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	<title>Comments on: Which Came First: The Nation or the&#160;State?</title>
	<link>http://cominganarchy.com/2007/10/16/which-came-first-the-nation-or-the-state/</link>
	<description>Speak Victorian, Think Pagan</description>
	<pubDate>Fri, 21 Nov 2008 11:43:29 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Deciphering Transdniestria &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Could Transdniestria be the successful state prototype?</title>
		<link>http://cominganarchy.com/2007/10/16/which-came-first-the-nation-or-the-state/#comment-380540</link>
		<dc:creator>Deciphering Transdniestria &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Could Transdniestria be the successful state prototype?</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 22 Oct 2007 12:42:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://cominganarchy.com/2007/10/16/which-came-first-the-nation-or-the-state/#comment-380540</guid>
		<description>[...] successful states: Small, self-governing, and based on a shared idea, rather than mere ethnicity. Says Chirol from Coming Anarchy: Nowadays, the most successful states are arguably those who born from settler colonies, [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] successful states: Small, self-governing, and based on a shared idea, rather than mere ethnicity. Says Chirol from Coming Anarchy: Nowadays, the most successful states are arguably those who born from settler colonies, [...]</p>
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		<title>By: shane</title>
		<link>http://cominganarchy.com/2007/10/16/which-came-first-the-nation-or-the-state/#comment-380444</link>
		<dc:creator>shane</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 18 Oct 2007 02:23:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://cominganarchy.com/2007/10/16/which-came-first-the-nation-or-the-state/#comment-380444</guid>
		<description>While many (e.g., John Robb) decry the "decline of the nation-state", one thing that will preserve the nation-state's power base is its ownership of monetary policy.  Sure, multinational corporations can generate a bunch of revenue -- and transnational terror organizations can shift the security calculus and erode the nation-state's monopoly on use of military force.

That said, I believe continued globalization is inevitable -- and will result in more "melting pot", punctuated by periods of "nationalist backlash".</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>While many (e.g., John Robb) decry the &#8220;decline of the nation-state&#8221;, one thing that will preserve the nation-state&#8217;s power base is its ownership of monetary policy.  Sure, multinational corporations can generate a bunch of revenue&#8212;and transnational terror organizations can shift the security calculus and erode the nation-state&#8217;s monopoly on use of military force.</p>
<p>That said, I believe continued globalization is inevitable&#8212;and will result in more &#8220;melting pot&#8221;, punctuated by periods of &#8220;nationalist backlash&#8221;.</p>
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		<title>By: ComingAnarchy.com &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Superstates</title>
		<link>http://cominganarchy.com/2007/10/16/which-came-first-the-nation-or-the-state/#comment-380441</link>
		<dc:creator>ComingAnarchy.com &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Superstates</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 18 Oct 2007 00:16:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://cominganarchy.com/2007/10/16/which-came-first-the-nation-or-the-state/#comment-380441</guid>
		<description>[...] previous post on the dynamic between nation and state reminds me of this map from Strange [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] previous post on the dynamic between nation and state reminds me of this map from Strange [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Mihnea Dumitru</title>
		<link>http://cominganarchy.com/2007/10/16/which-came-first-the-nation-or-the-state/#comment-380436</link>
		<dc:creator>Mihnea Dumitru</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 Oct 2007 20:06:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://cominganarchy.com/2007/10/16/which-came-first-the-nation-or-the-state/#comment-380436</guid>
		<description>I don't personally think the nation state represents a valid concept in the age of globalization. No one chooses where he or she is born. So why should we fret whether we're born Armenians, Russians or Zulus? Culture's a different matter and that needs to be cherished. But nationhood is an eroding concept in my mind.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t personally think the nation state represents a valid concept in the age of globalization. No one chooses where he or she is born. So why should we fret whether we&#8217;re born Armenians, Russians or Zulus? Culture&#8217;s a different matter and that needs to be cherished. But nationhood is an eroding concept in my mind.</p>
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		<title>By: Curzon</title>
		<link>http://cominganarchy.com/2007/10/16/which-came-first-the-nation-or-the-state/#comment-380424</link>
		<dc:creator>Curzon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 Oct 2007 05:48:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://cominganarchy.com/2007/10/16/which-came-first-the-nation-or-the-state/#comment-380424</guid>
		<description>"one if the biggest and most overlooked questions of our century is that of identity"


really ? more than say in the early 20th century ?


