
A Han Chinese man carries a spiked steel bar while using his cell phone to take photos as he joins a mob of Han Chinese men attacking Uighur properties in Urumqi. (AP Photo/Ng Han Guan)
Starting on the evening of July 5th, riots erupted in Urumqi when Uyghur rioters looted Han Chinese businesses and killed and injured hundreds of Han Chinese. This was followed by a tough police crackdown, which has been followed in turn by Han Chinese revenge violence against Uyghurs.
That this type of event has occurred doesn’t surprise me. I’m sorry to say that the only surprise is that this took so long.
When I got off the train in Urumqi in the spring of 2003, the first thing I realized was that I wasnt in “China Proper” anymore. The streets of the city were diverse—not only are there Uyghurs and Han Chinese, but other Turkic and Mongol people, and even Pakistanis and Russians, were out on the street. But once you went into post offices, hotels, and saw the police on the street, all the faces were Han Chinese. To me, a casual but aware observer, the resulting economic divide and ethnic tensions that resulted from this active policy of “Hanification” was obvious. For years, China’s government has been shipping out Han Chinese to the frontier territories, give them jobs, and indirectly task them with making the place more “Chinese” and thus reducing the risk that such places will want to go independent in the future. But this comes at a heavy price with regard to ethnic relations and the economic divide between locals and the imported Han Chinese, and ultimately aggravates the very problems of separatism that the government wants to snuff out.
The spark of the current riots apparently began in a toy factory in Shaoguan, near Hong Kong but thousands of miles from Urumqi, when rumors began to spread online that a Uyghur migrant worker had raped a Han Chinese women. Han workers attacked their Uighur co-workers, killing two and injuring dozens more. Pictures and videos of this were distributed widely online—witness this youtube video, posted June 26th, and titled “Chinese Commies Massacre Uyghur Innocent Workers 3,” with the comment “26.jun.2009.China’s GuangDong Province , ShaoGuan city. Whole City attacking Innocent Uyghur workers and killed many of them and wounded hundreds.”
This apparently led to the organization of revenge riots in Urumqi, which began 11 days after this video was posted.
Yet the ethnic mistrust begins with Hanification in the first place. The Uighurs employed at the toy plant in Shaoguan are working there as part of a labor-export scheme promoted by the government to try and help forge bonds between Uighur migrants and Han Chinese workers in eastern China. This is nonsense—China has poured money for development into western China to create jobs and economic growth, but the jobs go to Han Chinese, not locals. China should stop forcing the melting pot, and keep development money flowing in for Urumqi locals. That would also reduce the need to send them to Hong Kong to work in factory jobs.
China’s government is the biggest loser with the recent explosion of violence. The western press is once again scrutinizing China’s actions. The Uyghurs in Urumqi are outraged that they don’t have immediate news on their injured and dead relatives. The Han workers in the factory in Shaoguan believe that the government is still covering up the rape allegations to protect minorities. And public opinion in China feels betrayed because “their” taxes are financing the development in Urumqi where the riots are happening. For my part, let me point out that the Chinese coverage overwhelmingly, although perhaps not explicitly, points the blame at Uyghurs, and makes the Han out as victims. Hopefully China can start to reverse its force migration of Han people into Uyghur territory and Uyghurs into Han territory and try to reverse engineer itself out of this mess.

Comments to this entry
Mutantfrog Travelogue » Blog Archive » End Hanification! Remembering Urumqi circa 2003
July 8, 2009
12:01 am
Adamu
July 8, 2009
12:42 am
Adamu
July 8, 2009
12:53 am
These Uyghurs got a bad deal in the empire game, but given the choice among Kazakhstan, Russia, and China maybe this is the best they could do geographically. Too bad they couldn't have been placed within Turkish borders. Then they'd be potential EU members instead of getting slowly ethnically cleansed like the Native Americans.
Aceface
July 8, 2009
1:17 am
Chirol
July 8, 2009
1:35 am
Curzon
July 8, 2009
1:41 am
Eddie
July 8, 2009
2:39 am
M-Bone
July 8, 2009
2:50 am
"That sure didn't seem to halt too much of what they did in Tibet and neighboring provinces last year."
It seems that the Chinese government has a new nationalist ace in the hole - mass anger at Western criticisms only make the Chinese government narrative stronger. "Ethnic types threaten our great state" is good. "Ethnic types supported by ignorant former imperialist exploiters of our great state threaten our great state" is better.
But hey, we get pissed off but like our 100 yen shops and 3000 yen DVD players too much to actually do anything.
tdaxp
July 8, 2009
2:56 am
1. A Turk-v-Han race riot, which is strikingly similar to, say, black v. korean violence in New York City (a market-oriented population excels at the market, while an honor-based population does not)
2. National liberation violence of the people of East Turkestan
I don't think these two views are antagonistic.
The July 4th Incident (a coincidental date?) had a death toll roughly 8-1 in "favor" of Turk attacks on Han. The Han counter-incident was largely calmed down by police.
This makes sense. The Turk position has been eroding in East Turkestan since the 1950s. More specifically, since the death of Stalin, which led Mao to abort the formation of the Manchurian SSR (Gao Gang, 1954), British/Indian sovereignty over Tibet (1959), and what the CCP calls "splittism" in general.
Further, the Chinese position is the same as that as Sun Yatsen and Chiang Kaicheck - there exists one Chinese Nation (minzu), which is a civic nationality and not an ethnic nationality. While China engages in various race-based affirmative action programs, Beijing is against race-based government, such as the East Turkestan nationalists want.
A last thought: China has been lying to the world and itself about the Dalai Lama for 50 years. Many common Chinese actually think that anti-terrorist equipment in Beijing (for instance, bomb disposal units) are in case of Dalai attacks. If they think Tibetan Buddhists are violent, they have no idea what the future may hold wrt Turks and Islam.
spandrell
July 8, 2009
3:07 am
Hanification is the only chance they have of holding on to the territory.
dj
July 8, 2009
3:43 am
Since the recent economic rise after the Mao years the CCP leadership has come to the conclusion that no amount of economic prosperity will make the Turkic people of Xinjiang more palpable to being part of China. I find this interesting because that is a very non-Marxist conclusion to reach. So in order to consolidate Xinjiang they ramped up the internal colonialism through organizations like Xinjiang Production and Construction Corps (Bingtuan) which basically hire male youth from the Shanghai area. The XPCC runs all development like a paramilitary organization and is not interested in hiring Uighurs. So unlike the east coast Xinjiang has a state run economy with institutional racism on top of that.
What bothers me most is how China (The GMD/KMT has the same lame claims too) justifies their presence there. The Portuguese were in Africa longer than the Hans have dominated East Turkistan. Plus the disgusting fabrications of Asian mummies trying to claim that Caucasoid stole the land.
End the Hanification |
July 8, 2009
7:15 am
David
July 8, 2009
7:57 am
catoneinutica
July 8, 2009
8:54 am
Sorry, boys. My money's on the secularists. Sorry if any god-bothering misogynists and homophobes out there are offended.
M-Bone
July 8, 2009
11:28 am
M-Bone
July 8, 2009
11:31 am
Think Ming!
July 8, 2009
11:55 am
Not wanting to nitpick, but I consider this statement slightly misleading.
I have spent several months in Xinjiang.
I saw plenty of Uighur policemen, as well as plenty of Uighur military personnel.
There are also plenty of Uighurs working in the big hotels. I saw *some* big hotels that appeared to employ no Uighurs, but most of the big hotels I visited had significant numbers of Uighur staff.
I don't think I ever went into a post office.
Aceface
July 8, 2009
12:03 pm
China/Xinjang SAR government spends huge bucks for maintaining Kazakh languge TV channel of which I used to watch with my wife in Ulaanbaatar.Lots of Kazakh ethnic musics and dancing and news in Kazakh langugage Despite Mongolia also has Kazakh as ethnic minority,they don't have such channel.
You can also see Kazakhstani TVaired from Almaty in Mongolia,but this one cares little about ethnic heritage.I saw "Matrix Re-Loaded"with Keanu Reeves being dubbed in Kazakh.No dancing in ethnic costume unlike the one bieng aired from Urmuqi.China also airs Mongolian language program from Huhhot.but these are basically Potyomkin village-like media with little real demand.
Another thing I learned was many ethnic minority in China are very eager to send their kids to mandarin school oppose to what many outsider believes.
I talked to a Kazakh and lots of Inner Mongolians on this once in Tokyo and they told me,"Where can my children go with Kazakh/Mongolian education?You have to speak Mandalin to get the decent jobs."
ElamBend
July 8, 2009
2:04 pm
Your last comment holds true except for the Tibetans and Uygurs who have rejected the cultural support and refuse to assimilate, for good or for ill.
A sense of populations scale should enter into the debate also. Xianjiang has approximately 16-19 Million people, roughly half of which are Uygur and the other half Han. It will not be independent of China short of an anti-han pogrom of the scale we haven't seen in a while. China must find a way to get a vanguard of Uygur's to buy into the empire, particularly in the doling out of jobs. Also, it might consider DE-emphasizing the cultural education and re-emphasizing Mandarin/science education among Xianjiang children (i.e. stop reminding them they are different).
I predict intermittent bloodshed ahead, but China will muddle through. The Uygur's do not have the numbers to break away. I sympathize for them, but in their position, I would worry less about killing innocent Han merchants and more on getting rich and educating my children.
China's only solution is to assimilate Uygurs into the governing fabric
McKellar
July 8, 2009
6:38 pm
Jing
July 8, 2009
9:19 pm
These nice central Asian turkish muslims will certainly behave like East Coast liberals when it comes to political power sharing and not at all like other central asian turkish muslims. America, Canada, and Europe should certainly invite more of these warm colorful friendly people into their nations to increase their multicultural credentials, what could possibly go wrong? Afterall, these muslims are of the lovable and harmless variety.
Might I propose a second alternative to keeping the peace Curzon? Like lining up a couple hundred Uighurs in front of a firing squad, importing more Chinese settlers, and unleashing the Chinese mobs the next time the Uighur's decide it's a smart idea to start a race riot in a city where they are a 15% minority amidst a majority population is descended from hard scrabble settlers and demobilized soldiers. After enough lynchings, I figure the Uighurs will get the message.
Aceface
July 9, 2009
1:06 am
Well,as far as I concern the central Asian Turkish muslims have better records in dealing with former rulicng race.Uyghurs may not start promoting gay rights and protection of ozone layers,but they certainly catches up the way of Chinese in expressing social discontent.
Christ Jing.I knew you are from Uncle Joe Stalin school of multicultralism.But that's waaay beyond line.Even for the internet.We still haven't got any independent report on who's doing the pogrom.None of the Japanese reporters were allowed to talk to the Uyghur victims,but Hans.Chinese medias had made Uyghur an oppressor and Han,the victim in their coverage.Xinjiang is now a new Manchukuo,nothing but.
spandrell
July 9, 2009
1:25 am
Guess you saw all the Uighurs in Japan saying that the "peaceful demonstrations" of "youngsters believing in the government, holding Chinese flags" were just massacred by sadistic chinese police. Give me a break.
Islam allows lying for political purposes, and they certainly know how to do it.
Jing, thumbs up for the lynching thing. You should send a memo up to Zhongnanhai.
Aceface
July 9, 2009
2:07 am
Nope.Xinjiang was "part of Manchu empire",not Han dominated China.
"Islam allows lying for political purposes, and they certainly know how to do it. "
SPANDRELL,you mindset had proved you can always join the Japanese right wingers.All you have to do is remove "Islam" and insert "Chinese".Problem is they don't promote "lynching things" these days.They even deny it doing just that in the past....
M-Bone
July 9, 2009
2:14 am
M-Bone
July 9, 2009
2:30 am
Jing
July 9, 2009
4:03 am
Xinjiang isn't the new Manchuko. The Japanese never had the numbers to demographically change reality on the ground no matter how much they wished they did. In any case, the area now known as Xinjiang, didn't just magically appear in Chinese history with the Qing, there have been Roman style Chinese military settler garrisons in the area since the Han and beyond. In any case, pointless rationalizations aside, the area is Chinese territory because Chinese soldiers and Chinese civilians (who are the majority population) says it is and no one else is in a position to argue.
spandrell
July 9, 2009
4:17 am
I'm not Chinese myself, but my friends mostly have it right; Xinjiang and Tibet is their Far West, and they've been there longer than Americans in yours. If you want them to stay in the eastern part of China, Americans should forsake their western half too.
And for god's sake, Xinjiang would be a Central Asian backwater failed state, these peoples just can't govern themselves. And Uighurs don't even have had the Soviet secularist education that mantains those places peaceful today; Uighurs are the most islamist of the turks, we surely don't need another islamist state today.
spandrell
July 9, 2009
4:21 am
What should I answer to that? that you're worse, you smell or something?
M-Bone
July 9, 2009
4:51 am
Aceface
July 9, 2009
5:14 am
Somehow I find the same about Chinese ruled Xinjiang.However at least in those CIS republics self determination were achieved.There will be progress in the future.
Mongolia,also another country Chinese claimed "belong to us for centuries and stolen by nasty Soviets" had achieved democratic election and smooth transtion of power.If Mongols can do it,I'm pretty sure Turks can in the future.
"Oh and in all of the aforementioned CIS states there has been a dramatic decline in the non-majority populations despite having been dominated by the Soviets for so long that some of them could barely speak their original language and used Russian as the lingua franca. "
That's not a big surprise.After the collapse of Soviet Union,many government funded projects have vanished.Many Russians simply find better opportunity in big city in Russia proper instead of staying middle of nowhere.This happened everywhere either in independent CIS republic or Siberia or Far East.I don't see serious violation of human rights to Russians in central Asian CIS republics that can be compared to what the Russians did to locals or ethnic violence among the locals erupted after the USSR dissolvement.
"Xinjiang isn't the new Manchuko. The Japanese never had the numbers to demographically change reality on the ground no matter how much they wished they did."
Perhaps.But the method and justification of the governance clearly has resemblance.Those who don't learn from the past would be blind to the future,
I guess.
"In any case, the area now known as Xinjiang, didn't just magically appear in Chinese history with the Qing, there have been Roman style Chinese military settler garrisons in the area since the Han and beyond. "
Yes and no.Before Qing it was ruled by Zhungars and before that by Uyghurs.China had garrisons in the are from time to time.But then so what?Romans had garrisons in Britain.Japan had garrisons in Manchuria,America has garrisons in Japan.
"In any case, pointless rationalizations aside, the area is Chinese territory because Chinese soldiers and Chinese civilians (who are the majority population) says it is and no one else is in a position to argue."
A lots of people are in a position to argue.Chinese has been making such argument to the imperialism throughout it's modern history.They accused Japanese,British,French,Dutch,Portugues,Soviets,American and Zionist.
Now it's China's turn.All they have to do is put some of their words and accusation to others into practice.
M-Bone
July 9, 2009
5:25 am
"these peoples just can't govern themselves." - Exactly what Japanese militarists said about north China and what deniers continue to say today.
" If you want them to stay in the eastern part of China, Americans should forsake their western half too." - Japanese right wingers say - Europe and America had brutal colonoies too!
"The Qing didn't conquer Tibet and Xinjiang for fun, they needed to control it military defense of the homeland. " Necessary to conquer Korea and Manchruia to protect Japan, besides, we were doing them a favor.
"Xinjiang, didn't just magically appear in Chinese history with the Qing, there have been Roman style Chinese military settler garrisons in the area since the Han and beyond." Japan formerly ruled part of the Korean peninusla in pre-history, the 1910 amalgamation was a sort of "re-unification" of related peoples.
"The creeping wave of Islamic orthodoxy spreading into their societies I'll save for another day. " Chinese were brutal to their peasants, they had a foul 中華 ideology that justfied violence against minorities, we don't want the horrible Chinese polity spreading so we will establish a zone of racial harmony - Manchuria.
Arguments like these pop up when ignorant people play around with history to justify horrible current attitudes.
spandrell
July 9, 2009
6:17 am
So M-bone now passes from primary school (you bad) to secondary (you say same as him, he bad, you too). Cool. Japanese right wingers are not my cup of tea, but its not like they're retards who inherently just can't have a point.
Aceface, don't teach us history please, we all know the score.ガキじゃないんで。 You're certainly no genius on the matter anyway. comparing Japanese garrisons in Manchuria for 20 years with China's in Turkestan for 2000 is well, ridiculous. I for one never criticized Japanese rule in Korea, I live in Japan, have heard thousands of times how if Japan didn't take it Russia would have. Which is true. Koreans were truly incapable of governing themselves.
But the invasion of Manchuria was mostly an Army solo operation, it wasn't government policy, and not necessary for the survival of Japan. And somebody explain why a civil war in China means China can't govern itself. It's China, for gods sake. They have quite a history of governing things. Japan wasn't there to defend itself, it was there to kill and plunder. Things which they didn't (or to a much lesser extent) in Korea, which as I said was essential for Japan.
I don't think its a coincidence that Unit 731 was in Harbin and not in Pusan.
And please, someone tell me which culture didn´t have a culture which justified violence of minorities. If there is a constant in ALL culture across time and space it´s that. It´s not like there are many Ainus around in Japan. Nor Indians in America. Nor pagans in Europe.
Now who´s thinking victorian here?
M-Bone
July 9, 2009
6:51 am
"Jing, thumbs up for the lynching thing"
The current definitions of genocide used by the UN and elsewhere stress targeted killings of an ethnic, cultural, religious, etc. group. You don't need to wipe them all out. That is clearly what you guys are advocating. In fact, if Jing said exactly what he said here in a public forum, and such killings do take place, he could be sentenced to life imprisonment under current understandings of international law. If Jing is in the UK, Canada, or Australia, he could possibly be jailed just for that post as it falls within the lines of hate speech. I'll just settle for calling you bad guys but seriously, if you want to advocate mass violence in support of political policies that you approve of, you should be prepared for people to treat you like that.
In any case, I love it when people who make points like that in a public forum get self righteous when someone calls them a name.
In any case, your historical relativism ("someone tell me which culture didn´t have a culture which justified violence of minorities") to justify acts of violence that are taking place right now is one reason why historians wouldn't take your arguments seriously. You are applying the logic of pre-modern empires to current disuptes, which is foolish.
"all cultures that happen to exist at this point of history have a right to survive forever" - I don't think so either. But you seem to be arguing that current countires should hang on to whatever land their culture has touched in thousands of years of history by using whatever violence is necessary. What you are also arguing is that "inconvenient" minorities should be crushed by force and culturally eliminated. If an English guy in 1992 had advocated moving hundreds of thousands of Brits into Hong Kong and lynching any Chinese who didn't like the idea, people would have thought him insane. What you are saying doesn't make much more sense.
Japanese garrisons in Manchuria for 20 years? You don't know much about Japanese history, do you?
expresss! 140 dead in the riots in Xinjiang! - Page 28 - Defence Forum Of India | DFI |
July 9, 2009
7:13 am
spandrell
July 9, 2009
7:30 am
Who´s getting self-righteous? I´m upset at your failure to make an argument; I don´t came here to remember the school playground. Aceface at least tries to make a point.
Nobody said the government should exterminate them. But the Uighurs initiated a race riot against civilians! in a city where they're not even a majority. That they should be lynched for setting fire to people´s cars and businesses sounds quite logical to me. At least in Lhasa they are a majority and the Han´s are really scared of them; but in Urumqi I don´t see the Chinese shying out from defending themselves. Uighurs are already fleeing to the countryside.
About HK, just how close is that? Hong Kong had a couple fishing villages there when the English arrived, the Chinese came in droves AFTER the English took it. Because the English wanted them there, of course. Same in Singapore. The English didn´t take chinese coolies by the tens of thousands where they didn´t want them, i.e. Australia.
About the last point; Japan had garrisons there since the Russo-Japanese war; after 1931 they weren´t garrisons anymore, it was a full fledged army controlling what was essentially their own state.
Which of course is comparable to Chinese having garrisons in Turkestan since the Han dynasty.
Roy Berman
July 9, 2009
7:41 am
That's the same argument people used to justify slavery in the US. How do you know they can't govern themselves if they haven't been given a chance to?
Are you aware that the Uyghur actually had an independent kingdom/empire in the 8th-9th century, and that the literate class of the Mongolian and Manchurian empires were largely composed of Uyghur? Both real and theoretical sovereignty over all of these peripheral areas has gone back and forth many times between China (itself often ruled by foreign invaders) and various other states. The history is a lot more complicated than saying "China" has ruled the area for centuries.
Aceface
July 9, 2009
7:44 am
"Aceface, don't teach us history please, we all know the score.ガキじゃないんで。 You're certainly no genius on the matter anyway."
Which is just too bad,kid.My objective here is not to show my genius on the issue,but trying to look like smart guy and an ass both at the same time.
M-Bone
July 9, 2009
7:55 am
How's this for an argument - China should admit that there are different ways of looking at its history, that 中華 thought and current understanings of human rights outlined by organizations to which China belongs are often incompatible, that China's criticisms of the Japanese militarists for moving Japanese settlers into Manchuria in large numbers and using violence to crush local resistance are hypocritical given the Chinese government's use of violence against minorities since around 1950, that a conciliatory position could help to diffuse violence by both sides, and that the current paradigm in China's north clearly is not working and that something new needs to be tried and that something new should not be mass violence that would only turn parts of the Islamic world against China and damage China's international reputation. But why worry about a plan when you can just kill them, right?
"But the Uighurs initiated a race riot "
THE Uighurs didn't, some Uighurs did. I think that those who committed crimes should be punished. You, for some reason, think that random violence against an entire ethnic group is the answer. Great. Essentializing groups like this is the first sign of someone with a nonsensical view of history.
"after 1931 they weren´t garrisons anymore, it was a full fledged army controlling what was essentially their own state. "
So you seem to admit that having garrisons doesn't mean that much, let alone control or legitimacy? Fantastic, Aceface and I win.
In any case, you are using history like some kind of game to justify mass killing, it get it. This is the sort of view of history that pops up on internet forums from time to time, but you would just look like a stammering idiot if you tried to argue any of this in a university classroom.
Roy Berman
July 9, 2009
7:55 am
I'm definitely sympathetic to what happened to Native Americans during the colonization of the continent, but I don't think the comparison makes a whole lot of sense.
The American West was conquered and settled in the 19th century, before there was any popular recognition of indigenous rights or the right of self determination. By contrast, the Chinese West was colonized starting in the second half of the 20th century, after the UN was founded, after decolonization was underway world-wide, and after the US had legally recognized the partial sovereignty of indigenous nations and granted them a great degree of autonomy within reservation areas. (Please don't think I want to be an apologist for US treatment of Native Americans, but only that I am trying to point out that the trend has been, in one case towards more self-determination, and in the other case, less.)
