Comments on: “I want my daughter to marry a foreigner”? http://cominganarchy.com/2007/08/13/%e2%80%9ci-want-my-daughter-to-marry-a-foreigner%e2%80%9d/ Speak Victorian, Think Pagan Mon, 15 Mar 2010 20:41:08 -0700 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.8.6 hourly 1 By: Tiu Fu Fong http://cominganarchy.com/2007/08/13/%e2%80%9ci-want-my-daughter-to-marry-a-foreigner%e2%80%9d/comment-page-1/#comment-377510 Tiu Fu Fong Wed, 15 Aug 2007 07:30:53 +0000 http://cominganarchy.com/2007/08/13/%e2%80%9ci-want-my-daughter-to-marry-a-foreigner%e2%80%9d/#comment-377510 Just relaying what was told to me. The statistics on the CS Monitor link don't support her proposition. Just relaying what was told to me. The statistics on the CS Monitor link don’t support her proposition.

]]> By: Jimm http://cominganarchy.com/2007/08/13/%e2%80%9ci-want-my-daughter-to-marry-a-foreigner%e2%80%9d/comment-page-1/#comment-377507 Jimm Wed, 15 Aug 2007 05:51:15 +0000 http://cominganarchy.com/2007/08/13/%e2%80%9ci-want-my-daughter-to-marry-a-foreigner%e2%80%9d/#comment-377507 "My gungfu sifu's wife did a thesis on the similarities and differences between women aged 25-35 in Hong Kong and Japan. In her research, she discovered that a substantial number of Japanese women travel to Hong Kong with the aim of finding a Hong Kong husband, as Hong Kong men are considered bastions of enlightenment compared to their Japanese male peers. From the Hong Kong male perspective, a Japanese woman is pretty subordinate compared to the typical pouting Cantonese princess, so the deal works well both ways. Probably largely a middle class/upper middle class phenomenon." I think none of this is likely true. I used to work with many Japanese men and women in HK, and they would often come out with slurs against the Chinese, unprovoked, and with no distinction made between HKers and mainlanders. Do more than 0.001% of marrying Japanese women marry an HKer? Doubt it. As much as HK likes to think it can impress its beloved Hello Kitty! provider (imitation being the sincerest form of flattery), it's far from true. “My gungfu sifu’s wife did a thesis on the similarities and differences between women aged 25-35 in Hong Kong and Japan. In her research, she discovered that a substantial number of Japanese women travel to Hong Kong with the aim of finding a Hong Kong husband, as Hong Kong men are considered bastions of enlightenment compared to their Japanese male peers. From the Hong Kong male perspective, a Japanese woman is pretty subordinate compared to the typical pouting Cantonese princess, so the deal works well both ways. Probably largely a middle class/upper middle class phenomenon.”

I think none of this is likely true. I used to work with many Japanese men and women in HK, and they would often come out with slurs against the Chinese, unprovoked, and with no distinction made between HKers and mainlanders.

Do more than 0.001% of marrying Japanese women marry an HKer? Doubt it. As much as HK likes to think it can impress its beloved Hello Kitty! provider (imitation being the sincerest form of flattery), it’s far from true.

