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Younghusband
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Younghusband

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October 10th, 2007

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Not that I’m comparing…

Georgia in Iraq

According to a recent article in the NY Times, Georgia — population 5m — has more than doubled its troop levels in Iraq from 850 to 2000. And those troops aren’t lollygagging about in a Halliburton pantry in the Green Zone. These boys are patrolling the Iraq-Iran border.

Now, look at Canada — population 34m — which has hit its limit of 2500 troops for Afghanistan and is considered to be “overstretched.” I know this may not be a fair comparison since I am unsure of how/why Georgians join their military (regardless of the 18 months of obligatory service). Yet somehow I still think that Canada could field a lot more than it is. Compare these stats from the CIA World Factbook:

Georgia manpower fit for military service (2005 est.):

  • males age 18-49: 827,281
  • females age 18-49: 903,791

Canada manpower fit for military service (2005 est.):

  • males age 16-49: 6,740,490
  • females age 16-49: 6,580,868

According to the Georgian defence ministry website Georgia has 26,902 soldiers (including 6873 conscripts) to Canada’s 62,000 Regular Force members. So why can’t Canada field more troops? There might be some institutional differences to be considered. For example when a Canadian soldier gets sent off for a 6 month rotation, first they have to go through 1.5 years of pre-deployment training. After deployment they return for 1~2 months of “decompression,” then finally they have to catchup on courses and training etc that was missed while deployed. A lot of planning goes into keeping a constant 2500 Canadians in the ‘Ghan. I wonder what the deployment cycle of the regular Georgian soldier is? I can only imagine… Regardless, I am certain there is some major room for improvement in the Canadian Forces.

Comments to this entry

Rommel
October 10, 2007
12:40 pm
I wonder if those Caucasian chaps will be sporting M4s in the near future..
Curzon
October 10, 2007
1:15 pm
Give Canada a break, it does have a waaaaaaaaaay bigger border than Georgia to defend, monitor and patrol (biggest in the world?).
Younghusband
October 10, 2007
2:07 pm
The longest "undefended" border in the world. The key point is that Canada simply does not have an "expeditionary" force. Whether or not it _should_ have one is currently the debate going on in the House as well as within the military and the general public.
University Update - Iraq - Not that I’m comparing…
October 10, 2007
2:47 pm
[...] House Not that I’m comparing… » This Summary is from an article posted at ComingAnarchy.com on Wednesday, October 10, 2007 [...]
random african
October 10, 2007
2:50 pm
What about Georgia wanting to be in NATO so badly that it would do anything to please the US ?
It's a bit funny that they're fighting Ossetia and Abkhazia wars by sending troops to Irak.
Jing
October 10, 2007
6:29 pm
Most of the coalition of the willing is having part or most or most likely all of it's deployment bill paid for by the U.S. In return for Georgia's troop contribution, the U.S. is essentially paying for all their equipment, training, transportation, and supply needs. Mongolia also has a similar arrangement I believe. The entire Georgian military expenditure is a measly 30 million USD per year, the cost of supporting their own force in Iraq would vastly exceed this figure.

I doubt that Canada is getting such a deal but rest assured all of the third world coalition members are. For them all they have to do is provide boots and the U.S. pays for the rest. In addition to the political perks from Uncle Sam, it is essentially free maintenance of their armed forces at very little political cost.
Younghusband
October 11, 2007
1:18 am
Good point Jing.

The Canadian military is considered "hollow" and "overstretched," but one more reason why it cannot commit more to military missions overseas is public opinion. This is related to the debate over expeditionary forces. I wonder how the Georgians feel about their military operating overseas? Does their opinion even matter?
Lexington Green
October 11, 2007
4:23 am
This essay about the demographic impact on warmaking capacity and willpower is fascinating, and I believe directly on point.
Georgian Soldiers Deploy on Iranian Border at Forward Deployed
October 11, 2007
9:53 am
[...] Coming Anarchy has an excellent post comparing the Georgian contribution in Iraq to Canada’s efforts in Afghanistan.  Good reading.  By the way, I always wondered what happened to all of our old DCUs we turned in after fielding our ACUs.  Good to see somebody is getting some use out of them.   Share This Popularity: 1% [...]
GI Korea
October 11, 2007
9:53 am
I think the other thing to keep in mind is capability. Canada has brought a lot to the fight in Afghanistan compared to other nations that contribute troops to either Iraq and Afghanistan and do very little like South Korea.