While it is true that various Chinese Empires have had levels of political control over Xinjiang and Tibet, there was never extensive Han settlement there until after the founding of the People's Republic, only a few decades ago. The Han still remain a minority everywhere in Tibet, and even in Xinjiang are a majority only in Urumqi (which itself, incidentally, was not historically as major a Uyghur community as the other population centers of Urumqi.)
spandrell
July 9, 2009
8:02 am
They have had plenty of independent kingdoms, that doesn't make them able to build a modern state. Look at their cousins across the border.
The basic problem I'm stating is Islam, it's just bad policy to encourage a new Islamic state, particularly that size.
Aceface, you're trying to look like an ass? I don't think I get you.
Plenty of Chinese friends on my side though. I try to get their perspective before making a judgement.
Hey, no bad feelings, you're Japanese, your wife is Mongolian, it is natural you dislike the Chinese and want them weaker. That doesn't make you right though.
spandrell
July 9, 2009
8:09 am
The problem is, and talking from a Chinese perspective, the "popular recognition of indigenous rights" came after the American West was conquered, so "oh sorry, can't help it" isn't quite fair.
What is the popular recognition though? It's the Western popular recognition. I can assure you that no such change of mind happened in China, and why should they agree to that? So you expand West, kill the Indians, build a fantastic modern state. Whey China tries to do the same, you tell them "oh well our values have changed". Why should they abide by that? It's none of their business.
The same with climate change; the West industrialises, polutes its land and the atmosphere during 100 years, then gets richer and repents. When China tries to catch up, "oh well our values have changed, you can't do that now".
It's just not fair.
Roy Berman
July 9, 2009
8:16 am
So for the sake of argument, let's say that the Uyghur have no right to a separate state. Does that mean that China should have the right to phase out all Uyghur language education? Does that mean that China should be destroying the Old City of Kashgar against the wishes of the natives and remaking it as a Chinese city? Does that mean that China should have the right to exploit the natural resources of Xinjiang without passing on the profits to the indigenous population?
spandrell
July 9, 2009
8:24 am
And anyway trashing whole cities is hard to blame on chinese racism; Beijingers weren't certainly happy when their city was revamped too. Its just old construction company-officials corruption business. The whole Japan has seen that.
At least they'll build it a prettier city than the concrete mess the LDP has done here.
Roy Berman
July 9, 2009
8:26 am
Sorry, but I think that's kind of a bogus argument. How much anti-colonialist, anti- Western and Japanese Imperialism has their been in Chinese 20th century history? They shouldn't get to have it both ways. If Imperialism/colonialism is bad and China's struggle against their own foreign occupiers was just and noble and getting back HK from the UK was a moral victory, then why is it not bad when they do it to Xinjiang and Tibet? On the other hand, if Chinese Imperialism is justified today, when what was so bad about Britain holding onto HK for another century, or Japan holding onto Manchuria or Taiwan? You say it's not fair for the West to switch attitudes selfishly depending on their own self-interest, but that's exactly what China is doing in regards to its own West.
"The same with climate change; the West industrialises, polutes its land and the atmosphere during 100 years, then gets richer and repents. When China tries to catch up, "oh well our values have changed, you can't do that now". "
I don't think climate change is, in reality, a comparable argument, because frankly China is going to be MORE fucked by it than North America and Europe anyway. Climate change isn't a moral question at all- it's in China's own long-term interests to get on board. You think their desertification problems are bad now...
Aceface
July 9, 2009
8:28 am
I don't particulary "dislike" Chinese as Chinese dislikes Japanese, with good reasons.And there are many Japanese who loves China,which is difficult for many Chinese to understand.As for me,let me say that I don't agree some of their ideas on things,especially with Central Asia.
Wanting China weaker,I don't know.All I can tell you from Japanese experience is Japan didn't become weaker after we lost colonies in the continent.It made us wealthier and freeier in some perspectives.However, I do know if China keep on going stronger with current logic and mindset it will certainly bring something really freightening situation for Asia pacific region.What's happening to theUyghurs is just beginning.
Roy Berman
July 9, 2009
8:32 am
spandrell
July 9, 2009
8:34 am
What´s with all the 中華 thing? I know that´s the way they teach in Japan (eternally funny how Japanese historiography uses modern PC minority complex), ever thought Japanese can be a bit... biased when talking about China?
Sure, not ALL uyghurs rioted. Not all Uyghurs have been targeted though. Not all Uyghurs have been arrested? But Chinese civilians have been killed, beaten and harrassed, you tell them to be "conciliatory" and don´t "essentialize". If you were in their skin you would be afraid of ANY uyghur too. Not that the government is rounding all of them and sending them to concentration camps, for gods sake.
And yeah well, I may be medieval, but that´s how many, if not most Chinese (and Asian) think too. China didn´t criticize Japanese settlers because they "violated human rights" or "international law", they hated them because they were in their land. With no historical or self-defense claim whatsoever.
Don´t worry though, I don´t study in any western university classroom.
Now can we please stop the liberal theology (which I´ve been exposed to, don´t worry) and think some actual practical things? What kind of "conciliatory measure" can be taken here? How is China supposed to react to a race riot against the majority population? And what´s the paradigm in China´s north all about? Last time I saw Xinjiang wasn´t 華北。
M-Bone
July 9, 2009
8:44 am
Really? Isn't all of that wonderful Chinese philosophy based around mutal responsibilities between the ruler and ruled? Didn't Mencius place the blame for uprisings and riots in provinces on poor rulers pursuing parochial and selfish polities, not on he people there? The "kill em" type is the proverbial "bad ruler" in the Chinese tradition. The Chinese government keeps switching the paradigm from which it interprets history, but going back to the basics of what (in an ideal philosophical sense) it meant to be an educated Chinese for 2000 years couldn't hurt. Instead, the CCP seems only intersted in the "STFU and do what you're told" parts of the Chinese tradition. It's not only the Uighur who are victims of cultural genocide.
Roy also makes a great point - The "now it's CHINA'S turn" attitude assumes that China can go it alone. China is an important actor on the global stage, but if issues like human rights and pollution - issues that have an impact on us all - are looked at purely from a Sino-centric POV, don't be surprised if other powers start thinking that shunning China is in their best interests. That's exactly what the Chinese government should be working to avoid.
You know Spandrell, I actually agree with you to a point - I don't support idenpendence for the region. I think that some account has to be taken for current geopolitical realities and it is not like the Han can just be "sent home". But why not favor conciliation over more killing? It is entirely within the interests of the Chinese state to continue to maintain its rule over the Uighur regions - so why not make a few economic, political, and cultural changes to current polities to win over moderates? That way, we funny Western liberals won't have any sympathy for violent holdouts.
spandrell
July 9, 2009
8:46 am
But still I don´t think its useful to compare Chinese rule in Xinjiang with Japanese colonialism. China is not killing the Uyghurs, just ignoring them.
Aceface, I understand the fear, could talk about it but that would change the topic. I do think China will get better with time though, most educated young people are pretty liberal, they just have a chip in the shoulder against western meddling. Plenty of loud militarist guys in the Japanese internet too anyway.
Aceface
July 9, 2009
8:53 am
LDP has mandate by popular election.Big difference.
And just visiting Shanghai,the buildings I thought pretty were built by foreigners or Chinese in the past.Modern Chinese don't exactly have great tastes in architecture.
"ever thought Japanese can be a bit... biased when talking about China? "
Yeah,There's a bit panda hugging element in them,don't they?Japan can be more sympathetic to Dalai Lama and Uyghurs.
"having garrisons for 25+ years doesn´t mean the same than having them for thousands. Tough look, you don´t win. "
Turkestan's garrisons two thousand years old is highly doubtful,especially it's not continuous.Most of the Han settlers went there in this half century.And
"China "had garrisons in Korea,Mongolia and Vietnam too.Allowing your logic would autimaically extends Chinese boundary beyond it's current borders.
Anyway,this argument of length of time of "boots on the ground" only shows it takes Chinese 40times more to understand why imperialism is bad compare to other colonial powers.
"China didn´t criticize Japanese settlers because they "violated human rights" or "international law", "
Actually they did.Pick up any history book of the time.
spandrell
July 9, 2009
8:54 am
Last time I checked the actual government is not Confucian though, so hard to see why they are obliged to follow Mencius.
Anyway, we talked too much, thanks for making a brief point.
I guess you mean that Uyghurs have a righteous anger at being shunned of good jobs and being left out of the economy. I certainly don´t know the situation on the ground, but the government IS trying to win them out. The whole thing happened because the government sent Uyghurs to work in Guangdong! Just like every other chinese, to make them a normal part of the workforce. Then the raping stuff happens, the Hans get pissed as the government covering it, and the Uyghurs in Urumqi have no better idea than to riot!
How are you supposed to react to that? Send them home just like that?
I just don´t think Uyghurs will EVER recognize the legitimacy of the chinese, they are muslims, they can´t follow infidels by god´s command. It´s how it works.
You may think that it can be done, I don´t think so. Let´s leave it at that.
M-Bone
July 9, 2009
9:04 am
Neither of them mean anything under current international law. In that way, they are the same.
"What´s with all the 中華 thing?"
It is usually called Middle Kingdom / tributary state philosophy or world view in English. I don't think that there is anything controversial about suggesting that this has been a major feature of Chinese political thought. All of your arguments about Chinese political legitimacy in conquered areas is based in this philosophy.
"Not all Uyghurs have been targeted though."
Random targeting is what Jing advocated and you gave thumbs up too, however. See why I'm annoyed? Did you really mean that you think that the Han should arm up and defend themseleves? That I would have sympathy for, but that's not what Jing suggested at all.
"you tell them to be "conciliatory" and don´t "essentialize"."
They have tens of thousands of troops and the whole police establishment to protect them. And yes, I will tell them to be conciliatory and to not essentialze - they should protect themselves, but random killings by LYNCH MOBS? "Revenge" against people who may be innocent? Give me a break! You can tell me that I'd be scared, but I can tell you that I wouldn't be taking to the streets for random acts of race-based murder.
"And yeah well, I may be medieval, but that´s how many, if not most Chinese (and Asian) think too."
No, that's just silly. China has problems, but it also has a widespread and very modern concept of the rule of law. China argues that the Nanking Massacre was a horrific war crime based entirely in postwar concepts of human rights and international law. You can't have it both ways, so join us (and most people in Asia) in the 21st century already!
"What kind of "conciliatory measure" can be taken here? How is China supposed to react to a race riot against the majority population?"
How about by punishing offenders by law, not by extra legal violence? This seems to be what China is doing, actually. How about cracking down on the extra legal violence? How about admitting that there is a need for a new way of doing things - more Uighur jobs (can be done rather easily), more attention paid to Uighur cultural concerns (that Chinese government feels that they have to attack minority cultures and langauges is a sign of weakness, they should not think that diversity devalues the state), and dialogue with Uighur leaders who are not hand picked by the Han? Everything that I wrote is - A - not that hard to do, and B - way better than lynch mobs.
"And what´s the paradigm in China´s north "
Sorry about not being specific, but it IS north of the Chinese heartland, right?
M-Bone
July 9, 2009
9:12 am
"Last time I checked the actual government is not Confucian though, so hard to see why they are obliged to follow Mencius."
They shouldn't feel obligated. But people who argue that WESTERN culture is like so and CHINESE culture is like so for political reasons would do well to actually think about what Chinese culture is. There is plenty in the Chinese tradition that could support current international views of human rights and non-pollution. The problem is other parts of the tradition are being cherry-picked to support questionable political directions and sold as 5000 years of history.
Aceface
July 9, 2009
9:13 am
What's wrong about that? Sun Yat-sen took money from Japanese.why shouldn't Dalai Lama get donation from western supporters.At least Dalai Lama never got a penny from western government.Unlike Pol Pot who gets loads of cash from Beijing.
"I just don´t think Uyghurs will EVER recognize the legitimacy of the chinese, they are muslims, they can´t follow infidels by god´s command. It´s how it works. "
I think Uyghur hates Han Chinese because they were in their land. With only bogus historical or self-defense claim whatsoever.Their religion has nothing to do with this.
Roy Berman
July 9, 2009
9:19 am
Yeah, it's not like the Lebanese were content to be occupied by Syria because they were fellow Muslims. I think the religious aspect is really only relevant here insofar as it is a major identifying factor in establishing the definition of Uyghur identity, which let's not forget goes back way farther than their conversion to Islam.
Aceface
July 9, 2009
10:30 am
They are all seeking independence and freedom from Beijing's rule and religion has nothing to do with their political stance.
Jing
July 9, 2009
12:08 pm
However, to quickly address M-bone, I'm not advocating genocide. If I were, I'd be man enough to do it and explicitly state I want the Uighurs turned into soylent green. All I said was that that better alternative to craven surrender in the face of murderous rioters and disingenuous exiles to achieving peace is to shoot a couple hundred of the Uighur rioters to set an example.
Also I don't see why people keep bringing up Manchuko as a comparison to Xinjiang. Doesn't anyone remember that Japan never actually even laid claim to it. There was a reason they dug up Puyi to head up the government.
M-Bone
July 9, 2009
1:06 pm
"Like lining up a couple hundred Uighurs in front of a firing squad"
Did this mean, "Execute the Uighurs who murdered innocent civilians"? Saying "round up a bunch of people from (group) and kill them" is advocating genocide by the definitions that I cited (once again, killing 10 people can be genocidal if you kill them because of a group marker like religion or culture). If you didn't mean this, you have to be careful to make yourself more clear as "Like lining up a couple hundred Uighurs in front of a firing squad" sure doesn't sound very selective or a like logical policy option.
"After enough lynchings, I figure the Uighurs will get the message."
Once again, if you don't mean it, don't write it.
Note that I don't think that you really mean this and I'm not worried that you would participate in such an act, but it is disturbing, however, how you would break an argument like that out because you think that you can score some points in a blog comments thread.
As I mentioned to Spandrell, I'm one of the people who does not see independence as a real option. Way to totally alienate people who may have found your fundamental point about the way that China should be exercising state power convincing. I'm generally in the "give them a break on global warming" and "let's not let different ideas of human rights breakdown bilateral relationships" camp, but each time that I see comments like the ones that you made, the way that the Chinese press is spinning the riots, etc. I get a bit closer to the "screw China" camp.
spandrell
July 9, 2009
3:40 pm
Aceface:
"LDP has mandate by popular election"
"Dalai Lama hasn´t got a penny from western governments"
Yeeeeeeah right
Roy Berman
July 9, 2009
3:47 pm
M-Bone
July 9, 2009
11:32 pm
Need convincing that Japan is a democracy? Look back at every postwar election and ask yourself honestly - could I have voted for the major opposition party without hesitation?
I'm very close to the Shamin and Kyosanto on a lot of issues, but would I have trusted them to govern at a time that GDP growth was over 8% and the party meetings of those two consisted of foaming at the mouth arguments about how Althusser revises the dialectic?
Aceface
July 10, 2009
1:56 am
Well,Perhaps LDP may lose popular mandate by the autumn for the second time in the post war history.But still doesn't change the fact that they've got power through ballot box for the past 50 years.
So,you have any knowledge thr DL got funded by any foreign government,Spendrell?
Surprise.For I've been thinking there's no government in the world with enough guts to do this at the face of China.Personally I think Japan should give humanitarian support to the refugees in Dharamsala.
While I don't share any of your Islamophobia.I must inform you that none of post CIS central asian nations are Islamic state.
Threat of the Islamic fundamentalism is the reason why all of these states had joined Shanghai Cooperation Organization.Whether you'd like to admit it or not,Uyghurs(and Tibetans) are standing up for the same reasons that Chinese and Koreans stood up against Japanese in the 20's and 30's,not the same reasons Osama Bin Laden knock down the world trade center.You can tell that to your chinese pals,because they probably won't listen to what I say.
Aceface
July 10, 2009
2:17 am
No offense,Jing.But this all reminds me of a guy named 朱建栄.A Chinese scholar formally worked(and still does part time)for Shanghai Institute of International Affairs and professor of Toyo Gakuen Univ in Tokyo who is considered as the official mouth piece of Chinese diplomatic authority in Japan.
Anyway,this guy has been widely regarded as "liberal" and "cosmopolitan" and "understands Japan" by all around media circle.But one time he slipped his mouth in 1996 during Taiwanese Presidential Election Campaign on "Bettter alternative to set example",which was shooting missiles randomly at Taiwanese soil.He said(and wrote,If my fading memory is correct on now dufunct 世界週報)that ""missiles with conventional warheads won't make that many casualities,but would give Taiwanese enough lessons."
My idea is there's strong tendencies among Chinese that legitimize use of force to defend the unity of nation that they state.Either they are "murderous rioters and disingenuous exiles" or plain democratic electoral candidate or even Novel Peace award laureate.
M-Bone
July 10, 2009
4:28 am
M-Bone
July 10, 2009
11:36 am
Aceface
July 11, 2009
6:27 am
http://www.asahi.com/international/update/0711/TKY200907110110.html
And even the right wing Sankei is presenting interview of Chinese researcher on Xinjiang that more or less parpahrase government view.(He rejects religious factor,yet blame exiled Uyghur's involvement)
http://www.asahi.com/international/update/0711/TKY200907110110.html
I guess SPANDRELL 's comment on J-media reporting as
"Guess you saw all the Uighurs in Japan saying that the "peaceful demonstrations" of "youngsters believing in the government, holding Chinese flags" were just massacred by sadistic chinese police. Give me a break." is completly out of touch with reality.
Roy Berman
July 11, 2009
9:27 am
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/11/world/asia/11xinjiang.html?hp=&pagewanted=all
spandrell
July 11, 2009
2:09 pm
朝日新聞が中国に甘いのは今の話じゃありませんし。
By the way, Sun-bin has the best wrap up of the whole incident. A pity he doesn´t comment here anymore.
Aceface
July 11, 2009
11:50 pm
Sun-binの意見は君らと同工異曲だね。ウイグル人やチベット人を生かすも殺すもオレたち次第だから、外国人はすっこんでろ、みたいな論点で。僕は全然評価しないけど。あれが中国人の意見のBESTなら中国で少数民族の暴動が絶えない理由も判るよ。
Aceface
July 12, 2009
12:00 am
それだけ日本語が分かるってことは相当にキミも人が悪いな。日本の言論状況や基本的に親中的なメディアの報道があること知ってながら、「日本人が満州のこと持ち出すなんて、笑わせる」とか日本のメディアがウイグル亡命組織の情報を鵜呑みにした報道してる、とか、自民党は民意で選ばれことに対して鼻で笑ったりするワケ?どういう基準を持つとそういう風に事実関係をデタラメに歪曲できるのかね。
spandrell
July 12, 2009
7:30 am
僕人悪いって言われる筋合いないんですけど、日本のメディアは基本的に親中だと?親中でも何でもないじゃないんですか。中国を批判すると中国政府が文句言うからとりあえず悪口言わんとこうって言う話だけじゃないですか?一環してウイグル人の観点を報道してるわけでもないが、全体的に批判能力がなくて、誰の観点もそのまま出しているんじゃないですか?日本のメディアは自分の論点なんて持っているんですか?価値判断しないのは日本のメディアの特徴だと思うんですけどね。つまんないけどアメリカみたいな喧嘩社会を避けて、日本人らしく和をとっていていいんじゃないですか。
そもそも日本には欧米の民意みたいなものなんて存在しないと言っていますよ僕は。Civil Societyらしいものは何もない。自民党も何かのイデオロギーを持っているわけじゃないし。
というと違う話になるからそのままにしておきましょう。
Aceface
July 12, 2009
9:30 am
それはラサの暴動のときに奴さんはご丁寧に英語で書いてくれたからよく理解できたよ。
しゃべっていることは、戦前の関東軍と変わらないね。「暴支應懲」ってヤツさ。
中国人が自国の言論の自由が確立していない自国のメディアからを鵜呑みにして考える「寛容的な政策」と実際に寛容な政策とはまるで違う。そもそも中国の憲法を字義通りに読めば、新疆もチベットも自治区のはずなんだ。そうなっていないところが問題なのに、君もSun-binもそこは意図的に無視している。Sun-binがどういう素性の人間かは正直しらない。ある意味、かわいそうなヤツだとはおもうけどね。でも君は違う。日本に住んでいて中国人でもないんだろ?無責任だよね。
”いろんな衝突が起きると。暴れたら殺そうぜなんて言ってませんよ。 ”
ああ、そっちは君とJingの意見だったね。
”日本のメディアは基本的に親中だと?親中でも何でもないじゃないんですか。中国を批判すると中国政府が文句言うからとりあえず悪口言わんとこうって言う話だけじゃないですか?”
それだけではないし、いずれにしても、それも一種の親中じゃないの?少なくとも今回の件で、あの国のやってる事みて悪口いわないなんてさ。
”日本のメディアは自分の論点なんて持っているんですか?”
たとえば産経と朝日じゃ伝える内容もだいぶ違うね。いずれにしても読めば一目瞭然だとおもうけど。
”価値判断しないのは日本のメディアの特徴だと思うんですけどね。つまんないけどアメリカみたいな喧嘩社会を避けて、日本人らしく和をとっていていいんじゃないですか。 ”
客観中立性を重んじる傾向があるとは思うけど、それは署名記事ではなく、実質的に複数の人間が記事を書いているから。価値判断をしないわけではない。いずれにしても、今回の件に関しては、すべてのメディアが多かれ少なかれ中国の人権侵害を批判している。
”そもそも日本には欧米の民意みたいなものなんて存在しないと言っていますよ僕は。Civil Societyらしいものは何もない。自民党も何かのイデオロギーを持っているわけじゃないし”
それは君の意見だろ?「欧米の民意みたいなもの」が具体的になにかを指してるかは、しらないけど、現実に民意があるから世論調査や選挙の結果は毎回違うわけだろ。オレだって自分の意見をこうして開陳してるわけだしさ。
自民党のイデオロギーに関していうと、反共というイデオロギーは明確にもっていたよ。
Civil Societyはもちろんあるよ。日本じゃ市民がデモを起こしても武力で陳あるされることはないし、そもそもそこまで危機が表面化する前に、そうした問題点は解決されるか、少なくとも不平不満は自由に表明できる。実際君も今そうしているわけだろ?何のリスクもなく、しかも、それを聞く相手が、侮辱と受け止めずに冷静に受け止めてもらえることを当然視しながらね。
こうしたことが市民社会の産物じゃなくて、なんなのかね。
少なくとも市民社会や人権やマスメディアの自由に関して、日本は中国とは月とスッポンだね。もちろん日本が月で中国がスッポンだ。
”僕人悪いって言われる筋合いないんですけど”
いや、おおいにあるね。
M-Boneだって君にガキ扱いされるいわれはないし、オレだって君に”Yeaah Right”なんて鼻であしらわれるようなことを言われる筋合いもないね。
いずれにしても少数民族への弾圧に対して、thumbs up for the lynching thing.なんて意見を持ってるような野郎は「人が悪い」程度でラッキーと思うべきだ。
Aceface
July 12, 2009
9:32 am
○言論の自由が確立されていない自国のメディアを鵜呑みにして考える
M-Bone
July 12, 2009
10:09 am
Protest movement over school textbooks results in
New History textbook - .4%
Other history textbooks - 99.6%
Score 1
Early 1970s enviornmental movement results in Japan becoming an international leader on emissions.