]]> By: lirelou http://cominganarchy.com/2007/08/13/%e2%80%9ci-want-my-daughter-to-marry-a-foreigner%e2%80%9d/comment-page-1/#comment-377496 lirelou Wed, 15 Aug 2007 02:56:44 +0000 http://cominganarchy.com/2007/08/13/%e2%80%9ci-want-my-daughter-to-marry-a-foreigner%e2%80%9d/#comment-377496 Regarding the racial aspect. In much of East Asia, culture and language is what identifies a person's "nationality", though modern nationalism has introduced some anti-"foreigner" elements. China, as an empire, was composed of various peoples who all identified themselves as "Chinese". Likewise, Vietnam had enough Chinese immigration into the North and South to produce no small number of families with a Chinese ancestor. Those descendants of Chinese who became Vietnamese experienced no problems. Those who ran into problems after the Communist victory were families who had maintained their Chinese identities and had generally intermarried only within other Chinese families. Taiwan, with its present emphasis upon its multi-cultural past, should likewise be able to absorb a fair number of foreign wives bringing different tastes into their culture and cuisine. In all of these countries, a common confucian past and outlook make accomodation far easier than it otherwise might be. As for Korea and Japan, the two most "racially homogenous" coutries in East Asia, and the two whose languages differ the most from Mandarin, there are historical and cultural precedents of "foreign" Asians blending into their societies. Korea has one branch of the Li family that traces its origin back to a Le refugee who had fled Vietnam in the Mongol period, a distant Queen was from India, and Japanese history teaches that some of their islands were peopled by Malay-Polynesians before what became Japan emerged. In short, excepting Korean ultranationalists, most east Asians judge others to be whatever nationality they claim based upon culture and language. The idea that one is a "mongrel", or "Heinz 57", appears to be alien to East Asia. Assuming that the children of these foreign wives are raised to identify the dominant culture as their own, they should experience no difficulties in being accepted for what they are. Regarding the racial aspect. In much of East Asia, culture and language is what identifies a person’s “nationality”, though modern nationalism has introduced some anti-”foreigner” elements. China, as an empire, was composed of various peoples who all identified themselves as “Chinese”. Likewise, Vietnam had enough Chinese immigration into the North and South to produce no small number of families with a Chinese ancestor. Those descendants of Chinese who became Vietnamese experienced no problems. Those who ran into problems after the Communist victory were families who had maintained their Chinese identities and had generally intermarried only within other Chinese families. Taiwan, with its present emphasis upon its multi-cultural past, should likewise be able to absorb a fair number of foreign wives bringing different tastes into their culture and cuisine. In all of these countries, a common confucian past and outlook make accomodation far easier than it otherwise might be. As for Korea and Japan, the two most “racially homogenous” coutries in East Asia, and the two whose languages differ the most from Mandarin, there are historical and cultural precedents of “foreign” Asians blending into their societies. Korea has one branch of the Li family that traces its origin back to a Le refugee who had fled Vietnam in the Mongol period, a distant Queen was from India, and Japanese history teaches that some of their islands were peopled by Malay-Polynesians before what became Japan emerged. In short, excepting Korean ultranationalists, most east Asians judge others to be whatever nationality they claim based upon culture and language. The idea that one is a “mongrel”, or “Heinz 57″, appears to be alien to East Asia. Assuming that the children of these foreign wives are raised to identify the dominant culture as their own, they should experience no difficulties in being accepted for what they are.

]]> By: lirelou http://cominganarchy.com/2007/08/13/%e2%80%9ci-want-my-daughter-to-marry-a-foreigner%e2%80%9d/comment-page-1/#comment-377495 lirelou Wed, 15 Aug 2007 02:19:42 +0000 http://cominganarchy.com/2007/08/13/%e2%80%9ci-want-my-daughter-to-marry-a-foreigner%e2%80%9d/#comment-377495 Curzon, good point. And once we are back in the States in October, Madame will surely intensify her search for a suitable candidate. Curzon, good point. And once we are back in the States in October, Madame will surely intensify her search for a suitable candidate.

]]> By: Curzon http://cominganarchy.com/2007/08/13/%e2%80%9ci-want-my-daughter-to-marry-a-foreigner%e2%80%9d/comment-page-1/#comment-377491 Curzon Wed, 15 Aug 2007 01:32:24 +0000 http://cominganarchy.com/2007/08/13/%e2%80%9ci-want-my-daughter-to-marry-a-foreigner%e2%80%9d/#comment-377491 TFF: while that may occur, it is not common enough to be reflected in the statistics, and nothing compared to the number of older Japanese men marrying younger Chinese and Southeast Asian women. Check out the statistics, recently covered at this blog "here.":http://www.cominganarchy.com/2004/12/13/mixed-marriages-in-japan/ Lirelou: A visa is a real issue, but one option would be a fiance visa, which, once approved, gives you 90 days in the US to perform the marriage. TFF: while that may occur, it is not common enough to be reflected in the statistics, and nothing compared to the number of older Japanese men marrying younger Chinese and Southeast Asian women. Check out the statistics, recently covered at this blog here.

Lirelou: A visa is a real issue, but one option would be a fiance visa, which, once approved, gives you 90 days in the US to perform the marriage.

