のほうが問題は大きいね。不満も選挙や政権交代でガス抜きできないし、社会保障も満足にないからね。
http://j.people.com.cn/2005/09/10/jp20050910_53424.html

”中国は外需でやってるけどとりあえず日本の数倍外国投資を受けている。外国企業は中国でアホみたいに儲かっている。日本とは相当違う。そこで日本が特にせこいという指摘。”

外国企業は中国で設けている企業は一握り。だから、対中貿易で日本もアメリカもEUも貿易赤字をだしているんだ。 そもそも日本がせこいなら、中国もおなじだろ?
日本の数倍外国投資を受けているのは当たり前。労働組合もなく、法律も機能せず、環境基準もゆるいから、よその国では作れないような工場をありえない人件費で動かせる。そりゃ投資するよ。

日本はもうけた金は世界に還元する。ちなみに中国は日本と同じぐらい経済規模だが、国連の分担金は8分の1だ。安保理の常任理事国でやってることは拒否権ちらつかせるだけなのにね。せこいのはどっちかね。
http://www.mofa.go.jp/mofaj/gaiko/jp_un/yosan.html

”歴史上経済発展しないまま政治体制や民衆の考え方がリベラルになった例はない。実際のところ発展してから丸くなるのを期待するしかないんだ。 ”

え、経済発展、中国してないの?そんなわけないだろ?問題なのは、経済発展がおきているのに、政治改革もほとんど進まず、国民の意識も全然リベラルになってない。むしろある意味意識のほうは20年前より悪くなっている。

”民族自決の民族や人権で考えるのは気持ちいいかもしれないけど、実際に状況改善につながっていない。”

だって、そもそも中国政府も中国人もキミも考えてもいないじゃん。状況を改善させる意思もみあたらない。ただ文句言う奴は黙らせろ。それでも黙らないなら殺せってだけだぜ、今の状況は。
”暴動を起こして平民を殺すことを正当化・扇動するのも問題解決にならない。 ”

それを正当化したり、扇動してるのは君でウイグル人じゃないね。

”いやケタが違う。本当に。特に汚職がひどすぎる。黒社会問題はまあある程度抑えればいいだけの話だが、 ”

汚職を無くすには、法の支配と自由なメディアと有権者による監視が必要だ。つまり3権分立が必要なわけ。インドネシアも汚職は中国と同じぐらい酷かったけど、民主化したし、多少はましになった。それに黒社会の方こそお得意のリンチにかければいいじゃない。

”オッケーKvWは日本語できないから発言権ないなら、そっちは中国語できないから発言権ないよな?”

発言権がないとはいっていない。かなり誇張や誤解が多く、日常的に日本人や日本語の文献に接していれば、ありえない記述が多い。警視庁によるクーデターとかさ。
それにオレは中国に40年住んでいるわけでもないし、中国の本を15冊も書いているわけじゃない。

”南方都市報はまあ主流ではないが一定の影響力はある。去年のチベット暴動で政府の鎮圧を敢えて批判したし。なかなかですよ。もちろん政府から反発きたけど、記者が捕まってないし今でも普通に働いている。社説は人権人権人権ばっか言ってるよ。「普遍的価値観」とかさ。期待してあげようぜ。 ”

キミよりも進歩的ということだね。広東省は胡・温のコントロールが完全に効いていない。だから南方日報グループのようなメディアは中央にとって利用価値がある。汚職暴露の報道は広東省の既得権益層を切り崩すのにも使えるし、下手に手を出せば、反胡・温勢力に利用されるような論調に変わるかもしれない。今は泳がせておくだろう。だが中央が完全に広東省を掌握したら、それまでだね。それに中国の新聞なら環球時報や強国論壇にも一定の影響力はある。付け加えると人民日報にもね。

キミは樹を見て森を見ないタイプだよ。日本の森の中で枯れ木を一本みつけると、「見ろ、この森はもう死んでる」中国の砂漠に生えた樹を一本みつけるとこんどは、「見ろ、これからここはジャングルになるぞ」
結論からいうと南方都市報はどれだけ頑張っても、今回の事件は起きたし、政府の行動にも一般市民のウイグル人への理解に変化はなかったってことだ。だからといって今後に期待しないわけではないが、「ニューヨークタイムズ並み」は大げさだろ。

”But the fact that institutional reform in Japan is almost impossible because there is not a clear center of power, he said it, and its true, and is still true.”