Score 2
Something like 10% of the population of Okinawa turns out in mass protests after the rape of a 12 year old girl by 3 US servicemen.
Score 3
Those are just a few of my favorites.
On of the reasons why Japan has a low-key, but often effective, civil society is that they have to worry about graft and stuff, not living in a brutal authoritarian craphole. When there was a politician trying to push Japan in that direction in the late 1950s, there were significant protests against the expansion of police powers and Kishi's thug government. It's not like Japan doesn't have problems, but the absence of civil society ain't one of 'em. In any case, one of the reasons why we hear little about Japanese protests is that they quite seldom end in police busting heads.
spandrell
July 12, 2009
10:52 am
Aceface日本人と接しているとだいたい丁寧にやっていこうという気持ちだが、そちらは2ちゃん式で中傷的ならこっちも手加減しないでおく。野郎って言われてる時点で敬語なんて使わなくていいよな。Sun-binは可哀想なやつだとか本当に何様なんだ?そっちの意見に対して異議があんならそのまま言えばいいじゃんか、中傷なんて小学生でもできる。
そもそもSun-binは香港に住んでいて、香港では日本を遥かに越える自由なメディアが存在し、中国政府の悪口をしている報道は山ほどある場所だから、情報が伝わらないわけではない。そもそも中国の悪いところがほとんど香港のメディアを通じて発覚している。
俺は日本に住んでいるからって日本の見方をする義務はないぞ。別にこの国は嫌いじゃないし、いい場所だとは思うけど、かといってすべて正しいわけじゃないよ。日本は実質上民主国家じゃないというのは批判ではないし。お前らが作った政治体制だから好きにやればいい。うまく行ってるし。
今の中国と関東軍がたいして変わらないというのは、満鉄の工場に最低限15%の現地人雇用の法律があったかな?ラサで731部隊みたいなのが設置されていたら認めるよ。地違うと思うがな。
日本のメディアに関しては、客観的でありながら、軽い民主主義がいいっていう姿勢をとるが、あまりつよく主張しないっていう姿勢はすべて一緒じゃないの?中国の悪口言わないのは親中なら、中東諸国の悪口だって言わないから親イスラムとみなしていい?それだったら日本のメディアは嫌っているのは北朝鮮しかないじゃないか。みんな仲良し、平和国家日本ていうのは唯一のイデオロギーだろ?
新聞はまあだいぶ違うのはわかるが、毎日読んでいるわけじゃないから、主にテレビのかるーい、小学生向け的な報道の話をしていたんだ。
「それを聞く相手が、侮辱と受け止めずに冷静に受け止めてもらえる」
侮辱と受け止めてるじゃないかそっちは。別にM-boneにはガキ扱いしてないし、そっちに鼻で笑ったってどうしたよ。傷ついたんかい。日本でデモは武力で鎮圧されないのは本当だが、デモないじゃんか。この前日教組がどっかのデモが表参道にあって、一斜線しか使えなかったんだね。日本は言論の自由をもうちょっと頭いい手段で統制しているだけなんじゃないの?
自民党は日本国民の意思を代表しているととても思えないんだよ。しかも自民党がどれだけ政策を実際決めてるかっていうところも怪しいしね。反共っていうのはイデオロギーだと。それだけ?共産党と違ってたら何でもいいと。ものすごい深い思想なんだね。自民党はイデオロギーの違う派閥の共同体だっていうのは自民党内でも認めてるんだし、既得権益者はそれを守るために作られた政党。日本の戦後の経済運営がよかったのは自民党のおかげか?
で俺は中国の方がいい国だとか、自由だとか毛頭言ってないからね。比較したがるのは日本人だけ。毎回中国行くとネット規制で腹立つよ俺も。かといって今すぐ日本みたいな言論の自由の保障をしろって言うのはアホじゃないの?そんな簡単な話じゃないんで。
原則として少数民族の弾圧に賛成する人は野郎になるという話と日本が言うと。本当に笑える。
tomojiro
July 12, 2009
10:54 am
I am interested about your opinion after reading this letter from a traveler in Kashgar.
http://www.thenewdominion.net/1007/a-letter-from-kashgar/
Or about the opinion of this Chinese bloger about Han-Uighur relationship (in Chinese)
http://www.bullogger.com/blogs/uighur/archives/303918.aspx
After reading this, do you still insist about "thumbs up for the lynching thing"?
Aceface
July 12, 2009
11:49 am
筋道たてて論破されれば逆ギレか。別に手加減なんてしないで全力でこいよ。
”Sun-binは可哀想なやつだとか本当に何様なんだ?の意見に対して異議があんならそのまま言えばいいじゃんか、中傷なんて小学生でもできる”
彼の前にコメントを別件で書いたことがある。全然違う方向に勝手に話を持ってかれたので、議論は無理とこちらで判断した。ちなみに「かわいそう」というのは中傷じゃなくて、同情さ。
それからオレが何様だって別に君には関係ないだろ?何様ならそっちもご同様だ。もっともウイグル人やイスラム教徒に対する意見を読む限り、頭の悪いファシストか人種差別主義者のどちらかみたいだけどな。
”香港では日本を遥かに越える自由なメディアが存在し、中国政府の悪口をしている報道は山ほどある場所だから、情報が伝わらないわけではない。”
遥かにだって?ご冗談を。香港メディアのガセは四六時中だよ。日本にだって、半ば亡命してるみたいな人が秋田の国際強要大学に一人いるぜ。Willy Wo-Lap Lam、South China Morning Post でグぐって見たら?
”俺は日本に住んでいるからって日本の見方をする義務はないぞ。別にこの国は嫌いじゃないし、いい場所だとは思うけど、かといってすべて正しいわけじゃないよ。”
もちろんそうだ。でも今の話題は中国のウイグル問題。そして中国は間違ってるね。そして君はそれを認めない。
”日本は実質上民主国家じゃないというのは批判ではないし。”
そうだね。「批判」じゃない。単なる「誤解」だ。
”今の中国と関東軍がたいして変わらないというのは、満鉄の工場に最低限15%の現地人雇用の法律があったかな?ラサで731部隊みたいなのが設置されていたら認めるよ。”
満州=新疆論に関してはM-Boneがすでに説明したからはぶくが。中国の今に多少の進歩があるのは当然だろう。関東軍の満州は20世紀初頭のハナシ。今は21世紀だ。もっとも満州には核実験場はなかったから、被爆者はいなかったけどね。
”新聞はまあだいぶ違うのはわかるが、毎日読んでいるわけじゃないから、主にテレビのかるーい、小学生向け的な報道の話をしていたんだ。”
それ君が日本のメディアを判断する唯一の基準なわけ?単に読んでもいないくせに議論に参加しようとしてるだけじゃん。日本人の美徳の一つは自分が知らない、あるいは意見を特にもっていないことは、素直に知らない、意見がない、と認めることだよね。「生兵法は怪我の元」とい言葉を君に贈っておこう。
”侮辱と受け止めてるじゃないかそっちは。M-boneにはガキ扱いしてないし、そっちに鼻で笑ったってどうしたよ。傷ついたんかい。”
別に。ヒマつぶしの相手ができて喜んでるよ。実際返事書いて手楽しいし、君日本語達者だから助かるしさ。それに痛いところつかれてドギマギしてるのは、君でしょ。
ちなみに君がM-BONEについて書いてたことは
SPANDRELLJULY 9, 2009 4:21 AM
”M-bone, I haven't heard an argument like that since primary school.”
And then
SPANDRELL JULY 9, 2009 7:30 AM
”Now we're in high school, you threaten to lock me up under "international law"!
Well,Spand.You're grown man now,Have more control and responsibility in your own words!
"日本でデモは武力で鎮圧されないのは本当だが、デモないじゃんか。"
別にデモしなくても意義申し立てができるし、ましてや要求が通るとあっては、集まるだけムダだよね。
"この前日教組がどっかのデモが表参道にあって、一斜線しか使えなかったんだね。日本は言論の自由をもうちょっと頭いい手段で統制しているだけなんじゃないの? "
あたりまえだ。デモ申請をして交通渋滞を起こすことが出来れば、嫌がらせの手段として乱用されるのは目に見えている。政治的意義申し立ての権利と法の支配の両立は自由な市民社会の基本中の基本だろ?
まずデモは「集会の自由」であって、「言論の自由」とは異なる。それにこれのドコが「統制」なわけ?統制とは、デモの集会の規模や時間や取り上げる要求に法的規制を設けるならば、あてはまる。これは単純にデモ隊の道路利用と他の利用者の利便を考えた「調整」でしょ。
”自民党は日本国民の意思を代表しているととても思えないんだよ。”
まあ、オレもある程度は同意するけど、議院民主制は選挙結果がすべてだからね。
”しかも自民党がどれだけ政策を実際決めてるかっていうところも怪しいしね。”
自民党が組閣した内閣の責任において政策を施行すれば、それは自民党が決定した政策だよ。実際に立案したのが、官僚か、審議会の議院か、あるいはシンクタンクの研究員なんてことは関係ない。
”反共っていうのはイデオロギーだと。それだけ?”
すくなくとも一つはあるってこと。”ひとつある”、ということと”ない”ということは異なる。小学生の算数のハナシ。
”自民党はイデオロギーの違う派閥の共同体だっていうのは自民党内でも認めてるんだし、”
おいおい、”自民党も何かのイデオロギーを持っているわけじゃないし。”っていったの君だぜ?それに自民党が派閥ごとに違うイデオロギーもってるなんて初めて聞いたよ。麻生太郎と
河野洋平は同じ派閥だぜ?
”既得権益者はそれを守るために作られた政党。”
それを”保守政党”って呼ぶんだ。付け加えると自民党は保守政党。
”で俺は中国の方がいい国だとか、自由だとか毛頭言ってないからね。比較したがるのは日本人だけ”
ああ、たしか、君は「ウイグル人へのリンチに賛成!!」っていってたんだよな。悪かった。
でも、君だって日本引き合いにだして比較してるぜ。それにM-Boneはカナダ人だ。
”毎回中国行くとネット規制で腹立つよ俺も。”
まったくだ。You Tubeが中国で時たま繋がらなくなったばかりに、自分が見たい時にシンプソンズが見れなくなるのは本当に悲劇だよな。それにくらべればウイグル人が数百人撃ち殺されるなんて大騒ぎすることじゃないよな。
”かといって今すぐ日本みたいな言論の自由の保障をしろって言うのはアホじゃないの?そんな簡単な話じゃないんで。 ”
誰もそんなことはいっていない。でも中国国内に住んでない中国人ブロガーまで、中国政府と同じスタンスを取るのは変だよね。特に君みたいに言論の自由を保障された日本にいるヤツはさ。
”原則として少数民族の弾圧に賛成する人は野郎になるという話と日本が言うと。本当に笑える。”
目が笑ってないぜ、ぼうや。でも大抵の日本人は少数民族の弾圧には反対で、なんらかの制度的保護に賛成している。
これも読んでみな。きっともっと笑えるから。
http://blog.goo.ne.jp/ivelove
M-Bone
July 12, 2009
12:50 pm
Those examples that I mentioned also involved the very demonstrations (and meetings, seminars, phone pressure, letter-writing campaigns, etc.) that you are telling Aceface don't happen. Japan also has so many demonstrations on the local level that it is hard to keep up - look into Burakumin, disabled rights, or the recent haken movements (hakenmura, etc.)
Anyway, if there is some public issue in Japan that you think is not being discussed, I'll be happy to recommend books so that you can read up on it. For anything really important, I'm sure it will be a long list.
In addition, does Nikkyoso really need to street protest? Didn't a cabinet minister get shitcanned about 8 months back just for breathing a criticism of them and indulging in a bit of the national mythology that the group hates?
spandrell
July 12, 2009
2:02 pm
M-bone, of course things are being discussed, and if they shout loud enough they do get some solution. But there's no "total" discussion about things. People may complain about some isolated case of polution, but nobody complains about the whole countryside being a pool of concrete, about the Nokyo system, about how kids have to study 12 hours a day to pass an exam, etc. The big things aren't subject of discussion. So the terms of political discourse are much more reduced than in the West. Sure you've noticed.
And God forbid I defend the Nikkyoso, commies they are. But it was pretty humiliating having them run besides running cars on a main street.
Aceface: 日本語であまり論争したことないから雰囲気があまり掴めないけど、こんな感じで上から目線で馬鹿にしながらやるんなら、乗ってやるよ。こんな下品感じになるから日本人が政治をあまりしゃべらないんだろうね。
”「かわいそう」というのは中傷じゃなくて、同情さ”
Sun-binさんはそっちの同情も何も必要ないんだ。自分と意見が違う人に対してこんな非人間扱いするのは自由だが、それで俺が頭の悪いファシストになるのは面白いな。イスラムが嫌いなら俺は人種差別主義者で話にならんと。いやあ、在日のイラン人を100倍増やしてくださいよそんなイスラム好きなら。すぐ気づく。
Willy Wo Lapさんは江沢民の怒りを買ったんだね。まあ、それはその新聞は首にしないと北京の駐在員を追い出されるとかそういうこっとだったんだろうね。それは会社の判断でやったんだろう。政府としてプレッシャーをかけるのは普通だし。香港に1年間住んでたらもちろんそういう理由でテレビでは露骨な悪口は言わないが、林檎日報っていう中国の悪口しか言わない新聞もあり、中国に対して迎合したくないならいくらでも言える。中国政府閣僚の愛人の写真集とかすごいもの売ってるからね。自由極まりない。
”でも今の話題は中国のウイグル問題。そして中国は間違ってるね。”
そっちのいう正しい解決は中国人がこぞって新疆から撤退し、領土をウイグル人に渡すこと。それなら中国はおそらく永遠に間違い続けていくだろう。
”被爆者はいなかったけどね。 ”
まあ生きていながら解剖された人いるけどね。
新疆にはウイグルは60年代から半分以下の人口だから、おそらく被爆者は漢族も入ってるし、地理的な考慮でそこを選んだんだろうが。日本は戦争中核兵器を解決できたなら普通に重慶市内に落としたんだろうな。
”単に読んでもいないくせに議論に参加しようとしてるだけじゃ”
毎日読んでいないというのはまったく読んでいないわけじゃない。俺は日本のメディアは全部ウイグルの見方をしていてだめだとか言ってないし。テレビでああいう報道もあったといっただけ。日本のメディア全体に対して価値判断を出したわけじゃないし。国際報道に対してレベル悪くないと思うよ実際。自分は記者だっけ?まあそんな反応しなくていいよ。
”あたりまえだ。デモ申請をして交通渋滞を起こすことが出来れば、嫌がらせの手段として乱用されるのは目に見えている。”
ああヨーロッパ行ってそう言ってくれ。本当にめんどくさいよ月一回でああいうの。面白いことにそういう論理でデモを抑制しているのは日本だけなんだね。韓国だってある。日本だけは運転者の気持ちを考えている。すばらしい。
”自民党が組閣した内閣の責任において政策を施行すれば、それは自民党が決定した政策だよ”
いやそういう形の話じゃなくて。どっちみち形は欧米からパクってるんだし、実際国のあり方は誰が決めているんだ?そこの方が重要だろう、法律的責任じゃなくて。大臣が座ってるだけなのに官僚の失敗の責任とってやめてもしょうがないだろう。
”
すくなくとも一つはあるってこと。”ひとつある”、ということと”ない”ということは異なる。小学生の算数のハナシ。 ”
小学生で全体と部分の区別を教わらないか?反共はあるアイディアであって網羅的なイデオロギーじゃないだろうどう考えても。共産主義は共産主義であって反資本主義じゃないんだ。
”麻生太郎と
河野洋平は同じ派閥だぜ? ”
そこまで詳しくないな。同じ派閥でも意見違うならなおさら金を集めるための集団でしかない。納得。
”それを”保守政党”って呼ぶんだ。付け加えると自民党は保守政党。 ”
Edmund Burke泣くよ。世界中の保守党にはもっと崇高な思想があると思う。既得権益は左翼でも守ろうとする人多いし。そういう区別じゃないね。
ウイグル人は自分の町でもないウルムチで暴動を起こし、平民を殺し、店と車を焼き払い、今日は石油タンクまで爆発したっけ。
実際ウイグル人は優先待遇だからな?工場の従業員の15%という枠があって、重要ポストにもただで入れてもらって、センター試験で50点プラスされるからな?50点だぞ??そこそこ中国語をマスターすれば大学に行けるという優遇。そこで日常的にウルムチで問題を起こしていると。どうも。
”大抵の日本人は少数民族の弾圧には反対で”
日本人は自分の国に違う文化を持っている少数民族ないからそんな贅沢なこと言えるんだな。台湾人が問題起こしたときは日本軍がどう対応したんだよ。同じじゃないかよ。
spandrell
July 12, 2009
2:08 pm
Aceface
July 12, 2009
3:14 pm
まったくだ。彼は選んでそういう意見を発信してるわけだし、同情が必要なのはチベット人やウイグル人たちのほうだね。
”自分と意見が違う人に対してこんな非人間扱いするのは自由だが、それで俺が頭の悪いファシストになるのは面白いな。”
少数民族の問題解決にリンチを提唱するのは、頭もよくないし、ファシストじみてると誰が聞いても思うよ。
”いやあ、在日のイラン人を100倍増やしてくださいよそんなイスラム好きなら。すぐ気づく。”
議論のすりかえだね。それにそんなにイスラム教徒が嫌いなら、ウイグル人を中国から独立させりゃあいいのに。むこうだって別に中国人のことを愛しているわけでもないみたいだしさ。
”Willy Wo Lapさんは江沢民の怒りを買ったんだね。まあ、それはその新聞は首にしないと北京の駐在員を追い出されるとかそういうこっとだったんだろうね。それは会社の判断でやったんだろう。政府としてプレッシャーをかけるのは普通だし。”
正確にいうとラムは社主のロバート・クォックの怒りを買ったんだ。クオックは共産党と密接な関係が指摘される人物だ。蘋果日報はガセだらけ。しかも一時期社主のジミー・ライは主要広告主に広告を引き下げられたり、他の事業に税務査察が入ったりして、一時期会社の登記を台湾に移したことがるハズ。香港が「日本より遥かに自由」なんて笑わせる。
”そっちのいう正しい解決は中国人がこぞって新疆から撤退し、領土をウイグル人に渡すこと。”
それは一つの解決策。ほかにも可能性はあると思うけど、自らそれを摘み取ってる。
”それなら中国はおそらく永遠に間違い続けていくだろう。 ”
たぶんね。だから中国は民主化もしないし、言論の自由も人権も法治も確立しない。
”まあ生きていながら解剖された人いるけどね”
まあね。でもそうした人権侵害は日本では過去完了系だ。そしてそうした行為を肯定する人間にはそれ相応のペナルティーが待っている。新疆や内モンゴルの核実験施設周辺では被爆する人は今も増え続けている。中国政府による様々な人権侵害もまだ続いている。
”日本は戦争中核兵器を解決できたなら普通に重慶市内に落としたんだろうな。”
もちろん。でも重要なことは開発できず、したがって使われなかったことだ。やってもいない行為で言いがかりをつけられてもな。
”俺は日本のメディアは全部ウイグルの見方をしていてだめだとか言ってないし。テレビでああいう報道もあったといっただけ。日本のメディア全体に対して価値判断を出したわけじゃないし。国際報道に対してレベル悪くないと思うよ実際。自分は記者だっけ?まあそんな反応しなくていいよ。”
ホラ、また意見を変えた。すこし理詰めで反論されるとすぐ自説を変える。
”面白いことにそういう論理でデモを抑制しているのは日本だけなんだね。韓国だってある。日本だけは運転者の気持ちを考えている。すばらしい。 ”
韓国では今、首都でのデモ自体を禁止しようとしてるよ。ばかげてると思うけど。デモの目的の一つは広く社会に自分の立場をアピールすること、無関係の人を敵に回すのは逆効果と考えているのは、国鉄時代にストをすればするほど、国民の支持を失ったために民営化のときの首切りに同情されなかったという歴史的経験もある。
”どっちみち形は欧米からパクってるんだし、実際国のあり方は誰が決めているんだ?”