]]> By: Jing http://cominganarchy.com/2007/08/13/%e2%80%9ci-want-my-daughter-to-marry-a-foreigner%e2%80%9d/comment-page-1/#comment-377475 Jing Tue, 14 Aug 2007 12:50:34 +0000 http://cominganarchy.com/2007/08/13/%e2%80%9ci-want-my-daughter-to-marry-a-foreigner%e2%80%9d/#comment-377475 Most people do not seem to realize that the gender imbalance in China is a historical phenomenon. Polygamy in China was legal and it was not uncommon for a well to do man to have 2, 3, or even 4 wives. Those Chinese men who will not be able to find a marriage will be those at the very bottom of the socio-economic ladder, as has been in the past. The social effects, contrary from the doom and gloom prognostications of middle-brow intellectuals, will likely be impossible to distinguish from other social trends as the cause-effect relationship is far too complex to derive any linear correlation. Most people do not seem to realize that the gender imbalance in China is a historical phenomenon. Polygamy in China was legal and it was not uncommon for a well to do man to have 2, 3, or even 4 wives. Those Chinese men who will not be able to find a marriage will be those at the very bottom of the socio-economic ladder, as has been in the past.

The social effects, contrary from the doom and gloom prognostications of middle-brow intellectuals, will likely be impossible to distinguish from other social trends as the cause-effect relationship is far too complex to derive any linear correlation.

]]> By: Tiu Fu FOng http://cominganarchy.com/2007/08/13/%e2%80%9ci-want-my-daughter-to-marry-a-foreigner%e2%80%9d/comment-page-1/#comment-377471 Tiu Fu FOng Tue, 14 Aug 2007 08:37:30 +0000 http://cominganarchy.com/2007/08/13/%e2%80%9ci-want-my-daughter-to-marry-a-foreigner%e2%80%9d/#comment-377471 My gungfu sifu's wife did a thesis on the similarities and differences between women aged 25-35 in Hong Kong and Japan. In her research, she discovered that a substantial number of Japanese women travel to Hong Kong with the aim of finding a Hong Kong husband, as Hong Kong men are considered bastions of enlightenment compared to their Japanese male peers. From the Hong Kong male perspective, a Japanese woman is pretty subordinate compared to the typical pouting Cantonese princess, so the deal works well both ways. Probably largely a middle class/upper middle class phenomenon. My gungfu sifu’s wife did a thesis on the similarities and differences between women aged 25-35 in Hong Kong and Japan. In her research, she discovered that a substantial number of Japanese women travel to Hong Kong with the aim of finding a Hong Kong husband, as Hong Kong men are considered bastions of enlightenment compared to their Japanese male peers. From the Hong Kong male perspective, a Japanese woman is pretty subordinate compared to the typical pouting Cantonese princess, so the deal works well both ways. Probably largely a middle class/upper middle class phenomenon.

]]> By: lirelou http://cominganarchy.com/2007/08/13/%e2%80%9ci-want-my-daughter-to-marry-a-foreigner%e2%80%9d/comment-page-1/#comment-377468 lirelou Tue, 14 Aug 2007 07:26:42 +0000 http://cominganarchy.com/2007/08/13/%e2%80%9ci-want-my-daughter-to-marry-a-foreigner%e2%80%9d/#comment-377468 Madame Lirelou has an attractive 23 year old niece who she tries to match with every eligible bachelor who enters the house. Niece does not want to live in a dirt floor Mekong delta farm, and her only present other option is to become the second wife of a minor party official. If we could ever get her into the U.S., even as a tourist, she'd likely be married to a Vietnamese-American her own age within six months. But that seems as impossible as obtaining legal immigrant status. Madame Lirelou has an attractive 23 year old niece who she tries to match with every eligible bachelor who enters the house. Niece does not want to live in a dirt floor Mekong delta farm, and her only present other option is to become the second wife of a minor party official. If we could ever get her into the U.S., even as a tourist, she’d likely be married to a Vietnamese-American her own age within six months. But that seems as impossible as obtaining legal immigrant status.

]]> By: El Jefe Maximo http://cominganarchy.com/2007/08/13/%e2%80%9ci-want-my-daughter-to-marry-a-foreigner%e2%80%9d/comment-page-1/#comment-377450 El Jefe Maximo Mon, 13 Aug 2007 15:20:20 +0000 http://cominganarchy.com/2007/08/13/%e2%80%9ci-want-my-daughter-to-marry-a-foreigner%e2%80%9d/#comment-377450 Sounds like a disaster from both ends...families wanting their children to marry-up: and perceving that the only way to do so is to marry them to foreigners. What does that say about the relative health and self-confidence of the local society ? Then there are the local young men, who have their own opinions about the course of their societies, and the causes for it, who are now being priced out of the marriage market. Does not sound at all like a recipe for stability Sounds like a disaster from both ends…families wanting their children to marry-up: and perceving that the only way to do so is to marry them to foreigners. What does that say about the relative health and self-confidence of the local society ?