I rather have someone deploy less troops that are willing to fight like Canada or Australia than someone deploying large numbers of troops that do nothing.

It will be interesting to see if the Georgian troops are willing to vigorously intercept arms smuggling and put their troops at risk or if they will hide on base and be more concerned about force protection.
Curzon
October 11, 2007
11:41 am
Lex, that is indeed terrifying. Perhaps overly pessimistic-realist, but very worthy of consideration.
Dave Schuler
October 11, 2007
2:55 pm
A lack of options is a position of strength. Canada elects to spend less of its dough on its military. When asked to participate, not having the capability is a handy out.
Lexington Green
October 11, 2007
2:59 pm
Curzon, I agree.

There is something about the barebones minimalism of the argument, which seems so obvious and brutal.

It provoked a lively offline discussion. I am terribly busy lately, but I hope to blog about it.
Dave Schuler
October 11, 2007
3:00 pm
BTW, in re: the effects of demographics on warmaking capacity. We need to take that into account when evaluating whether China is actually a threat or not (I think not). In a country without social insurance and in which jobs are hard to come by for the elderly how eager are the old folks going to be to send the sole support of the family (who may or may not be able to find a bride due to the Planned Birth Policy) off to war?
tingbudong
October 12, 2007
2:10 pm
"how eager are the old folks going to be to send the sole support of the family"

I would argue, quite eager. A military profession in China still commands a high level of prestige and respect among peers, family and most importantly, the government. Keep in mind that the PLA adheres to a form that cannot be compared to western militaries (or other miitaries for that matter), a form that has some visualizing it akin to a company. There are immense benefits to be gained from a military career in China, both financially and expressed in terms of guanxi (relations). If not that, then it remains one of the only remaining 'iron rice bowl' occupations left in the P.R.C.

Even in the enlisted ranks,where pay remains poor, such a job can prove to be a stable position. Isn't that the most important aspect? Stability? In regards to a demographic shift, military employment possibly provide a saftey valve for the exact problems that are inherent with a large, young, mobile male population.

My two cents.
ComingAnarchy.com » Blog Archive » Quality versus quantity
November 22, 2007
1:00 am
[...] down. Canada refused to join America in Iraq because it couldn’t spare any more than the 2500 troops it deployed Afghanistan (which has “broken” our army). This is an interesting strategy that maintains alliances [...]
James
January 15, 2008
3:21 pm
Canada isn't going to send troops to die for American Oil in Iraq. Canada also isn't a nation devoted to war so why would we need a larger army (nobody is going to attack us anyway).
Michael Hancock
January 17, 2008
1:11 am
I would think that if any conventional military attack began on the United States, it is more likely to begin in or near Canada than anywhere else. I'm not saying it's likely that Canada is attacked, but I don't agree with the statement "nobody is going to attack Canada anyway"
Michael Hancock
January 17, 2008
1:29 am
I just read Whelton's article about Heinsohn's Demographic Theory of War.

Incredible and more than a little mind-blowing. It seems that it's weirdness comes more from its seeming obviousness, while being simultaneously shocking to the core.

I rather like the idea that the 'youth bulge' can be blamed for radical Islam - it's plausible and way nicer than thinking that people on the other side of the world can really hate America and Capitalist Christianity that much.
Aceface
January 17, 2008
5:39 am
Mongolian troop is completly under payroll from the U.S.

When I flew to Ulaanbaatar's Buyant Uhaa Airport(Now Chinghis Khan Airport)from Narita in 2004,I saw a gigantic U.S C-141 Starlifter at the runway.
The U.S even picks up these Mongolian boys and their equipments to the Afghanistan and Iraq.
Curzon
January 17, 2008
6:09 am
That is awesome -- the US even provides taxi service for all two dozen of the Mongol troops in the Middle East!
Aceface
January 17, 2008
6:26 am
As I remember a phrase from "Impreial Grunts";
"Col.Wilhelm was determined to make the descendants of Genghis Khan the 'peacekeeping Gurkhas'of the American empire."

They do just that.
I'd imagine Georgians are doing exactly the same thing and it is not at all surprising.
Remember how Turks were so ambitious about sending large scale of expeditionary forces to Korea during Korean war?
South Koreans in the Vietnam War?
The war in Iraq is a lot more better deal for both Ulaambaatar and Tbilisi than those wars.