政府、世論、有権者、官僚、国会のバランスで決まるのは多元的な民主主義国家では当たり前。
”法律的責任じゃなくて。大臣が座ってるだけなのに官僚の失敗の責任とってやめてもしょうがないだろう。 ”
しかし、大臣がやめなければ、それこそ問題。自民党の支配が許容されたのは、一つの政権が短命で政治的に脆弱だから。大臣の首がすげ変わるのは、官僚が強いというだけでなく、野党やメディアや世論が政府に対して影響力をもっている証拠だろ。それすらもできなければ、それこそ日本には民主主義がないということになる。
”小学生で全体と部分の区別を教わらないか?反共はあるアイディアであって網羅的なイデオロギーじゃないだろうどう考えても。共産主義は共産主義であって反資本主義じゃないんだ”
意味不明。イデオロギーの意味を辞書で調べてくれ。それから共産主義は反資本主義だよ。共産党宣言に書いてあるじゃん。
”Edmund Burke泣くよ”
バークは泣いて喜ぶよ。「神の創った秩序は、あらゆる物事の基礎である」。フランス革命の時代に教会と王権神授説に逆戻りすることを主張したんだから。
”ウイグル人は自分の町でもないウルムチで暴動を起こし、平民を殺し、店と車を焼き払い、今日は石油タンクまで爆発したっけ。 ”
ウルムチは新疆ウイグル自治区の首府で、ウイグル族は自治区の主体民族。ウルムチはある意味、彼らの町。死者に関する事実関係はまだ不明だから、誰が誰を殺したかはわからない。石油タンクは暴動と無関係と当局が発表したと、中国には手厳しい産経は報道している。
”ウイグル人は優先待遇だからな?工場の従業員の15%という枠があって、重要ポストにもただで入れてもらって、センター試験で50点プラスされるからな?50点だぞ??そこそこ中国語をマスターすれば大学に行けるという優遇。そこで日常的にウルムチで問題を起こしていると。どうも。 ”
独立すれば、ウイグル人の工場従業員枠は15%以上に確実になるね。しかも中国語をマスターする必要もない。中国は新疆を植民地にすることで、本来ウイグル人をはじめとする心境の人々に還元されるべき豊かな天然資源を国際価格を遥かに下回る価格で手にいれ、代わりにセンター試験に多少の色をつけて、ウイグル人に恩を売った気になっている。優遇策でもなんでもないね。単なる同化策だよ。
”日本人は自分の国に違う文化を持っている少数民族ないからそんな贅沢なこと言えるんだな。台湾人が問題起こしたときは日本軍がどう対応したんだよ。同じじゃないかよ”
なんどもいうが少数民族が中国に迷惑をかけているわけではない。少数民族の中には独立を望むものもいて、それを無理に中国が引き止めるから、問題ができる。中国の少数民族の全てが分離独立を望んでいるわけではないからね。自分で捲いたトラブルの種だ。人の国を「贅沢」呼ばわりするのは筋違いだ。いつでも中国は漢族だけの国になれるんだから。
台湾人が蜂起したときは、日本人は容赦なく弾圧した。確かに同じだね。そもそもオレたちはそれを一度も否定していない。今の中国みればみるほど30年代の日本そっくりって何度もいってるだろ?さっきから石井部隊とか工場で15%働いてるか?とか(当時の満州では日本の工場には満人は15%どころか、過半数がそうだよ。アホらしい。)反対してるのは君だよな。
違う点は、64年前からもう日本は台湾人を弾圧していないということと、台湾の独立に武力行使の脅しをかけてまで反対しているのは中国ということだ。
”アイヌの話は数千人しか残ってなくて観光に使いたいだけじゃねえかよ。”
そらでた差別発言。「観光に使う」ってどういう意味だ。それに今議論されてるのは、生活保護のハナシだぜ。いずれにしても、アイヌ団体は日本国内で自由に活動できるし、権利も主張できるってとことが中国と違うところだよ。
”
Aceface
July 12, 2009
3:46 pm
"People may complain about some isolated case of polution, but nobody complains about the whole countryside being a pool of concrete"
Actually,I just came back from local NGO's meeting of conservation of rural landscapes.There's more than 14NPO's just doing this "pool of concrete" issue just in West Aichi.
"about the Nokyo system, about how kids have to study 12 hours a day to pass an exam, etc."
And I bet all these infos Spandrell gets comes from J-media coverage.Nokyo and 12 hours a day to study is one of the longest thriving social issues in Japan.These has been talked since I was a kid.There were many discussions,either "total" or "partial" however,there have been no complete solution which is a problem,but that doesn't mean efforts aren't paid.
"And God forbid I defend the Nikkyoso, commies they are. But it was pretty humiliating having them run besides running cars on a main street. "
If rightwingers and gay activists and St.Patrick day parade has to walk besides the running car on Omotesando streets,then why shouldn't Nikkyoso?
What are you proposing instead.red carpet?
spandrell
July 12, 2009
4:38 pm
And nothing's happened. There you have it.
Same with all the big issues. Nothing ever happens.
"少数民族の問題解決にリンチを提唱するのは、頭もよくないし"
問題解決にはならないが、暴動の頻度が必ず減る。新疆の漢族の人口比率が年々少しずつ減ってるからね、暴動の恐怖で。ウイグル人は暴動を起こしているのは効果があるからだ。
”それにそんなにイスラム教徒が嫌いなら、ウイグル人を中国から独立させりゃあいいのに”
独立したら、はい、もうひとつの中央アジアダメ国家誕生。おまけにイスラム主義。ちょうど今の世界に必要なものだ。中国の言いなりにならないならロシアのいいなりになるか、サウジアラビアかイランのいいなりに。
”蘋果日報はガセだらけ”
蘋果日報みたいな新聞は日本では生き残れるかなぁ。あれだけ自民党の悪口言ったらどうなるんだろうね。ありえない。
日本の新聞でさえ中国に対してあれだけ批判するものはない。
”言論の自由も人権も法治も確立しない。 ”
相当進歩しているよ近年。ネットで露骨な中国の批判が出てきているし、警察や裁判の態度も変わってきているし。ちょっとずつだよ。
でもチベット・新疆・台湾は別の話なんだよね。国防の話。台湾があるから今は中国は西側にアメリカ軍に囲まれていて、チベットで負けたらインドとめんどくさいことになるし、新疆とられたら資源なくなって困る。国家として当然の考慮。
ちなみに核兵器をどこで実験すれば満足する?新疆と内モンゴルにしか砂漠がないんだけどな。嫌がらせでやったみたいにいうなよ。
”大臣の首がすげ変わるのは、官僚が強いというだけでなく、野党やメディアや世論が政府に対して影響力をもっている証拠だろ”
いや、大臣が権力ないという証拠だな。やめても困ることがないからじゃないの?何か問題があってその問題の実際の責任者をつきとめて辞めさせるべきだろ。大臣も辞めるのも別に悪くないけど、そこでも問題解決になるかっていう話。
”それから共産主義は反資本主義だよ”
それだけじゃないだろ。どれだけ具体的な理想と政策が入っているよ。「資本主義に反対」で終わってんのか共産党宣言。資本主義反対のイデオロギーは山ほどあるし共産主義以外。ファシストでも資本主義の批判してただろうが。
”バークは泣いて喜ぶよ”
既得権益の保護だけ違うだろうおい。世界の秩序は神から授かったものなのでどうのこうの深い思想が入ってるだろう。今自分が儲かってるから何も変えないでおこうという話じゃない。かといってフランス革命で30年間ヨーロッパ全体戦争になったんだし。
別に俺はバーク主義者じゃないけど、優れた理論は作っていた。自民党と比較しないでくれ。
”本来ウイグル人をはじめとする心境の人々”
新疆独立したらウイグル以外の民族がどうなるっというのも面白いね。国連の支持にしたがってとても寛容でリベラルな政策を採るんだろうか。中央アジアみたいにおもいっきり差別するんだろうか。政府や学校に枠を作らなそうだな。
同化策をとらないでどうするんだ。言葉通じないようにしておけばいいのか。学校制度を統一しなければいいのか。
”少数民族の中には独立を望むものもいて、それを無理に中国が引き止めるから、問題ができる”
じゃあお願いだから、無理はない引き止め方を教えてください。建設的な話には非常に興味がある。俺は残忍でファシスト的で間違っているかもしれないが、そうじゃない、独立を伴わない手段があればぜひ聞きたい。
”いつでも中国は漢族だけの国になれるんだから。”
なれないね。どの省にも多少の少数民族がいる。回族が全国に散らばっているし、完全に同化しているのに漢族に入れていない満族とかも相当の数いる。
チベットとウイグル以外の民族が問題を起こしていないのは、数が少ないし、清の前からも中国に統治されていたから独立するのは想像もできないね。文化も言葉をほとんどなくして行ってるし。モンゴル族は暴れる候補なのにあまり問題を起こしていないのは前から興味あるけど、何か知っていたらぜひ教えてほしい。
”当時の満州では日本の工場には満人は15%どころか、過半数がそうだよ。アホらしい。”
アホか。満州には日本人が労働者やるわけないじゃないか。奴隷経済だったんだろう。そもそも日本人少ないし。だがウルムチや資源がある場所はウイグルの労働を使わないで漢族自分自身で全部やっているんだ。ウイグル人を雇うのは搾取するんじゃなくて貴重な仕事をあげているんだよ。
”台湾の独立に武力行使の脅しをかけてまで反対しているのは中国ということだ。”
台湾が独立してアメリカ軍の基地を作る。それで韓国・日本・台湾・フィリピンにアメリカ海軍がいると。中国の完全包囲。それは中国が納得するべき?韓国と日本から米軍を撤退させれば中国も丸くなるよ。
”「観光に使う」ってどういう意味だ”
出たよ見せ掛け憤慨。そもそもアイヌ人何人いるよ。北海道の過半数だったら権利あげるか?台湾でも今やってるんじゃないか原住民権利。で本土文化ツアーやって儲かってるし。笑わせるよ
Aceface
July 12, 2009
5:58 pm
Lots of things happens everyday.I suggest you to read papers a little bit carefully.
”(リンチは)問題解決にはならないが、暴動の頻度が必ず減る。 ”
じゃ、人種差別主義のファシストということは認めるわけだね。たぶんそのやりかたはウイグル族を過激化させるだけだとおもうけど。もっともそこまで追い込んだ上でテロリズム根絶の大義を掲げる気なんだろうね。
"独立したら、はい、もうひとつの中央アジアダメ国家誕生。おまけにイスラム主義。"
繰り返しで悪いが今の中央アジアにイスラム主義の国は一つもないよ。イスラム教徒が住んでいるということと、「イスラム主義」の違いぐらいは知ってるんだろうね。
世界には今「イスラム主義」と言える国は二つある。サウジアラビアとイランだ。問題がある国ではあるが、「ダメ国家」とはいえない。カネも影響力もあるしね。
どっちにしたって、別にそれは中国が心配することじゃないよ。
”中国の言いなりにならないならロシアのいいなりになるか、サウジアラビアかイランのいいなりに。 ”
中央アジアの国はどこの国のいいなりにもなっていない。キルギスやカザフスタンみたいに大国を競いあわせて、うまく外交してるよ。
”蘋果日報みたいな新聞は日本では生き残れるかなぁ。あれだけ自民党の悪口言ったらどうなるんだろうね。ありえない。 ”
ありえるさ。夕刊ゲンダイと夕刊フジって読んだことないの?そもそも自民党の悪口言ってないメディアって日本のどこにあるのさ?
”ちなみに核兵器をどこで実験すれば満足する?新疆と内モンゴルにしか砂漠がないんだけどな。嫌がらせでやったみたいにいうなよ。 ”
”いや、大臣が権力ないという証拠だな。やめても困ることがないからじゃないの?何か問題があってその問題の実際の責任者をつきとめて辞めさせるべきだろ。大臣も辞めるのも別に悪くないけど、そこでも問題解決になるかっていう話。 ”
ま、それには一理あるね。結局政権交代と憲法改正が必要だね。だけどそもそもキミが指摘してたのは、日本の民主主義の有無、っていうことで、問題解決の方法論じゃないでしょ。
モンゴル人やウイグル人にとっては”嫌がらせ”以上のものだね。大体核実験場に選定されるところは遊牧民しかすまない。漢族なんていないよ。中国の有人宇宙船を発射した酒泉の衛星センターはもともと核ミサイル基地。モンゴル語ではバヤンノールという場所だ。強制移動させられたのは一人残らずモンゴル人さ。
”相当進歩しているよ近年。ネットで露骨な中国の批判が出てきているし、警察や裁判の態度も変わってきているし。ちょっとずつだよ。”
おいおい、日本の民主主義や市民社会にはずいぶん厳しいのに、中国には妙に甘いね。ネットでちょっとづつなんて変わんないよ。ウイグル人殺せとか叫んでる奴もいるのが中国のネットだろ。どっちが優勢かなんて見りゃ一目瞭然だよ。キミの好きなSun-Binだって口を開けば、中国は変わったって主張するけど、一皮むけば、盲目的愛国主義の塊みたいにみえるね。
”それだけじゃないだろ。どれだけ具体的な理想と政策が入っているよ。「資本主義に反対」で終わってんのか共産党宣言。資本主義反対のイデオロギーは山ほどあるし共産主義以外。ファシストでも資本主義の批判してただろうが。”
あのなあ、イデオロギーって言葉調べてから反論してよ。
それからもちろん「共産党宣言」は「資本主義に反対」だけでは終わっていないし、資本主義反対のイデオロギーは環境主義からファシズムまで山ほどあるけど、きみは「共産主義は反資本主義じゃない」っていったでしょ。
”既得権益の保護だけ違うだろうおい。世界の秩序は神から授かったものなのでどうのこうの深い思想が入ってるだろう。”
フランス革命に対して、王権神授説を持ち出したのは、王と貴族と教会の既得権益の保護を革命からまもるため。だからまちがっていない。バークは思想家、自民党は政党。現実が理想に見劣りするのは政治の本質だ。
”今自分が儲かってるから何も変えないでおこうという話じゃない。”
”別に俺はバーク主義者じゃないけど、優れた理論は作っていた。自民党と比較しないでくれ。 ”
それは自民党より中国共産党の思想なんじゃないの?
少なくとも東アジアでもっとも自由で繁栄した社会が自民党の統治下で実現したという事実は残る。もちろんバークは自民党のことをしったら泣いて喜ぶさ。カール・マルクスは中国共産党のことを知ったら憤死するとおもうけど。
”新疆独立したらウイグル以外の民族がどうなるっというのも面白いね。国連の支持にしたがってとても寛容でリベラルな政策を採るんだろうか。中央アジアみたいにおもいっきり差別するんだろうか。政府や学校に枠を作らなそうだな。”
確かにそれは問題だ。ただ、ウイグル人以外の少数民族の多くはすでに独立国家をもっている。それこそモンゴル人やカザフ人やキルギス人はトルキスタン独立後も残るか、中国に移るか、あるいはモンゴルやカザフスタンやキルギスに移ることもできる。でもそれは今心配する必要はない。今人権を侵害しているのは存在してもいないウイグル国家ではなく、中国なんだから。
”同化策をとらないでどうするんだ。言葉通じないようにしておけばいいのか。学校制度を統一しなければいいのか。 ”
中国では一応少数民族別の学校教育制度が存在するので、もともと統一されていない。オレが最初のほうに書いたコメントは、多くの少数民族は自発的に北京官語を学んでいると書いた。同化策の立案段階にウイグル人の民意が反映されていないのが問題かもよ。
”じゃあお願いだから、無理はない引き止め方を教えてください。建設的な話には非常に興味がある。俺は残忍でファシスト的で間違っているかもしれないが、そうじゃない、独立を伴わない手段があればぜひ聞きたい。 ”
日本人よりも、それこそウイグル人やチベット人と話し合うべきこと。ただ独立という選択肢がなくなれば、ウイグル族は(どの少数民族もそうだが)北京との交渉のテコを失う。民族自決の原則にも反する。結局独立の旗を下げさせるには、各々の民族集団に自立させて、損得勘定を考えさせればいい。もし、キミのいうように破綻したイスラム国家になったら、確実に中国に再統合を望む民意もでてくるさ。しかし、それは今の段階では一歩も二歩も先走りすぎだね。今はとにかく、暴力を排除すること。ウイグル人に(というか中国ではどこもそうだが)異議申し立ての際に暴力を減らす努力を当局が始めることだ。
”アホか。満州には日本人が労働者やるわけないじゃないか。奴隷経済だったんだろう。そもそも日本人少ないし。”
満州の労働事情はまさしく奴隷状態そのものだが、経済的に見れば、日本からの持ち出しに終わった。結局日本はインフラ整備と軍隊の駐留のコストが満州から上げられる利益を上回った。その点が新疆と満州が似ているっていってるんだ。15%もウイグル人雇っているから、どうこうって言い始めたのはそっちでしょ。
”だがウルムチや資源がある場所はウイグルの労働を使わないで漢族自分自身で全部やっているんだ。ウイグル人を雇うのは搾取するんじゃなくて貴重な仕事をあげているんだよ。 ”
当たり前だ、新疆中に散らばっている生産大隊は左宗棠の屯田兵以来続く新疆支配の手段だ。中央政府の指令で新疆を占領してるんだから、ウイグル人を雇わないのはあたりまえだ。
日本人だって関東軍が占領して、満人を働かせたんだ。それをキミはかたや「奴隷」でかたや「貴重な仕事を上げている」という。「他人がやれば浮気で自分がやればロマンス」って発想だ。
”台湾が独立してアメリカ軍の基地を作る。それで韓国・日本・台湾・フィリピンにアメリカ海軍がいると。中国の完全包囲。それは中国が納得するべき?韓国と日本から米軍を撤退させれば中国も丸くなるよ。 ”
別に中国は包囲されてなんかいない。ソ連は解体したし、鄧小平はゴルバチョフに対してモスクワとの関係改善の条件としてベトナムのカンボジア撤退とモンゴル駐留ソ連軍の撤退を要求した。だから、今はどちらも脅威ではない。さらに上海協力機構ができたから、国境の北と西はみんな友好国。北朝鮮とパキスタンはもともと同盟国だ。これのどこが包囲されてるんだ?
今はフィリピンには海軍基地はないし、台湾にもない。でも中国はフィリピンには南沙諸島の領有権で、台湾には独立問題でそれぞれ軍事的圧力をかけている。米軍が撤退するだけで、中国が丸くなるなんて、信ずべき根拠は何もないよ。
韓国に関しては朝鮮戦争で中国に攻められたんだから、彼らに米軍基地の有無をどうこう言う資格は中国にはない。日本の米軍はもともと中国を日本の侵略戦争から守るためにアメリカが参戦して、日本を占領した結果いるわけで、もともと70年代まで中国への親近感が強かったころは、米軍撤退の意見もあった。
”出たよ見せ掛け憤慨。そもそもアイヌ人何人いるよ。北海道の過半数だったら権利あげるか?”
おいおい、少数民族は沖縄にもいるんだぜ?沖縄知事選には毎回独立派が立候補してるんだ。泡沫候補だけどな。
”台湾でも今やってるんじゃないか原住民権利。で本土文化ツアーやって儲かってるし。笑わせるよ”
台湾での原住民の権利が中国より保証されているのは、すばらしいね。でもそれは中華人民共和国とは何の関係もない。俺が言っているのは、台湾そのものの独立さ。
M-Bone
July 12, 2009
9:47 pm
So we should start from the point of view that things are getting discussed and that things are getting done.
> But there's no "total" discussion about things.
I don't know about you, but in the public discourse of other countries like the United States, which clearly does have a very developed civil society, there are a wide range of interest groups arguing diverse issues from guns and abortion to anti-war and health care - with little seemingly holding them together into a "total" discussion and that the real zone of most activism is local (or ethnic, religious) groups. Asking for a vaguely defined "total" discussion is setting a strange standard. I was quite put off by the lack of a "total discussion" during last year's election with McCain getting away with cutting off Obama's attempts to being Bush's policies by saying "If you want to run against President Bush, you should have run four years ago" and pretty much quashing any attempt to have a discussion on a level other than individual issues.
"People may complain about some isolated case of polution, but nobody complains about the whole countryside being a pool of concrete,"
Ise bay typhoon of 1959 - 5041 people killed or missing.
Similar strength typhoon in 2008 now that there is solid infrastructure like all of that concrete on the shore, rivers, hills likely to collapse in heavy rain - 2 people killed or missing.
See why people don't complain?
> about the Nokyo system,
Correct me if I am wrong here, but isn't the nokyo system a series of agricultural organizations that push for an agenda that supports rural areas? Aren't they an example of people (including local elites, yes) forming interest groups, a major component of civil society, but being too successful?
> about how kids have to study 12 hours a day to pass an exam, etc.
That is sooooo 1990. The number of hours studied by Japanese young people has dropped dramatically over the past decade as university entrance pass rates have gotten higher and higher.
http://univ.howtolearn.biz/gakuji/gakuji_07.html
http://www.naraken-pta.jp/kirinuki08.htm
The opposite of what you are saying happened - partly because of demographics and partly because of popular movements for education reform that resulted in the ゆとり教育 movement, and at the same time similar movements were crushing attempts by one group, coupled with influential members of the poltical elite, to introduce more nationalist content. So not only are your fundamental assumptions about inhumane study hours no longer relevant, but this is actually an example where Nikkyoso, local PTAs, etc. have had a great impact.
>The big things aren't subject of discussion.
Any other big things that you're confused about? Aceface is entirely right here - you need to read more newspapers and better yet, some monthly journals, books, etc. on these issues. It sounds like you are mistaking "I haven't read about it" for "it doesn't exist".
> And God forbid I defend the Nikkyoso, commies they are. But it was pretty humiliating having them run besides running cars on a main street.
I'm sure that Aso was pretty humiliated to have a cabinet minister resign just weeks into his tenure as PM because of a fear of popular pressure groups like Nikkyoso. I'm not entirely sure that they are commies at this point - bleeding heart lefties, yes.
"Edmund Burke泣くよ"
Burke must be crying a lot these days.
”バークは泣いて喜ぶよ”
Yes, indeed, for Burke conservativism meant monarchy and keeping those dirty commons out of politics.
M-Bone
July 12, 2009
9:55 pm
At 6:30 in the morning, "bring in" became "being".
Aceface
July 13, 2009
1:09 am
Similar strength typhoon in 2008 now that there is solid infrastructure like all of that concrete on the shore, rivers, hills likely to collapse in heavy rain - 2 people killed or missing.
See why people don't complain? "
Actually the dude who sit right next to me is doing 50 years commemoration of Ise typhoon while I'm doing the research on NPO's removing concrete ditch from rice field.So we talks about this pretty often and covic movement do make complain on the issue.Especially the mood is shifting toward anti-dam and concretes due to the recently elected Nagoya mayor and upcoming COP10 meeting for biodiversity preservation treaty in Nagoya next year.The city and Aichi prefectural government is now making gentrification in certain rural area by restoring natural landscape as part of the effort called "Satoyama Initiative "by Ministry of Environment.
"forming interest groups, a major component of civil society, but being too successful? "
Which is true,but since Nokyo has been serving as vote collecting machine for the LDP,it's political influence has a lot to do with LDP and current electoral distirict system.And the change probably requires the transfer of power from LDP in central government plus constitutional revision,of which both has been suspended by the lack of opposition party taking over the government.So I'd guess Spandrell isn't wrong on this one.Me think.
"for Burke conservativism meant monarchy and keeping those dirty commons out of politics."
Yes,but what Burke had also proclaimed " the challenges change but the virtues needed stay the same" kinda meme and that's pretty much shared by the both side of political arena in the words like "must change to stay the same"talks by Ozawa et al.
And also Spandrell just chose one wrong day to describe Japanese politics don't change nor civic society doesn't exist.July 12th was the day LDP lost majority in Tokyo for the first time in 44years.Plus,there were demonstration by 700 people marching around Shibuya protesting massacre in Xinjiang.