Not exactly,Since he has been saying from time to time in the 90′s that Ministry of Finance has the power.Which has a point,but now it’s not.Secondly.lots of people were against KvW’s analysis on Japanese structural power.But KvW wrote that all in one book.Others wrote in mor detailed with boring stats.He won,they lost in English speaking world.But not that it means the truth had prevailed.
Biggest misjudgement of KvW is Japanese system is invincible when it comes to economic management,something both the reality has shown that it’s not so accurate and I’m sure you agree with that.You are simply catching his talking point and don’t have knowledge nor insight to judge the validity of the thesis.
You believe them because that’s what you want to believe.And from there,criticism gets shut out.

“They certainly feel the same way about Dentsu, for example. ”

But not about pop culture of which Van Wolfren detests and Marxy making career on it.

“馬鹿にしすぎだな。住んでみないとわかんねえだろ。俺が無知だっていうなら知識を蓄えてきますよ。”

ロバが旅に出たところで馬になって帰ってくるわけではないと思うけど。でもまあ、若いうちは旅をしたほうがいいかもな。こんなところで日本人相手にヒマつぶすよりも。

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By: spandrell http://cominganarchy.com/2009/07/07/end-hanification-remembering-urumqi-circa-2003/comment-page-3/#comment-390126 Tue, 14 Jul 2009 17:09:24 +0000 http://cominganarchy.com/?p=6295#comment-390126 “What I want you to find out instead is why are Chinese always start saying on internet debate that “I’m not Chinese myself”when they are disguising”
俺のこと?中国人じゃないよ本当に。中国人学生だって大半論争にならん、「祖国の不可侵領土だから」で終わる。

“人口比率から考えればチベット人の犠牲者の数がチベット社会に持つ重みは、中国人にとっての「億単位」に十分値するよ”
とりあえずチベット人は何人殺されたかちゃんとした統計ある?中国が隠してるからないっていわれるかもしれんけど、ないならこんな判断できないじゃん?世界中巡回して嘘をつくのはなんと言っても正しいことではない。でチベット人がラマ教から開放されたくなかったのは当然そう。だがダライラマはチベット人の解放を唱える立場にはないね。

“But it’s the net-cafe kids and their parents gain more from economic relation from Japan,either that is investment,trade,yen loan or oversea development aid. ”
日本人は慈善的にやってるわけじゃないだろ?。日本人も儲かってるじゃないか。「あなたの利益を増やすために投資したことを感謝してます」って言われたい?どういうことだよ。

“外需依存は中国の方が日本よりも遥かに高いよ。日本は1%成長でも15年以上、政権交代すらおきないほど安定してるけど、中国が8%以下になったら、”
15年以上ってバブル崩壊したのは外需減ったからじゃないだろう。ずっと増え続けていたじゃないか。今年外需が暴落したときに日本の成長はどうなってる?見てみたいよ。
中国は外需でやってるけどとりあえず日本の数倍外国投資を受けている。外国企業は中国でアホみたいに儲かっている。日本とは相当違う。そこで日本が特にせこいという指摘。
”Thirdly.You won’t be nice to opponent unless either you are not rich enough or think liberal to some extent.
Fourthly.You’re intentionally counting out what Tibetans and Uyghurs think.
Their opinon is the most important. ””
現実主義で行きたいよ俺は。歴史上経済発展しないまま政治体制や民衆の考え方がリベラルになった例はない。実際のところ発展してから丸くなるのを期待するしかないんだ。
それかもちろん一生懸命牽制して孤立させること。でも世界中が中国に投資して儲かってるからその可能性はゼロ。さてどうしよう。
ウイグル人などが格差があって置いてかれている感情があるのはわかる。それがあるから暴動を起こしているだろう。いい生活している人は暴動を起こさない。
じゃあ現実に中国は領土をよこさないという前提でどうやってウイグルやチベット人の経済状況を改善させるしかない。さてどうしよう。
民族自決の民族や人権で考えるのは気持ちいいかもしれないけど、実際に状況改善につながっていない。暴動を起こして平民を殺すことを正当化・扇動するのも問題解決にならない。
”China would never get reform if you sit and wait for corruption and organzied crime to dissappear.Because they never will.Either in China,or Japan or anywhere””
いやケタが違う。本当に。特に汚職がひどすぎる。黒社会問題はまあある程度抑えればいいだけの話だが、
“doesn’t excites me that much if you are reffering to 南方都市報 and 南方週報.And there’s always Global Times. ”
オッケーKvWは日本語できないから発言権ないなら、そっちは中国語できないから発言権ないよな? じゃ俺は読めるから言っとくよ。南方都市報はまあ主流ではないが一定の影響力はある。去年のチベット暴動で政府の鎮圧を敢えて批判したし。なかなかですよ。もちろん政府から反発きたけど、記者が捕まってないし今でも普通に働いている。社説は人権人権人権ばっか言ってるよ。「普遍的価値観」とかさ。期待してあげようぜ。
”Coming from of a guy who totally buy into stereotypical idea from revisionist Japanologist who can’t even read Japanese properly after four decades?”