RA: I think it's recognized more now, whereas back in the day we just recognized groups that were ruled by people not of the same nationality and locked on to the concept of "self determination."  The concept of "Identity" is probably better understood today and the debate on the topic is far broader.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;one if the biggest and most overlooked questions of our century is that of identity&#8221;</p>
<p>really ? more than say in the early 20th century ?</p>
<p>RA: I think it&#8217;s recognized more now, whereas back in the day we just recognized groups that were ruled by people not of the same nationality and locked on to the concept of &#8220;self determination.&#8221;  The concept of &#8220;Identity&#8221; is probably better understood today and the debate on the topic is far broader.</p>
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		<title>By: Lexington Green</title>
		<link>http://cominganarchy.com/2007/10/16/which-came-first-the-nation-or-the-state/#comment-380416</link>
		<dc:creator>Lexington Green</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 16 Oct 2007 22:06:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://cominganarchy.com/2007/10/16/which-came-first-the-nation-or-the-state/#comment-380416</guid>
		<description>Here's &lt;a href="http://anglosphere.com/weblog/archives/000346.html" rel="nofollow"&gt;Bennett's post&lt;/a&gt; on the subject.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Here&#8217;s <a href="http://anglosphere.com/weblog/archives/000346.html" rel="nofollow" onclick="javascript:urchinTracker ('/outbound/comment/anglosphere.com');">Bennett&#8217;s post</a> on the subject.</p>
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		<title>By: Lexington Green</title>
		<link>http://cominganarchy.com/2007/10/16/which-came-first-the-nation-or-the-state/#comment-380415</link>
		<dc:creator>Lexington Green</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 16 Oct 2007 22:03:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://cominganarchy.com/2007/10/16/which-came-first-the-nation-or-the-state/#comment-380415</guid>
		<description>England's daughter polities are &lt;a href="http://www.chicagoboyz.net/archives/004191.html" rel="nofollow"&gt;state-nations, not nation-states&lt;/a&gt;, as I mentioned in this earlier post, where I cited Chirol.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>England&#8217;s daughter polities are <a href="http://www.chicagoboyz.net/archives/004191.html" rel="nofollow" onclick="javascript:urchinTracker ('/outbound/comment/www.chicagoboyz.net');">state-nations, not nation-states</a>, as I mentioned in this earlier post, where I cited Chirol.</p>
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		<title>By: NYkrinDC</title>
		<link>http://cominganarchy.com/2007/10/16/which-came-first-the-nation-or-the-state/#comment-380410</link>
		<dc:creator>NYkrinDC</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 16 Oct 2007 18:53:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://cominganarchy.com/2007/10/16/which-came-first-the-nation-or-the-state/#comment-380410</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;Will we see more melting together? More nationalist backlash?&lt;/i&gt;

I think this depends largely on the history of the people involved. For example, if a particular group has been oppressed, as the chains loosen (be it through the collapse of a regime, or the result of Barnettian connectivity) they will likely seek some measure of autonomy from their former oppressors, if not outright independence. That’s part of what is going on in some parts of Africa, as countries transitioned from dictatorships to democratic governance different groups began to engage in a re-negotiation of the social contract that bound them together, sometimes seeking greater autonomy, others outright independence. Iraq can probably fit in this category as well, since although the turmoil resulted from American led regime change, the end state will likely be something along the lines of Biden-Gelb. 

In like manner, countries that have already dealt with these issues centuries earlier, such as Europe with Westphalia, are moving toward integration, even as they debate the future of immigrants in their midst. It is likely that there will be an even stronger nationalist backlash within the EU (more specifically within the older members such as France, England, Germany, etc.) which are trying to cope with processing the immigrant bulge. Although the tendency will initially be toward a nationalist reassertion, due to the porosity of EU borders and the integration that has taken place during the last half-century, the long-term trend will be toward acceptance and assimilation.