Aceface
July 13, 2009
2:41 am
昔暴れて大量に殺された。おかげで一部は独立できたけど。
内モンゴルの国防上の重要性はチベットや新疆の比じゃない。なにせ万里の長城のすぐそこなんだから。中国は少数民族の中でもモンゴル人問題を最優先した。
内モンゴルを制圧するために、日本敗戦後、中共はまず清朝のモンゴル貴族の息子でモンゴル語が離せない党員のウランフを使い、人民共和国設立の前に内蒙古自治区を作った。これで中華民国から独立するために満州国の日本と協力したり、あるいは日本人に抵抗したモンゴル人たちが、外モンゴルへの併合を求めてウランバートルと連携させないようにした。ウランフに反対したモンゴル人は「汎モンゴル主義者」か「国家分裂主義者」ということでみんな殺された。
次に文革の時にウランフが内蒙古自治区で独立王国を作っているとして、漢人の紅衛兵を下放と称して大量に送り込んだ。たくさんの内モンゴル人の党員が「ウランフの手下」とか「ウランバートルのスパイ」というでっち上げで殺された。「狡兎死して走狗煮らる」とはよくいったもんだ。モンゴル統一を阻んだ最大の功労者で一部ではモンゴル民族の最大の裏切り者とされる男が、自分が忠誠を尽くした党にあっさり裏切られるんだから。これでモンゴル人の知識人や専門家は内蒙古で、漢族にその地位をのっとられてしまった。
これを読むといい。ちなみに著者は漢人風の名前をもっているが、モンゴル族。http://ci.nii.ac.jp/naid/110007023962/ja
さらに最近は「生態移民」ということで、砂漠化した草原から遊牧民を強制移住させている。砂漠化の原因は農耕で牧畜ではないことは、モンゴルや中央アジアの研究で証明されているが、中国でそれをいうのはタブーだ。結局モンゴル族を漢族集合地域に強制移住させるというもう一つの目的のほうが重要なんだろう。モンゴル族はウイグルのようにイスラム教徒でないから、比較的漢族との通婚が盛んだしね。
こうした内モンゴルの近現代の歴史や現状は中国ではほとんど教わらないし、研究の自由もない。だから、中国からくる内モンゴル人の留学生は日本に来て本を読みまくる。(それに比べ外モンゴル人は本なんて読まない。相撲をとるだけだ)最近日本の大学でモンゴルの歴史研究を志す大学院生の多くは内モンゴル人だ。上にリンクした論文を書いた人も日本に来たときは、モンゴル族だけど、漢人姓の上にモンゴル語がしゃべれなくて、漢人の女性と結婚していた。でも研究を続けるために新聞配達をしながら日本人からモンゴル語を学び、日本で研究を始めたそうだ。日本国籍をとったのは、これから研究を続けるのは危険だから、万が一のための保険として取得したんだろう。他にも少なくとも2人そういう内モンゴル人を知っている。
彼らがいうには、内外モンゴルの統一も内モンゴルの独立も内モンゴルにおけるモンゴル文化を守ることもむずかしい、と考えている。だから、モンゴル民族の独立と文化の保持はモンゴル国にまかせて、自分たちは内モンゴルの現状がすこしでもよくなるよう、外国に身を置きつつ、努力しようと考えている。
そういう風になったのはキミのいうように「リンチが暴力」を抑制したなんてチャチなものではなくて、民族の存続自体が危ぶまれるほど、ジェノサイドがもう内モンゴルでは進行してしまったということだ。抵抗しないんじゃない。できないんだ。もっとも民族争乱は内モンゴルでもあるけど、規模が小さいため外部に報道されない。フフホトはウルムチ以上に漢人の都市だしね。
ウイグルが内モンゴルのようにならないのは、モンゴル人は都市文化をもっていない遊牧民だった。だから都市化すれば漢族化する。
でもウイグル人は昔からオアシス地域で農民や商人だった人も多い。ウイグル語はチュルク語系だから、世界中のトルコ民族とコミュニケーションできる。人権侵害は内モンゴルでジェノサイドが行われていた50年代や60年代と違って今はテレビもインターネットもあるから、秘密にできない。それにウイグル民族には独立国家が一つもないから、あきらめることもできない。新疆のウイグル文化が消滅すれば、ウイグル文化はかつてユダヤ人のように世界中に散らばった少数の亡命者のものになったしまう。イスラム教は異教徒との結婚を禁じているから、あまり漢族とは結婚を通じてつながることはないし、殉教を英雄視する価値観も持っている。
たぶん内モンゴルと同じようにならないね。
M-Bone
July 13, 2009
3:12 am
I see what you mean Ace. I should have said - see why people haven't made a huge national fuss about it throughout the postwar period.
"but since Nokyo has been serving as vote collecting machine for the LDP"
In democratic "civil society" - it is pretty much understood that intrest groups are going to strongly back their supporters in politics. Can we identify strong currents in American civil society that are not tied to one party or the other? Not many. Let's also not forget that Nokyo have their roots in American agrictural liberalization during the occupation and rural = conservative is a reliable formula just about everywhere.
I don't think that Nokyo are nice or anything - simply that they are a sign of people banding together to rather ruthlessly protect their own lifestyles in a movement that exists outside of politics to a large degree. And who is to say if the LDP has shaped the Nokyo or if the Nokyo have shaped the LDP? I don't think that we can fault rural conservatives for looking out for number one and not having voted Socialist all these years. Civil society does not have to be progressive and let's face it, there is no real point to having one if it is not out to influence politics.
M-Bone
July 13, 2009
4:26 am
Nokyo were first formed as one of the liberalizing reforms of the American occupation. That have continued to, rather ruthlessly, protect the interests of people in rural areas at the expense of urban consumers.
Did the LDP form the current agricultural policy and force it on the nokyo or did the nokyo influence the LDP in order to make sure that members got paid a lot for rice crops - at least keeping up with urban wages?
This type of relationship does not cease to be a function of civil society just because it is conservative or supporting the ruling power. The vast bulk of civil society movements on the local and national levels in the United States and elsewhere have their ideology and interests tied with one party or the other. Nokyo are no different than small town mayors begging for arms contracts that support regional factories or any number of other conservative political themes elsewhere. They are not a bastion of liberalism, by any means, but civil society is about collectively trying to influence government, not necessarily being progressive or polite.
Why haven't the nokyo been smashed out of existence by voters? I think that part of it has to do with a nationalist attachment to Japanese rice and kokusan in general. The LDP isn't discouraging this but I don't think that they are the wellspring. Nokyo and rice prices are far more complex than a simple "politicians dominate people" narrative that Spandrell seems to favor in describing Japan.
Concerning Ise - indeed you are right. I should have mentioned that the infrastructure development was popular to a point but now there is a great deal of resistance. My concern is that many discussions of Japan's concrete rivers don't even seem to acknowledge that they serve a purpose and that purpose was to cut down on the massive numbers of deaths from typhoons and flooding seen throughout Japanese history and that they have been a success on this level. Japan has had two enviornmental movements - one against pollutants that harm people and one against enviornmental destruction. The first has been more successful than the second but both are important and shouldn't be tossed out behind the concrete cliche as Spandrell does.
spandrell
July 13, 2009
5:02 am
That all those dams are built just as a massive pork barrel system is admitted by everyone.
And everyone who´s something still has its kids go to 塾 every day. You need to to get into a good university anyway. I guess its getting better, but its still insane.
And yeah I know it's strange I complain about the 1955 system when it's beginning to crumble. But it is still here, right? It took 54 years, 20 of them of crisis, to even start changing a bit. And nothing big's happened yet.
What's gonna happen in Tokyo though? JDP+Commies? Komeito changing sides? It´s really getting funny.
The chinese stuff I'll address later, I'm kinda out of time right now. Thanks for the mongolian info though, I had read something about the late 50s but not that much.
M-Bone
July 13, 2009
6:19 am
I live in a "rural" area of Japan, care about it more than the cities, and understand that this system brings money and trickle down jobs into the area. If people were not being paid too much to farm, my prefecture would be a ghost town (eh, ghost prefecture). Didn't say anything about Japanese culture. Notice that I'm in line with Japanese progressives on most issues like education, but when I express support for a conservative Japanese idea? Yeah, I must be one of those crazy Japanophiles. While I don't support the LDP, I'm one of the many people who is looking out for number one - the local area. I gather that you live in an urban area of Japan, right? Feel free to hate nokyo, but there is nothing irrational about supporting it from where I'm sitting.
Anyway, why do people feel a need to present the decades of LDP rule as a total disaster? I want to see change, but I think that Japan does okay.
"And everyone who´s something still has its kids go to 塾 every day."
Juku numbers have also been declining since the early 1990s along with average hours of study which, as you can see from the chart that I linked, are now well below the United States and China.
"special interests bribe politicians who control people".
Those Western countries with civil societies don't have special interests with political clout? What happens when some of those special interests like farmers, burakumin, etc. have half a point? What about when those special interests are the "little guy"? Well, we call those special interests lobby groups or activists, and isn't that what civil society is all about?
Aceface
July 13, 2009
6:47 am
And in your case,you are defending Chinese abusive policy to Uyghurs.Defending Nokyo sounds to me a lesser crime in my book.
"It's not "politicians dominate people", it's "special interests bribe politicians who control people". "
Well,actually special interests bribe politicians ARE controlled by people.Not the other way around.
"That all those dams are built just as a massive pork barrel system is admitted by everyone. "
Admitted but not accpeted by "everyone".
"And everyone who´s something still has its kids go to 塾 every day. You need to to get into a good university anyway. I guess its getting better, but its still insane. "
As being a father sending son to a Juku,I have to ask this.Since when has sending a son to a juku and expecting him to go to a good university become an act of insanity?There are things called competion in life you know.
"But it is still here, right? It took 54 years, 20 of them of crisis, to even start changing a bit. "
That's right.And your argument was "nothing ever changes in Japanese politics".
"What's gonna happen in Tokyo though? JDP+Commies? Komeito changing sides? It´s really getting funny. "
Not exactly.Since Japanese Communist Party clearly takes distance away from DPJ.And so far there's no sign of Komeito changing sides.And why is this "funny"?Shuffling political coalition has been occured multiple times in both national and regional congress since the 90's.
All I can say about what will be happening in Tokyo is Ishihara is going to be in trouble.But that's democracy,something you've chose to ignore not happening here.
spandrell
July 13, 2009
7:57 am
It took a while, huh. After 20 years of economic stagnation it is time.
"As being a father sending son to a Juku,I have to ask this.Since when has sending a son to a juku and expecting him to go to a good university become an act of insanity?"
What's the point of school then? Of course I understand the actual need of doing it, I'm not blaming the parents. But are people saying that 12 hours of study every day are necessary for a kid to be educated? Didn't have cram schools in Europe, and I wouldn't say Japanese kids are that more educated than kids in any average european country. A bit more yeah, but not that different.
M-bone: I'm a college student in Tokyo. So yeah, I've been in rural japan, my gf's father is very active on those things and talks hours about all problems in the countryside. So I'm aware, just not involved on it. The thing is, is there any other way that having a vote-buying corporatist organization such as the Nokyo organizing ALL the farmers? Is there any other way? Not like the countryside isn't dying little by little anyway. Nokyo maybe helping people get by but certainly it's not fixing the problem.
May I ask what are you doing over there? What's your job, I mean.
"Not exactly.Since Japanese Communist Party clearly takes distance away from DPJ."
What then? Ishihara is not only getting in trouble, he'll have no way of doing anything at all. ねじれ都議? 4 years? ugh. Hope they at least they'll cancel the Olympic bid.
"Well,actually special interests bribe politicians ARE controlled by people.Not the other way around."
Good point. But I don't see "society" as a bunch of interest groups. There's supposed to be some unity thing about it. I don't think that's point of democracy. Japan has always been about factions and little groups fighting each other though.
Going back:
:繰り返しで悪いが今の中央アジアにイスラム主義の国は一つもないよ。イスラム教徒が住んでいるということと、「イスラム主義」の違いぐらいは知ってるんだろうね"
知ってるよそんぐらい。ただウイグルには宗教の影響は前ソ連の国ほど弱まっていない。ウイグルが独立したらイスラム国になる可能性が十分高い。
しかも中央アジアが影響あるか?キルギスは大国???中国以下の平均所得で?アフガニスタンに近いからアメリカに軍事基地を売ってるだけじゃないかい。
”夕刊ゲンダイと夕刊フジって読んだことないの?”
香港にだってすごいこと行ってる雑誌はいくらでもある。ただ主流の新聞はそこまでいえないのはどこも一緒。法倫功の人らは毎日みたいに香港でデモやってるよ。またいうけど、日本の新聞は中国の悪口をいう勇気ないなら、香港の新聞はなおさらだろう。
”大体核実験場に選定されるところは遊牧民しかすまない。漢族なんていないよ。”
人がいない場所にするよ。せめて密度の低い、簡単に移住できる。当たり前だろう。どこでやればいいんだじゃ。遊牧民族の昔の生活方式を許している国なんてない。中国だけそれを認めるべきか?
”おいおい、日本の民主主義や市民社会にはずいぶん厳しいのに、中国には妙に甘いね。ネットでちょっとづつなんて変わんないよ。”
中国は人権大国、民主国家どうのこうの自慢してないんだもん。日本だけはわれわれ日本人が素晴らしい自由な社会とほらを吹きながら、結局政治は同じ人たちが60年以上握っている。20年構造改革やるといって何も進まない。中国は残酷な自由のない独裁国家として罵倒されるばかりだから、そうでもないよって指摘したいだけ。問題はもちろん山ほどある。
”バークは思想家、自民党は政党。現実が理想に見劣りするのは政治の本質だ。 ”
いやあ、バーク好かれてないみたいですね。まあ間違っていたかもしれないが、今の社会で利益を得ているから守ろうぜという論理ではない。自民党は従来の官僚指導政治を正当化するようなまともな理論さえない。そもそも自分で作ったんじゃないし。便乗して儲かってるだけ。
東アジアでもっとも繁栄しているのは日本で間違いない。でも自民党は実際統治しているか怪しいね。そもそも自由といえば今の韓国のほうが若干自由度が高いと思うけど、まあそこは詳しくないからほっとく。
共産党の突っ込みはそのとおり。その一面は非常に強い。でも中国で毎日みたいに激しく論争されている。中国の第一の課題として長年指摘されている。共産党でかいし、内部でもそれを正そうとしている人もいるし。でも一応共産党は自分の政策の責任は取る。日本の政策は官僚が決めているのに責任を取らない。
”各々の民族集団に自立させて、損得勘定を考えさせればいい。”
そんなことしたら広東省は自分の独特な文化を掲げて独立しだすよ。損得勘定で独立可能ならどの国でも金持っている地域が独立してしまう。ヨーロッパの状況見てみて。スペイン、イタリア、ベルギーで同じことがおきている。
”今はとにかく、暴力を排除すること”
理論としては、ウイグル人が平和で文句言いたいだけで、中国人が言わせてくれないから癪に来てつい暴動になってしまったという話なんだね。もちろん大部分のウイグルは暴動にしたくなかったかもしれないが、その暴力したがるチンピラみたいなウイグル人の一部分を抑える必要がある。それはウイグル人内部でやってもらうのは一番だね。
それが可能かどうかっていう問題。非常に難しいと思う。歴史でそういうつもりで少数民族に妥協していくと、徐々に要求が高まるだけで、結局独立してしまうんだ。
”中央政府の指令で新疆を占領してるんだから、ウイグル人を雇わないのはあたりまえだ。 ”
でも雇ってやってるんだな。政策としては。民間のレベルで逆に衝突が多いと思う。
"別に中国は包囲されてなんかいない"
まあロシアとは仲良くはしているけど友好国でもないね。
問題は中国は戦争しうる相手はアメリカしかない。アメリカと戦うなら太平洋に出なきゃいけない。今の状態でそのルートが全部米軍基地か米軍同盟国で埋まっている。中国はそこをどうにかしたいのは当然。
”台湾での原住民の権利が中国より保証されているのは、すばらしいね”
すらばしくないよ別に。少数民族がまったく力ない時間まで待って、権利を上げて、観光資本に使う。まあ実際儲かるからどこでもやっているんだから仕方ないけど、そこで国民の寛容さとか自慢するのをやめてほしいな。
ちなみに沖縄人は少数民族扱いなん?そういう法律あるっけ。
沖縄に実際独立派が勝ちそうになったら東京から厳しくなるだろう。怖くないからこそ寛容になれる。
M-Bone
July 13, 2009
8:47 am
Fixing the problem in the countryside:
On that level, Japan has had serious discussion about sending a portion of a person's lifetime tax back to the place where they were born and raised in order to help rural areas. There is discussion of how to fix the problem of the dying countryside and sub-state government levels have been very vocal about change (Hashimoto in Osaka, for example). There is a national discussion going on here.
Root of problems in European education. The book for this theme is "The Prodigy" by Hesse.
Concerning the "unified" national discussion - Been reading Habermas? Unified discussion is an ideal, but Habermas has come out lately and said that the European public sphere "must be Christian". As has Umberto Eco. So the kind of unified discussion that you are talking about can also be a type of conservative backlash. These individuals are talking about unified and vital debate, but isn't it also old white guys with some pretty conservative ideas saying that - you talk on our terms or no dice? Replace the old white guys with old Japanese guys and I don't see that big a difference between the elite in Japan and Europe in this regard.
In any case, when people just say "no change for 50 years" it makes ordinary Japanese people look like wimps. However, when you break it down by time period, there is a bit more nuance -
1950-1960 - Gradually increasing support for a leftist alternative. A good argument could have been made for voting Socialist.
1960-1970 - That leftist alternative manages to back the ousting of Kishi, but breaks down into factionalism and trivial debate over Marxist ideology while the LDP steams forward into the income doubling era, high growth, the shinkansen, and the Olympics. The "logical" choice would have been to vote LDP.
1970-1980 - The LDP rather brilliantly co-opt the left's environmental plan, heading off potential election defeat, but manage to hang on to majorities. The left is strengthened by economic setbacks (mostly over an oil crisis that the LDP had little to do with) but undermined by terrible images thrown up by the Red Army and general increasing prosperity.
1980-1990 - Drunk on mega-consumption, who was going to vote Socialist? Can't blame the orgy of excess all on the LDP - regular people were going hog wild and overlooking the bubble as well. The politicians were irresponsible, but most of that really only came out after the fact.
1990-1995 - The LDP actually did get voted out, but the Socialists screwed the pooch to an amazing degree (that I don't want to detail here). In effect, the Japanese left self destructed when they were most needed as a political alternative.
1995-2000 - Nobody knew what the hell was going on. I think that somebody should have gotten their shit together during this period. If there is a period in which mainstream Japanese can be blamed for inaction, this is it, but it is also the period in which some of civil society's greatest successes take place - the tainted blood products scandal protests and the anti-textbook reform movement to name a pair.
2000-2005 - Okay, so in retrospect Koizumi turned out to not be all that, but damn was he a political force. Compared to the lame face put on by the Minshuto, I'm 90% sure that I would have been tricked into going LDP if I were an ordinary Japanese.
2005-2009 - So here we are, the first post Koizumi election has been called and it looks like the axe will fall. I would argue that this is the first time that we have low growth, a semi-decent opposition, and lo and behold, change.
In a broad sense, the LDP has supported universal healthcare and things more associated with the left in the United States. Basically, they were expert at buying votes from the silent majority and interest groups (like Nokyo) for a long time and voting for them was an act of logical self interest where voting for the left would have been voting from the heart, but that day has passed.
Job - I'm a researcher and spend about half of my time in Japan.
tomojiro
July 13, 2009
9:04 am
If they have purchased Eda-rosen (admitting the SDF, acceptance of the US-Japan alliance) in the mid 70ies, that would be a whole another story (probably).
As you said, they have self destructed themselves. I am still very disappointed with Japanese liberals (politician and in many cases intellectuals) that many of them can't handle foreign policy and security policy from a more realistic stand.
Aceface
July 13, 2009
10:40 am
20 years?Back in 1989 Japan was at height of economic bubble.You are also forgetting LDP also lost power in 1993 to 94 and Socialist PM in 1995.
Economy also went right back in track during Koizumi years of 2001 to 2006.
"
But are people saying that 12 hours of study every day are necessary for a kid to be educated? "
Well,I can safely say stydying 12-hours-every-day is common practive amon g Japanese youth,unless you are not choosing Morgan Spurlock way of choosing examples to analyze social symptom.
"Didn't have cram schools in Europe, and I wouldn't say Japanese kids are that more educated than kids in any average european country. A bit more yeah, but not that different. "
Perhaps.
But should things has to be the same in both Europe and Japan?
"What then? Ishihara is not only getting in trouble, he'll have no way of doing anything at all. ねじれ都議? 4 years? ugh. Hope they at least they'll cancel the Olympic bid. "
But most of the things Ishihara does is plainly stupid anyway,but don't worry.There will soon be an election to replace the governor.And oh yeah,sorry to inform you that DPJ agrees with Olympic bid.
"But I don't see "society" as a bunch of interest groups. There's supposed to be some unity thing about it. "
You can pick from the bucket.Either that is "We Japanese" to sports team fans.Labor unions and rotary clubs.
"Japan has always been about factions and little groups fighting each other though. "
well,anywhere but North Korea does that!
”知ってるよそんぐらい”
中央アジアにイスラム国家があるとおもってたんじゃないの?
"ただウイグルには宗教の影響は前ソ連の国ほど弱まっていない。ウイグルが独立したらイスラム国になる可能性が十分高い。 "
そうは思わないね。だって海外の亡命グループにウイグル人イスラム主義者はいないから。
それに独立後のウイグルの政治体制を中国(あるいは世界)が心配する必要なんかあるのかね。
”しかも中央アジアが影響あるか?キルギスは大国???中国以下の平均所得で?アフガニスタンに近いからアメリカに軍事基地を売ってるだけじゃないかい"
別に独立する上で大国になる必要はない。それにキルギスは大国との外交をうまくこなしている、といっただけだ。所得に関していえば、なるほどキルギスは貧しいが、それは天然資源がないからだ。そしてウイグルはそれをタリム盆地にたくさん持っている。独立できれば、中央に上納しなくてもすむから、豊かになれるさ。すくなくとも個人所得はね。それにウイグル人は豊かさと同じぐらい自由を望んでいる。そっちが重要。
”香港にだってすごいこと行ってる雑誌はいくらでもある。ただ主流の新聞はそこまでいえないのはどこも一緒。”
キミがいってたのは「香港は日本より遥かに言論の自由がある」と「蘋果日報みたいな新聞は日本では生き残れるかなぁ。あれだけ自民党の悪口言ったらどうなるんだろうね。ありえない」だろ。「どこも一緒」じゃなくてさ。日本の方が報道の自由は香港より確立されてるよ。
”(核実験)はどこでやればいいんだじゃ。”
別に核実験なんてやらなくてもよかったんじゃない?
”遊牧民族の昔の生活方式を許している国なんてない。中国だけそれを認めるべきか? ”
いっぱいあるよ。モンゴルとか。
”中国は人権大国、民主国家どうのこうの自慢してないんだもん。”
そりゃそうだよ。中国には人権も民主もないんだから。
”日本だけはわれわれ日本人が素晴らしい自由な社会とほらを吹きながら、結局政治は同じ人たちが60年以上握っている。20年構造改革やるといって何も進まない。”
すばらしいかは別として、ある程度は自由なんじゃないの。特に中国と比較すれば確実に。
政治は同じ党が握っていても、あんまり普段の生活には関係ないし、首相や大臣は簡単に失脚するから、自由への脅威と感じないこともある。構造改革はあまり進まないのは、それこそ大企業の論理だけでなく、中小企業や農家や非正規労働者のような経済的弱者もある程度政治力をもっているからだろ?