Cool, KvW is a crackpot, you know it better. But the fact that institutional reform in Japan is almost impossible because there is not a clear center of power, he said it, and its true, and is still true. Hell, I’m a language student and very personal about the need to learn the local language, but some people do have insights from other sources. Certainly the guy was here long enough to form an opinion.
And anyway no one likes Bush nor american imperialism so I don’t see what’s so wrong with his new views. If he thinks Japan is bad but preferable to Haliburton, he has a point.

” Or would Marxy really want to be mentioned in the sentence after Wolferen? ”
They certainly feel the same way about Dentsu, for example.

”I don’t doubt you’ll find “China,the beacon and savior of the world liberalism”. ”
馬鹿にしすぎだな。住んでみないとわかんねえだろ。俺が無知だっていうなら知識を蓄えてきますよ。

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By: Aceface http://cominganarchy.com/2009/07/07/end-hanification-remembering-urumqi-circa-2003/comment-page-3/#comment-390123 Tue, 14 Jul 2009 15:50:24 +0000 http://cominganarchy.com/?p=6295#comment-390123 “虐殺の有無は唯一の基準か。”

第一の基準だ。中国の日本を判断する基準もそれだろ。別にチベット人の総意が中国人にラマ支配からの開放を頼んだわけでもなく、経済成長に向けた投資は併合を正当化するためのものなんだから。それにウイグル同様、あまりチベット人は恩恵にあずかっていないか、格差が大きいため、漢人だけのための経済成長だと感じている。。

”でもダライラマたちのデマは中国で換算すると日本人が二億人殺したと主張するみたいなものだな。そんなひどいならあんなでかい嘘をつく必要ないし。”

人口比率から考えればチベット人の犠牲者の数がチベット社会に持つ重みは、中国人にとっての「億単位」に十分値するよ。
ダライラマは中国人を殺すことを奨励してもいないし、中国政府が彼にするように罵倒してもいない。冷戦中のCIAによるチベットの反政府ゲリラは、ダライラマの影響力の弱い東チベットのカムパ族を中心に編成された。ダライラマが武力闘争に反対だったからだ。彼の最大の罪が誇張なら、それは大目にみられるんじゃないの。中国だって白髪三千丈がお家芸だし、はるかにひどい宣伝してるんだしさ。

”Until the US bankrupts, now lets see what happens.”

外需依存は中国の方が日本よりも遥かに高いよ。日本は1%成長でも15年以上、政権交代すらおきないほど安定してるけど、中国が8%以下になったら、どうなるやら。let’s see what happens.

“but I doubt what the economy of a country incapable of building their own cars will look like.”

Well,Americans will build Toyota in American factory,I guess.

“It’s really an economic success story. But then don’t expect gratitude, especially from net-cafe kids.”

But it’s the net-cafe kids and their parents gain more from economic relation from Japan,either that is investment,trade,yen loan or oversea development aid.
If they don’t feel the gratitude,fine.But don’t expect the same from Uyghurs or Tibetans.No Chinese has been killed by Japanese on their soil since 1945.nor Japanese being the agent of oppression in everyday life.Same cannot be said about Tibetans and Uyghurs in their relation with Chinese.