If looked at in Barnettian terms, the states that are likely to experience more turmoil and in some cases, disintegration, are likely to be found in the gap, while the states that will assimilate or integrate will be largely found in the core. Iraq is probably the first of many, with Turkey, Iran, Syria and Pakistan following thereafter. This of course, is largely dependent on what the impact Iraq and its enclaves will have on the region as a whole. Already, the Kurdish north is becoming an incubator of Kurdish nationalism and culture, further raising the possibility, of a larger conflagration over the future of a Kurdish state.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>Will we see more melting together? More nationalist backlash?</i></p>
<p>I think this depends largely on the history of the people involved. For example, if a particular group has been oppressed, as the chains loosen (be it through the collapse of a regime, or the result of Barnettian connectivity) they will likely seek some measure of autonomy from their former oppressors, if not outright independence. That&#8217;s part of what is going on in some parts of Africa, as countries transitioned from dictatorships to democratic governance different groups began to engage in a re-negotiation of the social contract that bound them together, sometimes seeking greater autonomy, others outright independence. Iraq can probably fit in this category as well, since although the turmoil resulted from American led regime change, the end state will likely be something along the lines of Biden-Gelb.</p>
<p>In like manner, countries that have already dealt with these issues centuries earlier, such as Europe with Westphalia, are moving toward integration, even as they debate the future of immigrants in their midst. It is likely that there will be an even stronger nationalist backlash within the <span class="caps">EU </span>(more specifically within the older members such as France, England, Germany, etc.) which are trying to cope with processing the immigrant bulge. Although the tendency will initially be toward a nationalist reassertion, due to the porosity of EU borders and the integration that has taken place during the last half-century, the long-term trend will be toward acceptance and assimilation.</p>
<p>If looked at in Barnettian terms, the states that are likely to experience more turmoil and in some cases, disintegration, are likely to be found in the gap, while the states that will assimilate or integrate will be largely found in the core. Iraq is probably the first of many, with Turkey, Iran, Syria and Pakistan following thereafter. This of course, is largely dependent on what the impact Iraq and its enclaves will have on the region as a whole. Already, the Kurdish north is becoming an incubator of Kurdish nationalism and culture, further raising the possibility, of a larger conflagration over the future of a Kurdish state.</p>
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		<title>By: random african</title>
		<link>http://cominganarchy.com/2007/10/16/which-came-first-the-nation-or-the-state/#comment-380408</link>
		<dc:creator>random african</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 16 Oct 2007 14:41:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://cominganarchy.com/2007/10/16/which-came-first-the-nation-or-the-state/#comment-380408</guid>
		<description>"one if the biggest and most overlooked questions of our century is that of identity"

really ? more than say in the early 20th century ?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;one if the biggest and most overlooked questions of our century is that of identity&#8221;</p>
<p>really ? more than say in the early 20th century ?</p>
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		<title>By: Coming Anarchy: Which came first, the nation or the state&#8230; &#171; Identity Unknown</title>
		<link>http://cominganarchy.com/2007/10/16/which-came-first-the-nation-or-the-state/#comment-380407</link>
		<dc:creator>Coming Anarchy: Which came first, the nation or the state&#8230; &#171; Identity Unknown</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 16 Oct 2007 13:54:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://cominganarchy.com/2007/10/16/which-came-first-the-nation-or-the-state/#comment-380407</guid>
		<description>[...] Oct 16th, 2007 by Ryan Lanham    Which Came First: The Nation or the State? [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Oct 16th, 2007 by Ryan Lanham    Which Came First: The Nation or the&#160;State? [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Adrian</title>
		<link>http://cominganarchy.com/2007/10/16/which-came-first-the-nation-or-the-state/#comment-380406</link>
		<dc:creator>Adrian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 16 Oct 2007 13:44:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://cominganarchy.com/2007/10/16/which-came-first-the-nation-or-the-state/#comment-380406</guid>
		<description>Did you see the recent media flap about Ashkan Dejagah's decision to refuse to play for the German U-21 national team in Israel?  An Iranian-German, apparently his family might face retribution if he visited Israel (against Iranian law), but some people think he was maintaining the chance to play for Iran's national team in the future.  I wrote about it on &lt;a href="http://a517dogg.blogspot.com/2007/10/ashkan-dejagahs-dilemma.html" rel="nofollow"&gt;my blog&lt;/a&gt;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Did you see the recent media flap about Ashkan Dejagah&#8217;s decision to refuse to play for the German U-21 national team in Israel?  An Iranian-German, apparently his family might face retribution if he visited Israel (against Iranian law), but some people think he was maintaining the chance to play for Iran&#8217;s national team in the future.  I wrote about it on <a href="http://a517dogg.blogspot.com/2007/10/ashkan-dejagahs-dilemma.html" rel="nofollow" onclick="javascript:urchinTracker ('/outbound/comment/a517dogg.blogspot.com');">my blog</a>.</p>
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