”中国は残酷な自由のない独裁国家として罵倒されるばかりだから、そうでもないよって指摘したいだけ。問題はもちろん山ほどある。 ”
俺たちはその山ほどある問題の中の一つであるウイグル人の人権問題を議論しているだけ。別に中国を「罵倒」しているわけではない。
それにしても、キミはM-Boneが農協を弁護すれば冷やかすのに、「残酷で自由のない独裁国家」はずいぶん弁護するんだね。
”今の社会で利益を得ているから守ろうぜという論理ではない。”
バークほんとに読んだことある?フランス革命は今の社会をぶち壊してまったく新しいのをゼロから作ろうぜ、というう思想。バークはそれに反対した。今の社会は様々な伝統や歴史的産物
で、そこに暮らす人々は有形無形の利益を得てるから守ろうぜ、といったのが主著の「フランス革命の省察」だよ。
”自民党は従来の官僚指導政治を正当化するようなまともな理論さえない。”
そりゃそうだよ。官僚主導政治は過去20年克服の対象だから、「理論的に正当化」なんてするわけがない。
”そもそも自分で作ったんじゃないし。便乗して儲かってるだけ。 ”
そもそも自民党が作った55年体制から高度経済成長がはじまったので、日本経済の成功は自民党の歴史的貢献だね。
”そもそも自由といえば今の韓国のほうが若干自由度が高いと思うけど、まあそこは詳しくないからほっとく。”
おれは詳しいからいうけど全然そんなことないね。今インターネットの書き込みに実名制を導入したり、狂牛病報道に関してテレビ局のディレクターのEメールを検察が押収したり、首都でのデモを全面禁止にしようとしたり、むちゃくちゃですよ。いくらキミでも前の大統領が飛び降り自殺したぐらいは知ってるでしょ?韓国は今検察ファッショですよ。
”でも中国で毎日みたいに激しく論争されている。中国の第一の課題として長年指摘されている。共産党でかいし、内部でもそれを正そうとしている人もいるし。でも一応共産党は自分の政策の責任は取る。日本の政策は官僚が決めているのに責任を取らない。”
ご冗談を。じゃあ胡錦濤や王楽泉は今回の新疆の事態の責任をとって辞任するわけ?
大躍進や文化大革命や天安門事件の責任は誰がいつ取った?毒入りギョーザ問題は?
四川大地震で露呈した手抜き公共事業の問題は?
少なくとも自民党では「辞任」という形で責任を取る。それが適切かどうかは別として。
”そんなことしたら広東省は自分の独特な文化を掲げて独立しだすよ。損得勘定で独立可能ならどの国でも金持っている地域が独立してしまう。ヨーロッパの状況見てみて。スペイン、イタリア、ベルギーで同じことがおきている。 ”
でも現実にはスペインでもイタリア、ベルギーでも実際に分離独立した地域はない。イギリスでもカナダでもそう。広東省だって独立しないよ。自分たちのことは中国人だとおもってるから。
”理論としては、ウイグル人が平和で文句言いたいだけで、中国人が言わせてくれないから癪に来てつい暴動になってしまったという話なんだね。”
違うよ。文句をいいたいんじゃなくて彼らは独立したいのさ。
”もちろん大部分のウイグルは暴動にしたくなかったかもしれないが、その暴力したがるチンピラみたいなウイグル人の一部分を抑える必要がある。それはウイグル人内部でやってもらうのは一番だね。 ”
ついでに暴力振るってる漢人と、無差別に発砲する武装警察もね。
”それが可能かどうかっていう問題。非常に難しいと思う。歴史でそういうつもりで少数民族に妥協していくと、徐々に要求が高まるだけで、結局独立してしまうんだ。 ”
可能かどうかはやってみないとわからない。それにしてもウイグルの独立は別に悪いことじゃない。
”でも雇ってやってるんだな。政策としては。民間のレベルで逆に衝突が多いと思う。 ”
それは生産大隊ではなく、公務員や国営企業のハナシ。でも本来ウイグル人を同じ中国国民と考えてるならは「雇ってやってる」という言葉はでないはず。しかも中国の憲法では民族自治区では行政はその自治区の主体民族が行う権利がある。つまり、新疆ウイグル自治区なら、ウイグル人が15%どころか最優先されるのが本来の姿。「雇ってやってる」んじゃなくて、今の現状が憲法違反。
”まあロシアとは仲良くはしているけど友好国でもないね。”
じゃ、「包囲」されてるわけではないでしょ。国際政治では仲良くしてるだけで友好国だよ。
”問題は中国は戦争しうる相手はアメリカしかない。アメリカと戦うなら太平洋に出なきゃいけない。今の状態でそのルートが全部米軍基地か米軍同盟国で埋まっている。中国はそこをどうにかしたいのは当然。”
別に「問題」でもなく、「当然」でもない。中国の常識が世界の非常識というだけ。アメリカと戦争したいと思うのは勝手だけど、だから、「そこをどうにかする」権利は中国にはないし、回りの国がそれにあわせる義務もない。
”すばらしくないよ別に。少数民族がまったく力ない時間まで待って、権利を上げて、観光資本に使う。まあ実際儲かるからどこでもやっているんだから仕方ないけど、そこで国民の寛容さとか自慢するのをやめてほしいな。 ”
台湾の先住民政策は自慢するだけのことはやってるんだからいいんじゃない。中身のない大国きどりしてるどこかの国よりはさ。
”ちなみに沖縄人は少数民族扱いなん?そういう法律あるっけ。 ”
沖縄人含めて、特定の市民を多数と判別するために少数民族と規定する法律はない。でもこれはソ連とそれをマネした中国やユーゴのような社会主義国の一部がそうした法律をもってるだけで、そういう法律はイスラエル以外民主国家ではきいたことがない。
ちなみに沖縄振興特別振興法という法律はある。
”沖縄に実際独立派が勝ちそうになったら東京から厳しくなるだろう。怖くないからこそ寛容になれる。”
日本は法治国家で民主国家。東京ができることは補助金の削減ぐらい。それに別に沖縄独立を怖がる理由もないしね。「怖くないから寛容になれる」のではなくて「寛容な社会だから怖くない」
”M-bone: I'm a college student in Tokyo. ”
キミはこんなとこでヒマ潰すより。M-Boneのところで一日12時間ぐらい勉強したほうがいいかもな。
Aceface
July 13, 2009
12:43 pm
It's "Is not".
spandrell
July 13, 2009
2:08 pm
"田舎は興味ないっすね。日本の大学の暇は実にありがたい。でも今週ちょっと試験で忙しくなるんでこれの続きを今度で。
まとめとしてウイグルは独立するべきっていう話だからそこはどうしようもないね。中国は領土を渡すわけがない。正当性とか統治権利とかは言われたらきりがないし、どこの土地でも侵略によって獲たものだから。ウイグル人は中国の中で仲良くできるアイディアがあればいいが、そういう風にならない限り解決しない。チベットも同様。
”「寛容な社会だから怖くない」 ”というのは素晴らしい理念だが時代遅れ。
韓国の情報はどうも勉強になりました。日本でも有害サイト規制法ができなきゃいいね。
Aceface
July 13, 2009
3:27 pm
結論を決めたあらかじめ上での議論なんて意味がないよ。
”正当性とか統治権利とかは言われたらきりがないし、どこの土地でも侵略によって獲たものだから。”
際限なくそれを主張しているのは中国だよ。過去の歴史問題から、今の国境問題までね。
”チベットも同様。 ”
チベットは違うよ。ダライラマは独立を主張していないから。でも中国は信じないし、交渉もしない。北京オリンピック前は国際世論を欺くため。ダライラマが死ねば、国際的注目も消え、チベット亡命政府は分裂すると考えている。その間に漢人の入植を内モンゴルまでとはいわないまでも、新疆程度には増やしておく。鉄道と幹線道路で結び付ければ、流通も生産設備も握れる。中国が交渉に臨むのは絶対的優位が確保されろまでなにもしない。
”日本でも有害サイト規制法ができなきゃいいね。”
別にその程度なら問題ない。なにが有害でなにがそうでないかの議論が開かれてさえいれば。
”「寛容な社会だから怖くない」 ”というのは素晴らしい理念だが時代遅れ。 ”
だけどその寛容な社会だからキミもそんな小生意気な口が聞けるのさ。もっとも中国がさらに強大化すれば、そうした自由も東アジアのこのあたりでは、ゆっくりと廃れていくだろうけどね。
ま、試験の方も頑張ってください。
M-Bone
July 13, 2009
10:29 pm
The Japanese left have typically been far left.
The LDP have typically included moderate left ideas, center, and moderate conservative with a sprinkling of hardcore conservative. In their prime, something for virtually everyone.
The US Democrats tend toward the moderate left and center with some ideas that seem in line with moderate conservatives in other countries.
The Republicans tend toward center and moderate conservatives with some lapses into fundamentalist religious conservativism.
The Japanese left could have reoriented itself as a vote getting party rather than an ideological nexus in the 1970s. They needed to recognize a new national consensus behind economic growth and the necessity of big business and included some of those moderate left and center ideas. Even when they were talking about North Korea as something to look up to, they were still getting around 30% of the vote! I think that the far left ideas belong in the discussion (Kanikosen...) but you shouldn't be able to win an election in a "calm" country like Japan talking about how your party will contribute to global revolution.
M-Bone
July 13, 2009
10:39 pm
Hence your dislike of nokyo?
I might live in the inaka in Japan, but my university is in a big city. Anyway, enough about me.
I also thought that I would add - While I don't see Uighur independence as a realistic political option, I'd be very happy to see it.
Roy Berman
July 14, 2009
4:54 am
I think that's what a lot of people think, probably including most Uyghur's themselves. Now, they'd probably settle for "Autonomous Region" actually MEANING something.
Aceface
July 14, 2009
5:05 am
Terrorism has more political influence where people value civic society,but place like China,it's just reverse.
It was a mistake that the U.S agreed with China listing so-called ETIM,an islamic militants Beijing thinks existing,as terrorist organization.It gave Beijing political red herring to legitimize the abuse in Xinjiang.
spandrell
July 14, 2009
9:54 am
Hell no. Food prices over here do hurt, but I'm sympathetic to the farmer's plight. Its just that vote buying machines aren't my cup of tea. Just my two cents.
"チベットは違うよ。ダライラマは独立を主張していないから。でも中国は信じないし、交渉もしない。"
ハ!青海省と四川の自治県を統合してよこせと。青海に黄河と長江が生まれている。チベットには中国人が百万人以上殺している発言。59年に2百万人いたかどうか怪しい。そういう人信じれる??そもそもどんな支配していたんだダライラマさん。
But anyway this discussion is getting too long, so let me summarize my points in English so everyone can participate. About Japan, my criticism comes from all the years I´ve lived here in an almost all-japanese environment. So I don´t have to make clear every point, I mostly agree with Karen van Wolferen´s position. Marxy´s criticism of japanese culture from a liberal perspective are also spot on. Don´t always agree with him but it does help destroy the myth of a liberal Japan.
Sure Japan is a rich and nice country, but i just don´t buy all the "we´re part of the Western world, we´re whole hearted allies of yours" thing. The system may be somehow democratic but it sure is nothing like we have in the West. Which is cool, hey, your country, do as you please. But anyway, having an export driven economy knowing that America HAS to support you (as they had during the Cold War) is kinda... せこい。 America is in no place to buy Toyotas and flat screens anymore so let´s see how this wonderful economy adapts.
As of China, sure it´s a shitty country, I´ve been there, I speak the language, I´ve been harassed by hooligans, seen people live 3 together in a small room in a Shanghai suburb without a hukou. It certainly is no liberal democracy. But I do think the government is doing an effort to make things better, that educated people are pushing the country on a liberal direction. Making China look like an agressive and repressive hegemon attempting to take the liberties of the Japanese people and eat your babies is just not true, and certainly not helping.
If Japan is afraid of China then stop giving out money, get some nukes for yourselves, and go to sleep.
tomojiro
July 14, 2009
12:30 pm
You are a liberal who supports lynching and killing minority people???
日本の政治や社会を批判するのと、中国の少数民族の虐殺にthumbs upというのとは全然ちがうぜ。ま、日本の「リベラル」にも非常に多い典型的な「偽善者」タイプだね。いかにもだ。
Aceface
July 14, 2009
12:38 pm
別にダライラマは青海省のすべてをよこせなんていってないし、チベット人が住む民族自治区の合併は行政上意味があると思うね。
1979年には東北3省や甘粛省などモンゴル人が居住している地域を内蒙古自治区に統合したことがあるから。別に目くじら立てるようなことじゃない。たしかに青海に黄河と長江の水源があるけど、別に大したものじゃない。
ちなみに青海省には長江と黄河だけじゃなくてメコン河の水源もあるけど、全部環境破壊してるのは中国じゃない。遊牧民のチベット人のほうがすくなくても環境面ではましに扱うよ。
"チベットには中国人が百万人以上殺している発言。59年に2百万人いたかどうか怪しい。そういう人信じれる??そもそもどんな支配していたんだダライラマさん。 "
オレだって南京で中国人が30万人も死んだなんて思わないし、数字のいい加減さでは中国もチベットもどっちもどっち。ただチベット亡命政府は、自由にチベットに入れないのでちゃんとした調査ができない。共産党の内部文書にもアクセスできない。わかっているのはダライラマ統治下では大量虐殺はなかったこと。つまりチベット人にとってはダライラマのほうが何倍もマシ。
”but i just don´t buy all the "we´re part of the Western world, we´re whole hearted allies of yours" thing. ”
But it's just happened to be a proven fact.At least Japan has been an American ally and member of G8 summit.
"The system may be somehow democratic but it sure is nothing like we have in the West. "
Only if you discount Italy from "the west",that is.
However,all is not so surprise since Japan neither locates geographically in west nor part of civilization.But that doesn't mean Japan doesn't share fundamental value nor basic interest with "the west".
What eveyone should be surprised about is Japan had proved being "somehow democratic" in the area where democracy never existed for thousand of years and still don't in many places in the region.
"I mostly agree with Karen van Wolferen´s position. Marxy´s criticism of japanese culture from a liberal perspective are also spot on. Don´t always agree with him but it does help destroy the myth of a liberal Japan. "
And I doubt you neither read anything of what Wolfren's writing after his "Enigma of the Japanese Power"nor his current political view.
Wolfren DOES believe in liberal Japan these days,at least in the way of maintaining liberal world order and saving the civic society from merciless American style market economy fundamentalism.
In his book(or should say "books"about half dozen of them published in the last decade),the outlier and threat to the world is not the headless stateless nation of Japan,but George W.Bush's (and his loyal supporter of his foreign policy,Barack Obama's)American empire.Where diplomacy is lead by imperialistic ambition and democracy is manipilated by iron triangle of media/military/and military complex.And people increasingly becoming insular.
Whether you take his word with grain of salt or not is your choice.I've always thought why foreigners never check the accuracy and validity of his info and analysis on Japan.But it seems Americans do so now since they are the KvW's target now.All of the American publishers have turned down the project of publishing his books and his name virtually dissapeared from English language journalism.
It seems Americans finally discovered KvW's sense of the reality on world affiars,or maybe KvW is right about America,and we shall see.
And on Marxy's criticism on Japanese culture,he will be thrilled to know that his supporter on thesis is a cool-aid drinkin' college kid who proclaim ethnic cleansing in Xinjiang.
I' ll discuss with the man on how his never ending conspiracy theory on Japanese entertainment world is giving bad effect to the mental health of expat youth next time I bump into him in Kichijoji.
"But anyway, having an export driven economy knowing that America HAS to support you (as they had during the Cold War) is kinda... せこい。"
May be you should have translated the last word in English if you are interested
in others to particiate(of which I doubt that they exist)
But I don’t think describing Japanese post war rise should be described in words like "Sekoi=meaning stingy in Japanese" since Japan has been funding both international institution and U.S military presense to secure the global staibility and prosperity more than anyone.Added to that Japan didn't just build export driven economy,Japan also supported American economy by buying U.S bonds more than anyone for years.It was (and still is)in many way,a win-win strategy.
Another word for sekio=narrow minded probably don't fit the situation since Post-war Japanese rise is probably the only case in the history that had one nation has rised to power status without military conflict with neighboring nation nor regional hegemon.This was only possible by careful diplomatic management,which is not dramatic as to make the headline in the Newyork Times,but avoiding such case was the very intention of Japanese diplomatic strategy.
"America is in no place to buy Toyotas and flat screens anymore "
Not so sure about the flat screens but they are likely to buy Toyotas more than ever in the future since Toyota will probably be the topdog in American auto market.
"But I do think the (China's)government is doing an effort to make things better"
Well,who doesn't? And here we are focusing the China's effort in Xinjiang which is not the case,objectively seen that is.
" that educated people are pushing the country on a liberal direction. "
I don't think this isn't happening in regard to Uyghurs.There could be a liberal in China,but I don't think they are neither many nor influential enough to change the situation.
Making China look like an agressive and repressive hegemon attempting to take the liberties of the Japanese people and eat your babies is just not true, and certainly not helping. "
"Making China look like an agressive and repressive hegemon attempting to take the liberties of the Japanese people and eat your babies is just not true, and certainly not helping."
Never said anything about eating babies,but the logic you've been presenting in the past few days is enough to believe China is agressive and repressive.Not exactly a global hegemon may be,but will certainly the regional one.It helps to see China without the looking glass of wishful thinking,but see it as what it is.Chinese attitude toward Uyghurs and the emotional nationalism toward foreign criticism helps you to look in to the inner psyche of the certain aspect of the Chinese and it's state of the nation,I think.
"If Japan is afraid of China then stop giving out money, get some nukes for yourselves, and go to sleep. "
We have our reasons to give Chinese financialy support.One of them is not to be branded as "sekoi" by foreigners.But the biggest reason is to help and accelerate the modernaization process so that China can fit into the regional order and resturcutre their country so that China won't be a threat to the region.We also want to sell some Toyotas and flat screens in the process.
However,things will go the wrong way if china's political reform don't match the pace of their economy or the world view of Chinese to change and accept certain global standard of liberal democracies.Which in my eyes seems happening and Spandrell don't.
"But anyway this discussion is getting too long,"
Yeah,I've realized that.It would probably be different if you don't write some bogus claims in every single sentence you post on format that I need to reply or at least use some common sense or common knowledge on the subject.
But then again,I'm enjoying this.(and so is M-Bone,I'd assume)
M-Bone
July 14, 2009
1:23 pm
Up to a point. I mean, in 2009, do we really have to argue against "The Enigma of Japanese Power"? Or would Marxy really want to be mentioned in the sentence after Wolferen?
"Making China look like an agressive and repressive hegemon attempting to take the liberties of the Japanese people and eat your babies is just not true"
Was this about the media or about what we were saying? I'm taking it as being related to your earlier ponits about the Japanese media being strongly anti-China.
The Sankei is wrong - don't read it. Most Japanese people don't.
Okay, case study time - I think that it is instructive to look at the way that the major Japanese daily papers handled the Beijing Olympics. Nikkei is hugely pro China for obvious economic reasons. Asahi had Funabashi Yoichi compraing Beijng 2008 with Tokyo 1964 - the birth of civil society and international connections and all that. The Yomiuri was just oh so happy that Chinese people love Ai-chan. NHK announcers during the openeing ceremoy spent the whole time gushing about how far China has come. Aceface's point that the Japanese media leans toward 親中 does not hold for ALL coverage, but it does for MOST.
"The system may be somehow democratic but it sure is nothing like we have in the West."
It is times like this when it pays to be specific. Is Mexico part of "the West"? Russia? Bulgaria? They sure think they are.
"destroy the myth of a liberal Japan. "
I didn't know that there was a myth of a liberal Japan. Maybe in Vogel 30 years ago... but isn't the real myth "crazy militarist Japan is coming back"?
Finally, are you seriously arguing that China is being moved by educated people in a liberal / civil society direction that Japan never had?
spandrell
July 14, 2009
1:31 pm
Hey, some liberals in the Us have talked about throwing nukes into Mecca.
"ダライラマ統治下では大量虐殺はなかったこと。つまりチベット人にとってはダライラマのほうが何倍もマシ。 "
虐殺の有無は唯一の基準か。南京の話はしかり。でもダライラマたちのデマは中国で換算すると日本人が二億人殺したと主張するみたいなものだな。そんなひどいならあんなでかい嘘をつく必要ないし。
"May be you should have translated the last word in English"
I don't think "stingy" captures the whole meaning, and M-bone should understand it if he lives over here.
"' ll discuss with the man on how his never ending conspiracy theory on Japanese entertainment world is giving bad effect to the mental health of expat youth next time I bump into him in Kichijoji. "
haha, I know you know the guy. I don't read him that often; sorry but he's not my mentor. It's not more the conspiracy theory I enjoy, is the aesthetic criticism. I really don't know or care if Johnny's rapes little boys, his stuff is still manufactured crap.
”.It would probably be different if you don't write some bogus claims in every single sentence you post on format that I need to reply”
Gentlemen sorry to tell you you started this format of replying to each sentence. I don't like it either, gets tiring.
"Added to that Japan didn't just build export driven economy,Japan also supported American economy by buying U.S bonds more than anyone for years.It was (and still is)in many way,a win-win strategy"
Until the US bankrupts, now lets see what happens. Toyota may sell more cars, but I doubt what the economy of a country incapable of building their own cars will look like. It doesn't look good.
"We also want to sell some Toyotas and flat screens in the process. "
Sure, Japan and China have both benefited greatly. It's really an economic success story. But then don't expect gratitude, especially from net-cafe kids. It's not like 2chan is calling for sino-japanese friendship.
China can't reform right now, they've tried to have elections at the village level; what happened was that the corrupt official just flooded the village with signs saying he'll give 100 yuan for vote. Or he'll get some gangsters to get people scared. China has a thug problem going back thousands of years. You need to fix that first; and you need strong central power for that.
If China gets bullied about Tibet and Xinjiang now they're gonna hate everyone for millenia. When China gets rich, liberal and nice, maybe they discover that the damn deserts over the West just aren't worth the trouble. Its not even the 50s anymore, the economies there can't sustain that many people. Hans who can are leaving Xinjiang little by little, and there's really nothing in Tibet to even plunder. Bullying them now is just counterproductive.