“It’s not like 2chan is calling for sino-japanese friendship. ”

Some in 2chan does.Anyway,the reason 2chan being anti-Chinese/Korean is because real life environment promotes Sino-Japanese(or Korea-Japan)friendship and they expect no opinion but support that.Which is why they see hypocricy,especially they fell(or know) the counterpart don’t share the Japanese enthusiasm.

”Didn’t feel any change of view respect Japan politics”

Not the internal,but it’s way of dealing international issues.He proclaimes EU-Japan stronger ties to halt the U.S.

” its no surprise that after marketing a dozen books to the japanese public and having not much impact he got bored and looked for another topic. ”

Ever heard a phrase called “One trick pony”?Problem about KvW is he can barely speak any Japanese and has very little literacy.Lots of Japanese papers has been translated by a Japanese woman in his office.

“China can’t reform right now”

China would never get reform if you sit and wait for corruption and organzied crime to dissappear.Because they never will.Either in China,or Japan or anywhere.

“I didn’t make a point of Japanese media being biased”

You did.Scroll up and read one of your early comments.

“If China gets bullied about Tibet and Xinjiang now they’re gonna hate everyone for millenia.”

Two good news
One:We are not “bullying” China
two:None of us live for millenia.So let’s speak out what we believe in and do we want while we are still here.We only live once.

“When China gets rich, liberal and nice, maybe they discover that the damn deserts over the West just aren’t worth the trouble. ”

Maybe,but maybe not.
First of all,we are not so sure whether China would be “rich”.Because of massive population
Secondly,wide income gap and lack of rule of lawa and democratic institution will never allow liberalism an influential philosophy among majority.
Thirdly.You won’t be nice to opponent unless either you are not rich enough or think liberal to some extent.
Fourthly.You’re intentionally counting out what Tibetans and Uyghurs think.
Their opinon is the most important.

“Bullying them now is just counterproductive. ”

Which is what Sun-bin wrote during the riot in Lhasa and I found that pathetic,especially he reject responsibility of Chinese policy.

“But Japanese media as a custom doesn’t try very hard to take a stance,”

That’s because J-media is dominated by newspapers with millions of prints.They need to stay on average to have everyone satisfy and Japanese values objectivity.

“and will retract anything with a little pressure. ”

That happened mostly in report regarding North Korea before 2002 and China.
Which is why most of the NK report in Japan is highly antagonistic.
China is slightly better than NK in that regard.Nonethelss,anyone who had convered China faced lots of pressure from Embassy of China.Which is the reason why there are many,and I mean MANY who are pro-Taiwan in the industry.
Another factor is many J-reporters feel sense of guilt in dealing with Koreans and Chinese for the past.And sometimes these feelings are being exploited.
It also helps reporters explaining themselves why they bent the pressure and choose to be a good news supplier on China(and South Korea)that they are ultimately doing for the sake of better relationship.

“There’s a certain intelectual force centered on the Guangzhou-based Southern Weekend newspaper. And those guys are purebred liberals. Its NYT stuff over there. Of course they’re not mainstream, but they have some influence, and its growing . ”

This newest “China becoming liberal and democratic”doesn’t excites me that much if you are reffering to 南方都市報 and 南方週報.And there’s always Global Times.

“if I sense China is really an incorrigible fascist hegemon who’s gonna eat our babies, I’ll be the first to tell you.”

Coming from of a guy who totally buy into stereotypical idea from revisionist Japanologist who can’t even read Japanese properly after four decades?
The guy who holds indentical sentiment on Chinese nationalsm with angry youth and his final solution to Uyghurs are “thumb up for the lynching thing?”

You don’t need to inform me on that.I can already guess what’s going to be like.
I don’t doubt you’ll find “China,the beacon and savior of the world liberalism”.
As for me,I don’t even believe whether you actually know the meaning of the word.

What I want you to find out instead is why are Chinese always start saying on internet debate that “I’m not Chinese myself”when they are disguising?