Then there are the local young men, who have their own opinions about the course of their societies, and the causes for it, who are now being priced out of the marriage market.

Does not sound at all like a recipe for stability

]]> By: Curzon http://cominganarchy.com/2007/08/13/%e2%80%9ci-want-my-daughter-to-marry-a-foreigner%e2%80%9d/comment-page-1/#comment-377447 Curzon Mon, 13 Aug 2007 14:40:22 +0000 http://cominganarchy.com/2007/08/13/%e2%80%9ci-want-my-daughter-to-marry-a-foreigner%e2%80%9d/#comment-377447 Great comments from both you guys, thanks. Dan, while age difference between spouses is ancient, the ethnic phenomenon -- i.e. lots of Korean men with southeast Asian wives, Thai women with Swiss husbands -- is a new angle, no? Has this type of ethnic divide occurred on any similar scale before? Chief, these are all real questions that we should be concerned about. China is one obvious example. So is India. And in Thailand, many women leave for places such as Japan and Korea to marry foreign man, and many who stay marry foreign men. This may have a real impact on the social and political stability of these countries in the near future. Great comments from both you guys, thanks.

Dan, while age difference between spouses is ancient, the ethnic phenomenon — i.e. lots of Korean men with southeast Asian wives, Thai women with Swiss husbands — is a new angle, no? Has this type of ethnic divide occurred on any similar scale before?

Chief, these are all real questions that we should be concerned about. China is one obvious example. So is India. And in Thailand, many women leave for places such as Japan and Korea to marry foreign man, and many who stay marry foreign men. This may have a real impact on the social and political stability of these countries in the near future.

]]> By: Chief Wiggum http://cominganarchy.com/2007/08/13/%e2%80%9ci-want-my-daughter-to-marry-a-foreigner%e2%80%9d/comment-page-1/#comment-377445 Chief Wiggum Mon, 13 Aug 2007 14:23:13 +0000 http://cominganarchy.com/2007/08/13/%e2%80%9ci-want-my-daughter-to-marry-a-foreigner%e2%80%9d/#comment-377445 There's been quite a bit written recently about social instability contributed to by young men not having access to women, due to polygyny and social mores. Frustrated young men are thought to be more susceptible to the lure of having 72 virgins in paradise than a married man with a family. Access to virgins in paradise is a recruiting tool used by jihadist groups. What will become of the tens of millions of Chinese men who will not be able to have wives due to the absence of Chinese women. Will there be polyandry or prison-style homosexuality? Brothels on a massive scale? There’s been quite a bit written recently about social instability contributed to by young men not having access to women, due to polygyny and social mores. Frustrated young men are thought to be more susceptible to the lure of having 72 virgins in paradise than a married man with a family. Access to virgins in paradise is a recruiting tool used by jihadist groups.

What will become of the tens of millions of Chinese men who will not be able to have wives due to the absence of Chinese women. Will there be polyandry or prison-style homosexuality? Brothels on a massive scale?

]]> By: Dan tdaxp http://cominganarchy.com/2007/08/13/%e2%80%9ci-want-my-daughter-to-marry-a-foreigner%e2%80%9d/comment-page-1/#comment-377442 Dan tdaxp Mon, 13 Aug 2007 13:46:00 +0000 http://cominganarchy.com/2007/08/13/%e2%80%9ci-want-my-daughter-to-marry-a-foreigner%e2%80%9d/#comment-377442 On a more local scale, this difference in ages between husbands and waves has been happening since prehistory and the emergence of pair-bonding. At the same time, we have the fact that the most recent universal male ancestor is far, far more recent than the most recent universal female ancestor. The obvious implication is that males are under much greater selection pressure, as it would seem they mate later but have a more recent ancestor. On a more local scale, this difference in ages between husbands and waves has been happening since prehistory and the emergence of pair-bonding. At the same time, we have the fact that the most recent universal male ancestor is far, far more recent than the most recent universal female ancestor. The obvious implication is that males are under much greater selection pressure, as it would seem they mate later but have a more recent ancestor.

]]>