About Van Wolferen, I've read some things he's written recently about Japan. Didn't feel any change of view respect Japan politics; its no surprise that after marketing a dozen books to the japanese public and having not much impact he got bored and looked for another topic.
"But then again,I'm enjoying this"
じゃいいじゃないですか。試験期間というのは忙しいながらも暇でもある。
M-Bone
July 14, 2009
1:55 pm
I understand Japanese and have been reading your Japanese exchanges, but Aceface is getting so detailed that I don't have anything to add...
"his stuff is still manufactured crap. "
We found something to agree on - much Japanese popular culture is crap, especially TV. But if you look at the 1950-present period, I think that you would have a hard time arguing that Japan hasn't produced a film and literature that ranks among the best in the world and has a great deal of liberal/progressive/critical material - Imai Tadashi and Yamamoto Satsuo were some of Japan's most popular directors in the golden age (which is in the past, but now the LDP are getting voted out - you can't have it all). America, for all its strength in civil society and all of its deep discrimination problems historically, has still not produced films like Kiku to Isamu, Doro no Kawa, Hashi no nai Kawa, or Koshikei.
"China has a thug problem going back thousands of years."
Every country has a thug problem going back thousands of years. Some got over it.
spandrell
July 14, 2009
2:02 pm
"Finally, are you seriously arguing that China is being moved by educated people in a liberal / civil society direction that Japan never had?"
There's a certain intelectual force centered on the Guangzhou-based Southern Weekend newspaper. And those guys are purebred liberals. Its NYT stuff over there. Of course they're not mainstream, but they have some influence, and its growing . That the government doesn't shut them out means something.
I'll be moving to China next year, if I sense China is really an incorrigible fascist hegemon who's gonna eat our babies, I'll be the first to tell you.
Aceface
July 14, 2009
3:50 pm
第一の基準だ。中国の日本を判断する基準もそれだろ。別にチベット人の総意が中国人にラマ支配からの開放を頼んだわけでもなく、経済成長に向けた投資は併合を正当化するためのものなんだから。それにウイグル同様、あまりチベット人は恩恵にあずかっていないか、格差が大きいため、漢人だけのための経済成長だと感じている。。
”でもダライラマたちのデマは中国で換算すると日本人が二億人殺したと主張するみたいなものだな。そんなひどいならあんなでかい嘘をつく必要ないし。”
人口比率から考えればチベット人の犠牲者の数がチベット社会に持つ重みは、中国人にとっての「億単位」に十分値するよ。
ダライラマは中国人を殺すことを奨励してもいないし、中国政府が彼にするように罵倒してもいない。冷戦中のCIAによるチベットの反政府ゲリラは、ダライラマの影響力の弱い東チベットのカムパ族を中心に編成された。ダライラマが武力闘争に反対だったからだ。彼の最大の罪が誇張なら、それは大目にみられるんじゃないの。中国だって白髪三千丈がお家芸だし、はるかにひどい宣伝してるんだしさ。
”Until the US bankrupts, now lets see what happens.”
外需依存は中国の方が日本よりも遥かに高いよ。日本は1%成長でも15年以上、政権交代すらおきないほど安定してるけど、中国が8%以下になったら、どうなるやら。let's see what happens.
"but I doubt what the economy of a country incapable of building their own cars will look like."
Well,Americans will build Toyota in American factory,I guess.
"It's really an economic success story. But then don't expect gratitude, especially from net-cafe kids."
But it's the net-cafe kids and their parents gain more from economic relation from Japan,either that is investment,trade,yen loan or oversea development aid.
If they don't feel the gratitude,fine.But don't expect the same from Uyghurs or Tibetans.No Chinese has been killed by Japanese on their soil since 1945.nor Japanese being the agent of oppression in everyday life.Same cannot be said about Tibetans and Uyghurs in their relation with Chinese.
"It's not like 2chan is calling for sino-japanese friendship. "
Some in 2chan does.Anyway,the reason 2chan being anti-Chinese/Korean is because real life environment promotes Sino-Japanese(or Korea-Japan)friendship and they expect no opinion but support that.Which is why they see hypocricy,especially they fell(or know) the counterpart don't share the Japanese enthusiasm.
”Didn't feel any change of view respect Japan politics”
Not the internal,but it's way of dealing international issues.He proclaimes EU-Japan stronger ties to halt the U.S.
” its no surprise that after marketing a dozen books to the japanese public and having not much impact he got bored and looked for another topic. ”
Ever heard a phrase called "One trick pony"?Problem about KvW is he can barely speak any Japanese and has very little literacy.Lots of Japanese papers has been translated by a Japanese woman in his office.
"China can't reform right now"
China would never get reform if you sit and wait for corruption and organzied crime to dissappear.Because they never will.Either in China,or Japan or anywhere.
"I didn't make a point of Japanese media being biased"
You did.Scroll up and read one of your early comments.
"If China gets bullied about Tibet and Xinjiang now they're gonna hate everyone for millenia."
Two good news
One:We are not "bullying" China
two:None of us live for millenia.So let's speak out what we believe in and do we want while we are still here.We only live once.
"When China gets rich, liberal and nice, maybe they discover that the damn deserts over the West just aren't worth the trouble. "
Maybe,but maybe not.
First of all,we are not so sure whether China would be "rich".Because of massive population
Secondly,wide income gap and lack of rule of lawa and democratic institution will never allow liberalism an influential philosophy among majority.
Thirdly.You won't be nice to opponent unless either you are not rich enough or think liberal to some extent.
Fourthly.You're intentionally counting out what Tibetans and Uyghurs think.
Their opinon is the most important.
"Bullying them now is just counterproductive. "
Which is what Sun-bin wrote during the riot in Lhasa and I found that pathetic,especially he reject responsibility of Chinese policy.
"But Japanese media as a custom doesn't try very hard to take a stance,"
That's because J-media is dominated by newspapers with millions of prints.They need to stay on average to have everyone satisfy and Japanese values objectivity.
"and will retract anything with a little pressure. "
That happened mostly in report regarding North Korea before 2002 and China.
Which is why most of the NK report in Japan is highly antagonistic.
China is slightly better than NK in that regard.Nonethelss,anyone who had convered China faced lots of pressure from Embassy of China.Which is the reason why there are many,and I mean MANY who are pro-Taiwan in the industry.
Another factor is many J-reporters feel sense of guilt in dealing with Koreans and Chinese for the past.And sometimes these feelings are being exploited.
It also helps reporters explaining themselves why they bent the pressure and choose to be a good news supplier on China(and South Korea)that they are ultimately doing for the sake of better relationship.
"There's a certain intelectual force centered on the Guangzhou-based Southern Weekend newspaper. And those guys are purebred liberals. Its NYT stuff over there. Of course they're not mainstream, but they have some influence, and its growing . "
This newest "China becoming liberal and democratic"doesn't excites me that much if you are reffering to 南方都市報 and 南方週報.And there's always Global Times.
"if I sense China is really an incorrigible fascist hegemon who's gonna eat our babies, I'll be the first to tell you."
Coming from of a guy who totally buy into stereotypical idea from revisionist Japanologist who can't even read Japanese properly after four decades?
The guy who holds indentical sentiment on Chinese nationalsm with angry youth and his final solution to Uyghurs are "thumb up for the lynching thing?"
You don't need to inform me on that.I can already guess what's going to be like.
I don't doubt you'll find "China,the beacon and savior of the world liberalism".
As for me,I don't even believe whether you actually know the meaning of the word.
What I want you to find out instead is why are Chinese always start saying on internet debate that "I'm not Chinese myself"when they are disguising?
spandrell
July 14, 2009
5:09 pm
俺のこと?中国人じゃないよ本当に。中国人学生だって大半論争にならん、「祖国の不可侵領土だから」で終わる。
"人口比率から考えればチベット人の犠牲者の数がチベット社会に持つ重みは、中国人にとっての「億単位」に十分値するよ"
とりあえずチベット人は何人殺されたかちゃんとした統計ある?中国が隠してるからないっていわれるかもしれんけど、ないならこんな判断できないじゃん?世界中巡回して嘘をつくのはなんと言っても正しいことではない。でチベット人がラマ教から開放されたくなかったのは当然そう。だがダライラマはチベット人の解放を唱える立場にはないね。
"But it's the net-cafe kids and their parents gain more from economic relation from Japan,either that is investment,trade,yen loan or oversea development aid. "
日本人は慈善的にやってるわけじゃないだろ?。日本人も儲かってるじゃないか。「あなたの利益を増やすために投資したことを感謝してます」って言われたい?どういうことだよ。
"外需依存は中国の方が日本よりも遥かに高いよ。日本は1%成長でも15年以上、政権交代すらおきないほど安定してるけど、中国が8%以下になったら、"
15年以上ってバブル崩壊したのは外需減ったからじゃないだろう。ずっと増え続けていたじゃないか。今年外需が暴落したときに日本の成長はどうなってる?見てみたいよ。
中国は外需でやってるけどとりあえず日本の数倍外国投資を受けている。外国企業は中国でアホみたいに儲かっている。日本とは相当違う。そこで日本が特にせこいという指摘。
”Thirdly.You won't be nice to opponent unless either you are not rich enough or think liberal to some extent.
Fourthly.You're intentionally counting out what Tibetans and Uyghurs think.
Their opinon is the most important. ””
現実主義で行きたいよ俺は。歴史上経済発展しないまま政治体制や民衆の考え方がリベラルになった例はない。実際のところ発展してから丸くなるのを期待するしかないんだ。
それかもちろん一生懸命牽制して孤立させること。でも世界中が中国に投資して儲かってるからその可能性はゼロ。さてどうしよう。
ウイグル人などが格差があって置いてかれている感情があるのはわかる。それがあるから暴動を起こしているだろう。いい生活している人は暴動を起こさない。
じゃあ現実に中国は領土をよこさないという前提でどうやってウイグルやチベット人の経済状況を改善させるしかない。さてどうしよう。
民族自決の民族や人権で考えるのは気持ちいいかもしれないけど、実際に状況改善につながっていない。暴動を起こして平民を殺すことを正当化・扇動するのも問題解決にならない。
”China would never get reform if you sit and wait for corruption and organzied crime to dissappear.Because they never will.Either in China,or Japan or anywhere””
いやケタが違う。本当に。特に汚職がひどすぎる。黒社会問題はまあある程度抑えればいいだけの話だが、
"doesn't excites me that much if you are reffering to 南方都市報 and 南方週報.And there's always Global Times. "
オッケーKvWは日本語できないから発言権ないなら、そっちは中国語できないから発言権ないよな? じゃ俺は読めるから言っとくよ。南方都市報はまあ主流ではないが一定の影響力はある。去年のチベット暴動で政府の鎮圧を敢えて批判したし。なかなかですよ。もちろん政府から反発きたけど、記者が捕まってないし今でも普通に働いている。社説は人権人権人権ばっか言ってるよ。「普遍的価値観」とかさ。期待してあげようぜ。
”Coming from of a guy who totally buy into stereotypical idea from revisionist Japanologist who can't even read Japanese properly after four decades?”
Cool, KvW is a crackpot, you know it better. But the fact that institutional reform in Japan is almost impossible because there is not a clear center of power, he said it, and its true, and is still true. Hell, I'm a language student and very personal about the need to learn the local language, but some people do have insights from other sources. Certainly the guy was here long enough to form an opinion.
And anyway no one likes Bush nor american imperialism so I don't see what's so wrong with his new views. If he thinks Japan is bad but preferable to Haliburton, he has a point.
" Or would Marxy really want to be mentioned in the sentence after Wolferen? "
They certainly feel the same way about Dentsu, for example.
”I don't doubt you'll find "China,the beacon and savior of the world liberalism". ”
馬鹿にしすぎだな。住んでみないとわかんねえだろ。俺が無知だっていうなら知識を蓄えてきますよ。
Aceface
July 14, 2009
7:08 pm
ちゃんとした統計を出す義務があるのは現在支配している中国にある。
"中国が隠してるからないっていわれるかもしれんけど、ないならこんな判断できないじゃん?”
数は二次的な問題だね。
”世界中巡回して嘘をつくのはなんと言っても正しいことではない。”
正確ではないが、嘘でもない。
”でチベット人がラマ教から開放されたくなかったのは当然そう。だがダライラマはチベット人の解放を唱える立場にはないね。 "
意味不明。チベット人がチベット仏教から解放されたくないなら、それでいいのでは?
それにダライラマもチベット人だから、チベットの解放を唱えるのは中国人よりはあるよ。どっちにしてもかつてはさておき今は民主主義を主張してるから。
”日本人も儲かってるじゃないか。「あなたの利益を増やすために投資したことを感謝してます」って言われたい?どういうことだよ。 ”
日本人”も”儲かってる。そして中国人はもっと儲かってる。そうじゃなきゃこんな関係成立しない。「お互いうまくいってますね。」という認識もってもらうぐらいしか日本人は望んでいない。だけど認知すらしないじゃん。あれはもちろん慈善じゃないよ。慈善事業で助けて豊かになった相手から脅されるなんてこと聞いたことないでしょ?
そもそもキミはチベットやウイグル人は国を盗まれ、殺され、漢人がやりたい放題やってるなかで、ちょっと抵抗したら、「15%雇用してやったのに恩知らずめ」だろ?なんで中国人に話が変わるとそんなバランス感覚ない反応になるの?
”15年以上ってバブル崩壊したのは外需減ったからじゃないだろう。ずっと増え続けていたじゃないか。今年外需が暴落したときに日本の成長はどうなってる?見てみたいよ。 ”
増えてないよ。バブルが崩壊したのは、地価と株価が実際の価値より上がりすぎて、大口投資家が売り始めると一気に下がった。銀行も土地に投資をしていたから不良債権が急増して消費者心理が冷え込んだの。別に貿易とは関係ない。
もちろん困るが、すでにもう困ってるから変わらない。ある意味それこそ、キミの文句言っていた構造改革が進むんじゃないの?キミが存在しないと言い張っている民主党による政権交代と政治改革によって。
それこそ、付加価値の低い製品を作り、世界でもっとも貿易依存率が高いこの国のほうが問題は大きいね。不満も選挙や政権交代でガス抜きできないし、社会保障も満足にないからね。
http://j.people.com.cn/2005/09/10/jp20050910_53424.html
”中国は外需でやってるけどとりあえず日本の数倍外国投資を受けている。外国企業は中国でアホみたいに儲かっている。日本とは相当違う。そこで日本が特にせこいという指摘。”
外国企業は中国で設けている企業は一握り。だから、対中貿易で日本もアメリカもEUも貿易赤字をだしているんだ。 そもそも日本がせこいなら、中国もおなじだろ?
日本の数倍外国投資を受けているのは当たり前。労働組合もなく、法律も機能せず、環境基準もゆるいから、よその国では作れないような工場をありえない人件費で動かせる。そりゃ投資するよ。
日本はもうけた金は世界に還元する。ちなみに中国は日本と同じぐらい経済規模だが、国連の分担金は8分の1だ。安保理の常任理事国でやってることは拒否権ちらつかせるだけなのにね。せこいのはどっちかね。
http://www.mofa.go.jp/mofaj/gaiko/jp_un/yosan.html
”歴史上経済発展しないまま政治体制や民衆の考え方がリベラルになった例はない。実際のところ発展してから丸くなるのを期待するしかないんだ。 ”
え、経済発展、中国してないの?そんなわけないだろ?問題なのは、経済発展がおきているのに、政治改革もほとんど進まず、国民の意識も全然リベラルになってない。むしろある意味意識のほうは20年前より悪くなっている。
”民族自決の民族や人権で考えるのは気持ちいいかもしれないけど、実際に状況改善につながっていない。”
だって、そもそも中国政府も中国人もキミも考えてもいないじゃん。状況を改善させる意思もみあたらない。ただ文句言う奴は黙らせろ。それでも黙らないなら殺せってだけだぜ、今の状況は。
”暴動を起こして平民を殺すことを正当化・扇動するのも問題解決にならない。 ”
それを正当化したり、扇動してるのは君でウイグル人じゃないね。
”いやケタが違う。本当に。特に汚職がひどすぎる。黒社会問題はまあある程度抑えればいいだけの話だが、 ”
汚職を無くすには、法の支配と自由なメディアと有権者による監視が必要だ。つまり3権分立が必要なわけ。インドネシアも汚職は中国と同じぐらい酷かったけど、民主化したし、多少はましになった。それに黒社会の方こそお得意のリンチにかければいいじゃない。
”オッケーKvWは日本語できないから発言権ないなら、そっちは中国語できないから発言権ないよな?”
発言権がないとはいっていない。かなり誇張や誤解が多く、日常的に日本人や日本語の文献に接していれば、ありえない記述が多い。警視庁によるクーデターとかさ。
それにオレは中国に40年住んでいるわけでもないし、中国の本を15冊も書いているわけじゃない。
”南方都市報はまあ主流ではないが一定の影響力はある。去年のチベット暴動で政府の鎮圧を敢えて批判したし。なかなかですよ。もちろん政府から反発きたけど、記者が捕まってないし今でも普通に働いている。社説は人権人権人権ばっか言ってるよ。「普遍的価値観」とかさ。期待してあげようぜ。 ”
キミよりも進歩的ということだね。広東省は胡・温のコントロールが完全に効いていない。だから南方日報グループのようなメディアは中央にとって利用価値がある。汚職暴露の報道は広東省の既得権益層を切り崩すのにも使えるし、下手に手を出せば、反胡・温勢力に利用されるような論調に変わるかもしれない。今は泳がせておくだろう。だが中央が完全に広東省を掌握したら、それまでだね。それに中国の新聞なら環球時報や強国論壇にも一定の影響力はある。付け加えると人民日報にもね。
キミは樹を見て森を見ないタイプだよ。日本の森の中で枯れ木を一本みつけると、「見ろ、この森はもう死んでる」中国の砂漠に生えた樹を一本みつけるとこんどは、「見ろ、これからここはジャングルになるぞ」
結論からいうと南方都市報はどれだけ頑張っても、今回の事件は起きたし、政府の行動にも一般市民のウイグル人への理解に変化はなかったってことだ。だからといって今後に期待しないわけではないが、「ニューヨークタイムズ並み」は大げさだろ。
”But the fact that institutional reform in Japan is almost impossible because there is not a clear center of power, he said it, and its true, and is still true.”
Not exactly,Since he has been saying from time to time in the 90's that Ministry of Finance has the power.Which has a point,but now it's not.Secondly.lots of people were against KvW's analysis on Japanese structural power.But KvW wrote that all in one book.Others wrote in mor detailed with boring stats.He won,they lost in English speaking world.But not that it means the truth had prevailed.
Biggest misjudgement of KvW is Japanese system is invincible when it comes to economic management,something both the reality has shown that it's not so accurate and I'm sure you agree with that.You are simply catching his talking point and don't have knowledge nor insight to judge the validity of the thesis.
You believe them because that's what you want to believe.And from there,criticism gets shut out.
"They certainly feel the same way about Dentsu, for example. "
But not about pop culture of which Van Wolfren detests and Marxy making career on it.
"馬鹿にしすぎだな。住んでみないとわかんねえだろ。俺が無知だっていうなら知識を蓄えてきますよ。"
ロバが旅に出たところで馬になって帰ってくるわけではないと思うけど。でもまあ、若いうちは旅をしたほうがいいかもな。こんなところで日本人相手にヒマつぶすよりも。
M-Bone
July 14, 2009
10:49 pm
This is one problem that I see in Asia coverage - China moves 0.2% toward libearlism, it is big news and people start going ape. Japan moves 0.2% toward miltiarism (whatever that looks like...) and we have the same thing. Put them both together and you seriously have some outfits reporting on "liberal" China and "illiberal Japan" all the time - often side by side.
I have seen plenty of evidence that China is deveoping what you could call a concerned civil society that can and does pressure government. I don't think that it would be an exaggeration to say that it is decades behind where Japan was in 1960, however. I'm not concerned with people eating babies, I'm concerned with thuggy strike breakers and people being afraid to go to the police and with cultural genocide and the other kind.
外需依存は中国の方が日本よりも遥かに高いよ
I was thinking the same thing. And let's face it, China sells a LOT of stuff to Japan too. How is China going to keep growing if the US and Japan tank? There goes that investment $$$ that Spandrell mentioned as well. You know, we have been hearing since 2000 that next year or the year after all that Chinese R&D, all those engineers being trained, are going to produce the next big consumer innovation, the next big global brand. Still waiting.
"You did.Scroll up and read one of your early comments. "
That's right, he DID! So my mini case study was useful.
"But Japanese media as a custom doesn't try very hard to take a stance"
But they do take very developed positions on, say, Article 9. The Yomiuri even publishes a huge constitution draft. There are also 1,000,000plus circulation papers with very defined ideological stances - Akahata and Sankei.
"オッケーKvWは日本語できないから発言権ないなら、そっちは中国語できないから発言権ないよな"
Talking about two very, very different things here. KvW talks about the Japanese media and publishing, political speech and discourse - things for which Japanese knowledge is necessary. We're not really saying anything about what Chinese politicians say about nationhood or anything, aside from the way that the recent riots were reported and all of that was translated - just that killing lots of people and Hanification don't seem to be good. I don't even know what language is spoken in Sudan, but random killings = bad is not not exactly going out on a limb. There is another big difference - I, for example, love a bunch of Chinese films (especially from the 1990s). KvW just dismisses everything without, apparently, having read or understood much at all. A lack of language skill only becomes a major problem if you are making a grand holistic analysis.
日本の森の中で枯れ木を一本みつけると、「見ろ、この森はもう死んでる」中国の砂漠に生えた樹を一本みつけるとこんどは、「見ろ、これからここはジャングルになるぞ」
This line is pure gold.
spandrell
July 15, 2009
8:15 am
別にウイグル人に「ありがたく思え」と言ってない。でも漢族平民の観点からして、あいつらに大して優遇政策あんのにあいつら勝手に暴動を起こして人殺してるじゃないか。それはそっちの大好きな「憤青」がブチ切れるのも一理ある。
学者はウイグル人の経済問題などについては真剣に研究していて、なんとかしてあげるしかないという認識が一般的。そうならないだろうけどさ。別に「憤青」がうるさいだけで数はさほど多くないし。
”え、経済発展、中国してないの?そんなわけないだろ?問題なのは、経済発展がおきているのに、政治改革もほとんど進まず”
まだ平均所得2千ドル程度だぞ?アメリカの学者たちが8千ドル程度から民主化可能って言ってたよね?どうやって結論だしたかわからんけど一理あると思う。
あんな環境で選挙できるわけがない。台湾でだってめちゃくちゃじゃないかよ、射殺事件なり何なりして。韓国も毎回政権変わると検察は野党をいじめるんだろう?