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By: spandrell http://cominganarchy.com/2009/07/07/end-hanification-remembering-urumqi-circa-2003/comment-page-3/#comment-390122 Tue, 14 Jul 2009 14:02:23 +0000 http://cominganarchy.com/?p=6295#comment-390122 M-bone, I didn’t make a point of Japanese media being biased; I just highlighted a certain bogus report I saw on TV. The japanese media attitude toward China is pretty good, certainly much better than whatever is written on European papers, where everything is ‘evil commies slaughter peaceful protesters’. But Japanese media as a custom doesn’t try very hard to take a stance, and will retract anything with a little pressure.
“Finally, are you seriously arguing that China is being moved by educated people in a liberal / civil society direction that Japan never had?”
There’s a certain intelectual force centered on the Guangzhou-based Southern Weekend newspaper. And those guys are purebred liberals. Its NYT stuff over there. Of course they’re not mainstream, but they have some influence, and its growing . That the government doesn’t shut them out means something.
I’ll be moving to China next year, if I sense China is really an incorrigible fascist hegemon who’s gonna eat our babies, I’ll be the first to tell you.

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By: M-Bone http://cominganarchy.com/2009/07/07/end-hanification-remembering-urumqi-circa-2003/comment-page-3/#comment-390121 Tue, 14 Jul 2009 13:55:09 +0000 http://cominganarchy.com/?p=6295#comment-390121 “M-bone should understand it if he lives over here. ”

I understand Japanese and have been reading your Japanese exchanges, but Aceface is getting so detailed that I don’t have anything to add…

“his stuff is still manufactured crap. ”

We found something to agree on – much Japanese popular culture is crap, especially TV. But if you look at the 1950-present period, I think that you would have a hard time arguing that Japan hasn’t produced a film and literature that ranks among the best in the world and has a great deal of liberal/progressive/critical material – Imai Tadashi and Yamamoto Satsuo were some of Japan’s most popular directors in the golden age (which is in the past, but now the LDP are getting voted out – you can’t have it all). America, for all its strength in civil society and all of its deep discrimination problems historically, has still not produced films like Kiku to Isamu, Doro no Kawa, Hashi no nai Kawa, or Koshikei.

“China has a thug problem going back thousands of years.”

Every country has a thug problem going back thousands of years. Some got over it.

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By: spandrell http://cominganarchy.com/2009/07/07/end-hanification-remembering-urumqi-circa-2003/comment-page-3/#comment-390120 Tue, 14 Jul 2009 13:31:57 +0000 http://cominganarchy.com/?p=6295#comment-390120 “You are a liberal who supports lynching and killing minority people???”
Hey, some liberals in the Us have talked about throwing nukes into Mecca.

“ダライラマ統治下では大量虐殺はなかったこと。つまりチベット人にとってはダライラマのほうが何倍もマシ。 ”
虐殺の有無は唯一の基準か。南京の話はしかり。でもダライラマたちのデマは中国で換算すると日本人が二億人殺したと主張するみたいなものだな。そんなひどいならあんなでかい嘘をつく必要ないし。

“May be you should have translated the last word in English”
I don’t think “stingy” captures the whole meaning, and M-bone should understand it if he lives over here.
“‘ ll discuss with the man on how his never ending conspiracy theory on Japanese entertainment world is giving bad effect to the mental health of expat youth next time I bump into him in Kichijoji. ”
haha, I know you know the guy. I don’t read him that often; sorry but he’s not my mentor. It’s not more the conspiracy theory I enjoy, is the aesthetic criticism. I really don’t know or care if Johnny’s rapes little boys, his stuff is still manufactured crap.

”.It would probably be different if you don’t write some bogus claims in every single sentence you post on format that I need to reply”
Gentlemen sorry to tell you you started this format of replying to each sentence. I don’t like it either, gets tiring.
“Added to that Japan didn’t just build export driven economy,Japan also supported American economy by buying U.S bonds more than anyone for years.It was (and still is)in many way,a win-win strategy”
Until the US bankrupts, now lets see what happens. Toyota may sell more cars, but I doubt what the economy of a country incapable of building their own cars will look like. It doesn’t look good.

“We also want to sell some Toyotas and flat screens in the process. ”
Sure, Japan and China have both benefited greatly. It’s really an economic success story. But then don’t expect gratitude, especially from net-cafe kids. It’s not like 2chan is calling for sino-japanese friendship.
China can’t reform right now, they’ve tried to have elections at the village level; what happened was that the corrupt official just flooded the village with signs saying he’ll give 100 yuan for vote. Or he’ll get some gangsters to get people scared. China has a thug problem going back thousands of years. You need to fix that first; and you need strong central power for that.
If China gets bullied about Tibet and Xinjiang now they’re gonna hate everyone for millenia. When China gets rich, liberal and nice, maybe they discover that the damn deserts over the West just aren’t worth the trouble. Its not even the 50s anymore, the economies there can’t sustain that many people. Hans who can are leaving Xinjiang little by little, and there’s really nothing in Tibet to even plunder. Bullying them now is just counterproductive.

About Van Wolferen, I’ve read some things he’s written recently about Japan. Didn’t feel any change of view respect Japan politics; its no surprise that after marketing a dozen books to the japanese public and having not much impact he got bored and looked for another topic.

“But then again,I’m enjoying this”
じゃいいじゃないですか。試験期間というのは忙しいながらも暇でもある。

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By: M-Bone http://cominganarchy.com/2009/07/07/end-hanification-remembering-urumqi-circa-2003/comment-page-3/#comment-390118 Tue, 14 Jul 2009 13:23:31 +0000 http://cominganarchy.com/?p=6295#comment-390118 “and so is M-Bone,I’d assume”

Up to a point. I mean, in 2009, do we really have to argue against “The Enigma of Japanese Power”? Or would Marxy really want to be mentioned in the sentence after Wolferen?

“Making China look like an agressive and repressive hegemon attempting to take the liberties of the Japanese people and eat your babies is just not true”

Was this about the media or about what we were saying? I’m taking it as being related to your earlier ponits about the Japanese media being strongly anti-China.

The Sankei is wrong – don’t read it. Most Japanese people don’t.
Okay, case study time – I think that it is instructive to look at the way that the major Japanese daily papers handled the Beijing Olympics. Nikkei is hugely pro China for obvious economic reasons. Asahi had Funabashi Yoichi compraing Beijng 2008 with Tokyo 1964 – the birth of civil society and international connections and all that. The Yomiuri was just oh so happy that Chinese people love Ai-chan. NHK announcers during the openeing ceremoy spent the whole time gushing about how far China has come. Aceface’s point that the Japanese media leans toward 親中 does not hold for ALL coverage, but it does for MOST.

“The system may be somehow democratic but it sure is nothing like we have in the West.”

It is times like this when it pays to be specific. Is Mexico part of “the West”? Russia? Bulgaria? They sure think they are.

“destroy the myth of a liberal Japan. ”

I didn’t know that there was a myth of a liberal Japan. Maybe in Vogel 30 years ago… but isn’t the real myth “crazy militarist Japan is coming back”?

Finally, are you seriously arguing that China is being moved by educated people in a liberal / civil society direction that Japan never had?

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By: Aceface http://cominganarchy.com/2009/07/07/end-hanification-remembering-urumqi-circa-2003/comment-page-3/#comment-390116 Tue, 14 Jul 2009 12:38:46 +0000 http://cominganarchy.com/?p=6295#comment-390116 “ハ!青海省と四川の自治県を統合してよこせと。青海に黄河と長江が生まれている。”

別にダライラマは青海省のすべてをよこせなんていってないし、チベット人が住む民族自治区の合併は行政上意味があると思うね。
1979年には東北3省や甘粛省などモンゴル人が居住している地域を内蒙古自治区に統合したことがあるから。別に目くじら立てるようなことじゃない。たしかに青海に黄河と長江の水源があるけど、別に大したものじゃない。

ちなみに青海省には長江と黄河だけじゃなくてメコン河の水源もあるけど、全部環境破壊してるのは中国じゃない。遊牧民のチベット人のほうがすくなくても環境面ではましに扱うよ。

“チベットには中国人が百万人以上殺している発言。59年に2百万人いたかどうか怪しい。そういう人信じれる??そもそもどんな支配していたんだダライラマさん。 ”

オレだって南京で中国人が30万人も死んだなんて思わないし、数字のいい加減さでは中国もチベットもどっちもどっち。ただチベット亡命政府は、自由にチベットに入れないのでちゃんとした調査ができない。共産党の内部文書にもアクセスできない。わかっているのはダライラマ統治下では大量虐殺はなかったこと。つまりチベット人にとってはダライラマのほうが何倍もマシ。

”but i just don´t buy all the “we´re part of the Western world, we´re whole hearted allies of yours” thing. ”

But it’s just happened to be a proven fact.At least Japan has been an American ally and member of G8 summit.