”増えてないよ”
90年代はアメリカの経済はどんだけ拡大したよ。
”すでにもう困ってるから変わらない。ある意味それこそ、キミの文句言っていた構造改革が進むんじゃないの?キミが存在しないと言い張っている民主党による政権交代と政治改革によって。 ”
だといいな。どうなるんだろう。
それこそ、付加価値の低い製品を作り、世界でもっとも貿易依存率が高いこの国のほうが問題は大きいね。”
安物大量生産の戦略は政府が近年遠ざけようとしている。かなりきつい労働法を制定したし、外資の投資の条件が付加価値の高い製品にするよう規制か変わっている。
いくら何でも中国政府の連中は馬鹿ではない。経済だめになったら飛ぶの自分の首だっていうことを十分理解している。
”ちなみに中国は日本と同じぐらい経済規模だが、国連の分担金は8分の1だ。”
それは前から知ってるけどアホじゃないの?外交って金出せばいいってもんじゃないよ。まあ小泉の時代からこれの見直しの声が増えていいけど。
”汚職を無くすには、法の支配と自由なメディアと有権者による監視が必要だ。”
そうか?シンガポールとかでメディアの自由とか有権者とかあまり働かないけどつまんないぐらい清潔な政治なんだよね。法治を確立させたのは民主じゃなくて実質独裁政府の努力。香港だって選挙さえないのに汚職が少ない。
インドだって民主的なのに汚職がすごいだろ?民主化して記者を自由にしたら国が自動的に繁栄するもんじゃない。悲しい話だが。
”But not about pop culture of which Van Wolfren detests and Marxy making career on it. ”
Hey do you have to oppose anything I say? KvW is an old white man, different generation. And the gold age of japanese pop culture was the 90s anyway.
KvW made sense of japanese politics, Marxy makes sense of pop culture here. We expats don't read CanCam, he makes sense of all the buzz surrounding it. Of course the only way of interpreting things is to have a critical mindset; if you like something you don't try to dissect and understand it.
The best I read of him was when he criticized the whole happoshu boom. There's something seriously wrong with a country who can't afford to drink beer anymore.
Asahi sells for 4 yuan in China, by the way.
"Biggest misjudgement of KvW is Japanese system is invincible when it comes to economic management"
Hey, who knew? Who knew that the japanese would stomp their own feet with the bubble, and then a software revolution would happen in the US which would make the massive industrial japanese machine redundant. Can't blame the guy.
The Finance Ministry controls the money, but does it have authority over all the government? It certainly wasn't easy for Koizumi to make their bidding back then. Say what you want, the guy made a coherent picture of the japanese government system which is basically accurate. That he did that without speaking the language means the guy has a fucking gift.
”KvW just dismisses everything without, apparently, having read or understood much at all””
Nobody read his book as a critique of japanese culture. Some people just have no sense of taste. Can't ask for everything. Talking about movies, any recent movies here that are not too lame?
”結論からいうと南方都市報はどれだけ頑張っても、今回の事件は起きたし、政府の行動にも一般市民のウイグル人への理解に変化はなかったってことだ。だからといって今後に期待しないわけではないが、「ニューヨークタイムズ並み」は大げさだろ。 "
たまに人権の話がうるさいから、俺より進歩的といっても過言ではないかもね。
今回の事件=ウイグル人が暴動を起こして平民を殺した
悪いけど中国人の善悪を少数民族に対する態度だけで考えるなら話が進まないわ。とてもじゃないけど優先順位が低い。期待しているのは中国の発展であってウイグル人の自由じゃない。
まずできることから進んでいこう。
Aceface
July 15, 2009
11:24 am
でもウイグル人平民の観点からして、勝手に人の土地にきて、民族自決権どころか民族自治区の約束も反故にして、さらに天然資源まで奪い、ウイグル語の教育機関は閉鎖したあげく、平和的なデモに一方的に警察が発砲して、抵抗すれば漢族がリンチを始めてるじゃないか。それはそっちの大好きな「イスラム主義者のテロリスト」がブチぎれて、中東かアフリカの中国人労働者をターゲットにするというのも一理ある。(おっとないか。ラビア・かーディルは公式にテロ予告を非難してるし)
”学者はウイグル人の経済問題などについては真剣に研究していて、なんとかしてあげるしかないという認識が一般的。そうならないだろうけどさ。”
じゃあ意味がないね。それに中国政府はウイグル人の経済問題などについて真剣に研究している学者は逮捕してるみたいだしな。http://www.yomiuri.co.jp/world/news/20090710-OYT1T00972.htm
”別に「憤青」がうるさいだけで数はさほど多くないし。 ”
あいつらはうるさいだけじゃなくて、数も多い。とてもな。しかも対日政策では影響力も持っている。胡錦濤が来日したとき、毎日ネットで世論を調べてるとしって、日本側は愕然としたよ。
”台湾でだってめちゃくちゃじゃないかよ、射殺事件なり何なりして。韓国も毎回政権変わると検察は野党をいじめるんだろう?”
だが、台湾は元総統を逮捕できる。陳が着服したとされる金額は中国の規準なら雀の涙だ。
韓国の民主主義には問題がある。だがそれは日本と比較して問題がある、とおれが言っているだけで、中国よりは100倍マシだ。君だって、韓国の方が日本よりも自由とおもってたんでしょ?
”安物大量生産の戦略は政府が近年遠ざけようとしている。かなりきつい労働法を制定したし、外資の投資の条件が付加価値の高い製品にするよう規制か変わっている。 ”
だが、それで失業が増える。しかもその受け皿を考えていない。広東省は他省からの出稼ぎ農民を故郷に送り返すことしか考えていない。
君がいっていたのは、「次の経済危機で日本がどうなる」ということだ。民主党政権は労働市場の柔軟性を「派遣切り」としか見ないから、さらに構造改革にむけた変化は遅れる可能性もある。しかし、その変わり、経済危機に対する耐性は強まるだろう。もちろんゾンビ企業は淘汰して、企業がリストラを進めやすい方向に向かうかもしれない。そうすれば日本経済は一時的な痛みを感じるが長期的には競争力を強めるだろう。どっちにしても日本は世界最大の債権国だ。経済収支も黒字。どっちに転んでも乗り切る力はある。
中国はどうかな。労働紛争が激化すれば、社会不安も増すだろうし、いっそう治安機関や軍に依存した政権運営になる。若者への仕事は減り、高齢化も進んでいく。しかも日本のように福祉制度も整わず、一人あたりの経済力も低いままね。オレは次にアメリカで経済危機が表面化すれば中国でなんらかの政治危機が起きると思うね。
”それは前から知ってるけどアホじゃないの?外交って金出せばいいってもんじゃないよ。まあ小泉の時代からこれの見直しの声が増えていいけど。 ”
君がいっていたのは要約すると「日本がアメリカ頼みの輸出主導経済を構築して、自分だけ黒字を貯めてるのが特にせこい」ってことだろ。オレは日本はその黒字を、自国だけでなく世界の福祉のためにも還元しているといってるんだ。だから、「せこい」と言われるのは心外だし、まちがっているね。
それに、君が絶賛する中国は日本のパクリで輸出主導経済を構築しただけでなくて、日本のように西側の一員としての行動や価値観の基準にもしたがわず(君はこれを信じていないらしいが)また、国際機関に還元する形で国際貢献をしてもいない。そのくせ、様々な国際会議では開発途上国の代弁者きどりで先進国を非難するんだから。「せこい」のはどっちだい?
”シンガポールとかでメディアの自由とか有権者とかあまり働かないけどつまんないぐらい清潔な政治なんだよね。法治を確立させたのは民主じゃなくて実質独裁政府の努力。香港だって選挙さえないのに汚職が少ない。”
シンガポールと香港の二つは一つの都市だけでできた社会だ。政府が管轄する行政範囲も人口も少ない。それに都市と農村といった利益の対立する地域を抱えていないから、官僚機構が清潔で有能であれば、民主主義の議会がなくてもある程度、社会の利害を調整できる。香港ではメディアも日本ほどではないが自由だし、シンガポールも国境を超えたマレーシアで自国では禁じられた情報を得ることが出来るし、海外衛星放送の受信傍受は自由だ。さらにつけくわえれば、一応どちらも議員を選ぶ選挙はある。こうした都市国家ならば法の支配の確立は限定的だが可能だ。
しかし、中国は人口の大きな農業社会。だから異なる利害を調整する場として立法府である議会が必要だ。さらに官僚機構は腐敗しているから、これを監視するメディアも必要だ。でも言論の自由はなく、議会である全国人民代表会議の代議員は選挙で選ばれない。このままでは法治は無理だ。
”インドだって民主的なのに汚職がすごいだろ?民主化して記者を自由にしたら国が自動的に繁栄するもんじゃない。悲しい話だが。 ”
だけどインドは今急成長しているぜ。民主化して、記者を自由にし、イスラム教徒がテロまでおこなってるけどね。中国よりもだいぶいい。
”Hey do you have to oppose anything I say? ”
Unless you keep saying anything that I can't agree,sure.
and golden age of Japanese pop culture was 70's and 80's.
"There's something seriously wrong with a country who can't afford to drink beer anymore. Asahi sells for 4 yuan in China, by the way. "
Well,the happoshu boom came from the fact that Japanese forgot what the real beer tastes like thanks to Asahi for circulating Super Dry,the proto-happoshu in taste.I'd imagine China would soon follow the passage to happoshu.
"Hey, who knew? Who knew that the japanese would stomp their own feet with the bubble, and then a software revolution would happen in the US which would make the massive industrial japanese machine redundant. Can't blame the guy. "
But what if the guy's core thesis WAS the unstoppable Japan Inc and it's foundation of power? Should Dick Chenney be left out from his misguided campaign on Iraq?
"The Finance Ministry controls the money, but does it have authority over all the government? It certainly wasn't easy for Koizumi to make their bidding back then. "
Ooops.I thought you agreed with KvW's analysis that Japan DON'T have center of power.But it did.Koizumi did knock down MoFA with help of Takenaka Heizo.
Koizumi has proved that prime minister can be prime in government,if only s(he)shows leadership and has certain political clout.Something KvW chose not to admit until this day.
"That he did that without speaking the language means the guy has a fucking gift. "
That I agree.I'm also amazed by the fact that he became English lecture at Waseda University in the mid 60's with only limited education of graduating Dutch highschool.He teaches in University of Amsterdam now,and the guy only been to university to teach but never to study there sounds amazing.But then again,this can't be possible if his main field wasn't Japan studies,an academic field protected from the reality check of people who know the subject most,which is Japanese.
"悪いけど中国人の善悪を少数民族に対する態度だけで考えるなら話が進まないわ。とてもじゃないけど優先順位が低い。期待しているのは中国の発展であってウイグル人の自由じゃない。"
そしてここは中国の発展ではなくて、ウイグル人の自由を論じているスレだ(った)。
別に君と話を進めるのが目的じゃない。
それに、中国政府や中国人が話す言葉よりも、ウイグル人を含めた少数民族への接し方を見ていくほうが、はるかに中国の今の現状と今後進んでいく方向がわかるよ。
M-Bone
July 15, 2009
12:14 pm
!!!?!?!?!?!
50s, 60s, 70s, 80s > 90s > 2000s
"KvW made sense of japanese politics"
Didn't he just argue that Japanese politics make no sense?
"Marxy makes sense of pop culture here"
Marxy writes interesting stuff about fashion and pop music. He doesn't write much about manga, anime, video games, movies, popular literature or non-fiction. That's not a knock - he does what he does.
Anyway a bit of advice - if you bring up KvW in any academic discussion, conference, etc. you will get laughed out of the place. The guy was a 芸能知識人 who wrote some very superficial stuff that is mistaken for deep, mainly because he didn't say much at all. It is the equal of "Bowling Alone" or something - long since dismissed, no longer discussed.
"The Republican Party doesn't have a center" - look, I can do it too.
Anyway, look at any political science or sociology literature from the past 15 years - KvW doesn't get cited much. When he does, it is almost like a punch line.
Japan has had some great, great films in the last 5 years or so. I could list some, or you could just check out the best lists on Midnight Eye, which are a pretty good summary.
You seem to have a "no" habit. Japan has "no civil society", "no good movies lately", "no political center", "Japanese media takes no stance". Couldn't it just be that you don't know very much about this stuff or are blowing stuff to extremes because you want your Japan understanding to fit into a nice little box?
Aceface
July 15, 2009
12:55 pm
http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2009/07/14/chinas_one_hundred_years_of_ineptitude
"It is the equal of "Bowling Alone" or something - long since dismissed, no longer discussed."
What? the book just came out in Japan only s few years ago.
spandrell
July 15, 2009
1:44 pm
I meant for Marxy's tastes. That's the stuff he likes and talks about. I've no opinion about golden ages nor whatever. Nor I give a shit.
"Couldn't it just be that you don't know very much about this stuff or are blowing stuff to extremes because you want your Japan understanding to fit into a nice little box?"
Could it be that I find it boring to try to nuance every sentence? I'm not writing an academic paper here. Change "no" with "weak" or whatever. I'm not in research, will never be, so relax man. Just discussing here.
"平和的なデモに一方的に警察が発砲して、抵抗すれば漢族がリンチを始めてるじゃないか"
基本的な事実についても合意してない時点では論争は無駄だな。平民を数十人殺した暴動の話を平和的なデモというのはデマの極みだ。
”あいつらはうるさいだけじゃなくて、数も多い”
そうでもないって。そもそも日本嫌いなのは憤青だけじゃないから、日本に厳しく言うのは政府にとって損することはない。韓国だって国民が日本嫌いだし、戦争の話だけじゃない。
”自国だけでなく世界の福祉のためにも還元しているといってるんだ。だから、「せこい」と言われるのは心外だし、まちがっているね。 ”
せこいという言葉で気を悪くしたなら謝るけど、そう感情的になる必要はない。政治的じゃなくて経済的に言ってるんだよ。これも個人的な話もあって、外国企業が中国で儲かっていて、日本ではあまり儲かっていない。まあバブル崩壊後は日本も外資に対する態度はだいぶよくなったけど、日本はアメリカやヨーロッパで儲かってる分は、経済的には若干せこい。今中国はパクリだと日本人がわめくが、60-70年代はヨーロッパの工業フェアーで日本人がカメラを持って写真取り巻くって後で商品をパクりまくる話は有名だよ。それで日本で関税はかけないがいろんなせこい手段で外資企業は歓迎しないように。特に中小企業はまったく相手にされない。
そういうことを言ってるんだよ。別に国連に金だしたり、カンボジアで学校作っても、貿易赤字になった先進国の知ったこっちゃない。
”中国は人口の大きな農業社会。だから異なる利害を調整する場として立法府である議会が必要だ”
仮にちゃんとした選挙はできたとしても、農民が選ぶ議会で中国はどうなるかは誰だって知っている。でたらめいうな。
”Ooops.I thought you agreed with KvW's analysis that Japan DON'T have center of power.But it did”
Does it have ultimate authority? KvW did talk about Tanaka Kakuei being very powerful, or Nakasone trying to strengthen the premiership. Of course Koizumi was powerful, but what happened after he left? The fact is that a prime minister in Japan doesn't half nothing close to the authority of a prime minister in a western country, that the system doesn't work like that. And that's true, and hasn't changed. Of course the balance of power changes with time, but doesn't it always go back to normal with some time?
Say what you want, but the fact the prime minister doesn't decide policy, that the LDP is not a unified political party, that bureaucrats decide policy while fighting each other, etc. etc. Things that during the war, nobody in Japan had the power of Hitler or Churchill is not widely known. It should be on textbooks. It should be given for free on arrival to Narita.
".I'd imagine China would soon follow the passage to happoshu. "
God forbid!!! You can find Qingdao big bottles for 1 yuan in Beijing.
Aceface
July 15, 2009
2:55 pm
くだらん。
spandrell
July 15, 2009
3:12 pm
じゃいいわ
M-Bone
July 15, 2009
10:03 pm
Once again with the "western countries". PMs in parliamentary systems are not typically supposed to have the types of super powers that you are assuming. You are giving KvW way too much credit.
Here is an example of his usual way of arguing from one of his recent articles -
"When Japanese friends told me in January that Ozawa would probably be the next Japanese prime minister I asked them: but what of the coming scandal? Some things are very predictable in Japan."
See, KvW didn't predict the "coming scandal" in a publication or in public, he "told his friends" and later breaks it out in a publication to show how his understanding of Japan allows him to "predict" what will happen. Pure bunk. Of course, he never cared much for empiricism because grand generalizations and border line conspiracy theory are easier.
Speaking of conspiracy theory, are you familiar with Benjamin Fulford? He is another one of those 芸能知識人 he has some "rational" irrational conspiracy theories like the "yakuza recession", but he also runs the full range of crazy - 9/11, Jews, Masons. He thinks that Japan has a political center - ninjas or something.
Guess who KvW has been writing with lately?
幸せを奪われた「働き蟻国家」日本―JAPANシステムの偽装と崩壊 (単行本)
カレル・ヴァン ウォルフレン (著), ベンジャミン フルフォード (著)
Aceface
July 16, 2009
1:27 am
とりあえず、こちらは一応反論する際には事実関係を確認している。そのために反証を準備してから反論するが、どれだけ、事実関係の間違いを指摘されても君は思いつきをしゃべるだけ。
複数の言語ができるみたいだから、多少は変わった意見があるかと思ったら、「アジアは日本が嫌いだ」とか「欧米人は日本人がエコノミックアニマルがから嫌いだ」といった紋切り型か、ウォルフレンと中国の官製メディアの受け売りしかしないだろ。あんまり議論してもこちらは君から得るものはないよね。2ちゃんねるか憤青と知的水準は変わらない。もっとも連中は留学なんてしなくても、にたりよったりの議論はできるから、君の知性のコストパフォーマンスは連中以下だな。
それに君は意見を変える必要はない。むしろもっとそのユニークな日本や中国に関する自分の意見をネットのあちこちでオープンに出してくれ。少なくともウイグル人に関しては、まちがいなく同意する人よりも反発する人の方が多いから、オレやM-BONEが、あちこちのブログで誤解や偏見に反論したりするよりはるかに効果的だ。この手の議論をする奴がどんな奴かを広く知らしめるにはな。
M-Bone.
On Ozawa,I still remember KvW at one of the lecture organized by SAPIO magazine back in 1994.(He had column there at the time)He was saying many key political figures who challenge "the system" get assasinated in the shadowy agent of the system,the right wingers,and he is very worried about something bad may happen to Ozawa.He's sort of mixture between Oliver Stone and Noam Chomsky when it comes to analyzing "the system" and "the administraters".
However,I have to defend KvW on one thing.That was recoreded conversation being edited by editor afterwards.He seemed to be so confused with Fulford on that one and you could even tell from the book.(KvW also made similar book with Morinaga Takuro.「年収300万円時代 日本人のための幸福論 which was also a disastrous book.)And Fulford wasn't a wacko from outerspace at the time.Fulford was writing in the manner of conventional revisionist Japanologist like "Japanese economy follows the foot steps of Argentine" or "Yakuza is behind the decades of recession" or "Why are J-journos are bunch of cowards",blah,blah,blah.
M-Bone
July 16, 2009
1:47 am
I'm not in favor of the common "it is just a 対談, it is the editor's fault" sort of copout - people still have to take responsibility for hammering out their theories in Sapio or Bungei rather than in a sphere more conductive to arguments supported by evidence. If KvW wants to get paid, that's fine, but in doing so, he should expect that people won't treat him like a serious scholar. I really don't have any problem with him only having a high school diploma and being a university prof - it should, after all, be about the knowledge and detailed arguments, not about the qualifications. The problem is that the detailed arguments aren't there either.... Could KvW have expanded on his themes in a more detailed way? Well, we'll never know because he's gone over totally to paid by the word cash and carry "foreign view" stuff in the Japanese media - it is a form of entertainment, plain and simple.
"the right wingers,and he is very worried about something bad may happen to Ozawa."
It seems that KvW and Fulford have one thing in common - a love of ninjas.
That's the problem with prediction - people seldom call one on being wrong well over half the time and when one claims to have predicted the future, well, that just happens to be the time that they told their buddies over drinks instead of publishing it.
Aceface
July 16, 2009
2:37 am
There's a small boom on Hoffer revival in Japan around 2003.And guess what.It's been translated by one of student of Chalmers Johnson,now a proffesor of Shizuoka Univ.He even added the article by Sheila Johnson,wife of Chalmers,on the memory of Eric Hoffer.Hoffer and Johnson's had intersection during Berkley years.
My take on the taidan with Fulford and KvW,At least KvW didn't agree with Fulford on stupid claim nor Fulford brought up 911 conspiracy theory there.
I'd assume things become undebatable from KvW invented the term" Administrotors" too wide in range and overgeneralized to discuss the role and fanction in the politics.I'd imagine that's what happens to people who turns into a
thinker from journalist.Journalists is good at fact and reality check,but few possess broad theoretical or comparative knowledge to analyze events and those who specialized in the foreign reports are usually not used to have their ideas checked by critical eyes because the readership simply don't have enough knowledge to criticize.I'd imagine the readership of NRC Handelsbrad totally believe every word KvW wrote on Japan and I've confirmed this when I was in Amsterdam back in '92.
spandrell
July 17, 2009
7:36 am
いろんな言葉できるからこそ、いろんな人としゃべってきたからこそ現実的に考えるんだよね。抽象理念を持っていろいろ考えていた時代も会ったけど、そのうち飽きた。韓国と中国が日本が嫌いだというのは事実だし、政府のせいといえば政府のせいになるし、メディアのせいといえばメディアのせいになる。投資しているから好きになってくださいよといっても無駄。日本だって人工的に韓流を作ってあげて儲かるようにしてるのに、それでも嫌われてる。
俺は別に日本が嫌いじゃないしど、なんか近年は衰退している感じがして、逆に悲しいから何とかして欲しい。俺は第一中国に呑み込まれて欲しくない。
About KvW, I kinda feel this sense of despise of an academic towards the non-orthodox. M-bone you really have a feel for authority arguments, huh? The guy was just confused about Japan (and thousands of expats have felt the same), and he got an answer to his doubts. He was a bit over the top? Sure. He was a bit too negative? Sure. But he got the big picture right.
I'm not American, I know what a parliamentary system is, for god's sake. I'd guess Harper is not as powerless as Aso here, am I wrong?
M-Bone
July 17, 2009
10:22 pm
I don't think that Harper is as powerful as Koizumi was.
Aso isn't as powerless as Kim Campell.
How powerful was Paul Martin toward the end when he was trying to hold together his party? As powerful as say, Abe was during his first 6 months or as powerless as he was during his last?
See, it changes. That's what KvW didn't seem to get and why he didn't get the big picture right.
ComingAnarchy.com » Turkey Looks East
July 30, 2009
5:05 am