“The system may be somehow democratic but it sure is nothing like we have in the West. ”

Only if you discount Italy from “the west”,that is.
However,all is not so surprise since Japan neither locates geographically in west nor part of civilization.But that doesn’t mean Japan doesn’t share fundamental value nor basic interest with “the west”.
What eveyone should be surprised about is Japan had proved being “somehow democratic” in the area where democracy never existed for thousand of years and still don’t in many places in the region.

“I mostly agree with Karen van Wolferen´s position. Marxy´s criticism of japanese culture from a liberal perspective are also spot on. Don´t always agree with him but it does help destroy the myth of a liberal Japan. ”

And I doubt you neither read anything of what Wolfren’s writing after his “Enigma of the Japanese Power”nor his current political view.

Wolfren DOES believe in liberal Japan these days,at least in the way of maintaining liberal world order and saving the civic society from merciless American style market economy fundamentalism.
In his book(or should say “books”about half dozen of them published in the last decade),the outlier and threat to the world is not the headless stateless nation of Japan,but George W.Bush’s (and his loyal supporter of his foreign policy,Barack Obama’s)American empire.Where diplomacy is lead by imperialistic ambition and democracy is manipilated by iron triangle of media/military/and military complex.And people increasingly becoming insular.
Whether you take his word with grain of salt or not is your choice.I’ve always thought why foreigners never check the accuracy and validity of his info and analysis on Japan.But it seems Americans do so now since they are the KvW’s target now.All of the American publishers have turned down the project of publishing his books and his name virtually dissapeared from English language journalism.
It seems Americans finally discovered KvW’s sense of the reality on world affiars,or maybe KvW is right about America,and we shall see.

And on Marxy’s criticism on Japanese culture,he will be thrilled to know that his supporter on thesis is a cool-aid drinkin’ college kid who proclaim ethnic cleansing in Xinjiang.
I’ ll discuss with the man on how his never ending conspiracy theory on Japanese entertainment world is giving bad effect to the mental health of expat youth next time I bump into him in Kichijoji.

“But anyway, having an export driven economy knowing that America HAS to support you (as they had during the Cold War) is kinda… せこい。”

May be you should have translated the last word in English if you are interested
in others to particiate(of which I doubt that they exist)

But I don’t think describing Japanese post war rise should be described in words like “Sekoi=meaning stingy in Japanese” since Japan has been funding both international institution and U.S military presense to secure the global staibility and prosperity more than anyone.Added to that Japan didn’t just build export driven economy,Japan also supported American economy by buying U.S bonds more than anyone for years.It was (and still is)in many way,a win-win strategy.

Another word for sekio=narrow minded probably don’t fit the situation since Post-war Japanese rise is probably the only case in the history that had one nation has rised to power status without military conflict with neighboring nation nor regional hegemon.This was only possible by careful diplomatic management,which is not dramatic as to make the headline in the Newyork Times,but avoiding such case was the very intention of Japanese diplomatic strategy.
“America is in no place to buy Toyotas and flat screens anymore ”

Not so sure about the flat screens but they are likely to buy Toyotas more than ever in the future since Toyota will probably be the topdog in American auto market.

“But I do think the (China’s)government is doing an effort to make things better”

Well,who doesn’t? And here we are focusing the China’s effort in Xinjiang which is not the case,objectively seen that is.

” that educated people are pushing the country on a liberal direction. ”

I don’t think this isn’t happening in regard to Uyghurs.There could be a liberal in China,but I don’t think they are neither many nor influential enough to change the situation.
Making China look like an agressive and repressive hegemon attempting to take the liberties of the Japanese people and eat your babies is just not true, and certainly not helping. ”

“Making China look like an agressive and repressive hegemon attempting to take the liberties of the Japanese people and eat your babies is just not true, and certainly not helping.”

Never said anything about eating babies,but the logic you’ve been presenting in the past few days is enough to believe China is agressive and repressive.Not exactly a global hegemon may be,but will certainly the regional one.It helps to see China without the looking glass of wishful thinking,but see it as what it is.Chinese attitude toward Uyghurs and the emotional nationalism toward foreign criticism helps you to look in to the inner psyche of the certain aspect of the Chinese and it’s state of the nation,I think.

“If Japan is afraid of China then stop giving out money, get some nukes for yourselves, and go to sleep. ”

We have our reasons to give Chinese financialy support.One of them is not to be branded as “sekoi” by foreigners.But the biggest reason is to help and accelerate the modernaization process so that China can fit into the regional order and resturcutre their country so that China won’t be a threat to the region.We also want to sell some Toyotas and flat screens in the process.
However,things will go the wrong way if china’s political reform don’t match the pace of their economy or the world view of Chinese to change and accept certain global standard of liberal democracies.Which in my eyes seems happening and Spandrell don’t.

“But anyway this discussion is getting too long,”

Yeah,I’ve realized that.It would probably be different if you don’t write some bogus claims in every single sentence you post on format that I need to reply or at least use some common sense or common knowledge on the subject.

But then again,I’m enjoying this.(and so is M-Bone,I’d assume)

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By: tomojiro http://cominganarchy.com/2009/07/07/end-hanification-remembering-urumqi-circa-2003/comment-page-3/#comment-390115 Tue, 14 Jul 2009 12:30:33 +0000 http://cominganarchy.com/?p=6295#comment-390115 SPANDRELL

You are a liberal who supports lynching and killing minority people???

日本の政治や社会を批判するのと、中国の少数民族の虐殺にthumbs upというのとは全然ちがうぜ。ま、日本の「リベラル」にも非常に多い典型的な「偽善者」タイプだね。いかにもだ。

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By: spandrell http://cominganarchy.com/2009/07/07/end-hanification-remembering-urumqi-circa-2003/comment-page-3/#comment-390113 Tue, 14 Jul 2009 09:54:06 +0000 http://cominganarchy.com/?p=6295#comment-390113 “Hence your dislike of nokyo?”
Hell no. Food prices over here do hurt, but I’m sympathetic to the farmer’s plight. Its just that vote buying machines aren’t my cup of tea. Just my two cents.

“チベットは違うよ。ダライラマは独立を主張していないから。でも中国は信じないし、交渉もしない。”
ハ!青海省と四川の自治県を統合してよこせと。青海に黄河と長江が生まれている。チベットには中国人が百万人以上殺している発言。59年に2百万人いたかどうか怪しい。そういう人信じれる??そもそもどんな支配していたんだダライラマさん。

But anyway this discussion is getting too long, so let me summarize my points in English so everyone can participate. About Japan, my criticism comes from all the years I´ve lived here in an almost all-japanese environment. So I don´t have to make clear every point, I mostly agree with Karen van Wolferen´s position. Marxy´s criticism of japanese culture from a liberal perspective are also spot on. Don´t always agree with him but it does help destroy the myth of a liberal Japan.
Sure Japan is a rich and nice country, but i just don´t buy all the “we´re part of the Western world, we´re whole hearted allies of yours” thing. The system may be somehow democratic but it sure is nothing like we have in the West. Which is cool, hey, your country, do as you please. But anyway, having an export driven economy knowing that America HAS to support you (as they had during the Cold War) is kinda… せこい。 America is in no place to buy Toyotas and flat screens anymore so let´s see how this wonderful economy adapts.

As of China, sure it´s a shitty country, I´ve been there, I speak the language, I´ve been harassed by hooligans, seen people live 3 together in a small room in a Shanghai suburb without a hukou. It certainly is no liberal democracy. But I do think the government is doing an effort to make things better, that educated people are pushing the country on a liberal direction. Making China look like an agressive and repressive hegemon attempting to take the liberties of the Japanese people and eat your babies is just not true, and certainly not helping.
If Japan is afraid of China then stop giving out money, get some nukes for yourselves, and go to sleep.

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