Entry details

Curzon
Author

Curzon

Date

March 17th, 2007

Tags

,

Comments

44 Comments so far.
Add yours.

China’s Ambitions

China isn’t looking to replace U.S., prime minister says

Prime Minister Wen Jiabao of China said Friday that his country was still struggling to overcome major obstacles to its internal development and would not seek to disrupt the world order dominated by the United States.

In a news conference broadcast live on national television, Wen deflected a series of questions about China’s rising financial and military power and its fast-growing emissions of the gases that are thought to contribute to climate change. He argued that China remained a developing country that must study the experiences of richer nations, and that the country would always act responsibly on the world stage.

Wen stressed that his focus remained squarely on overcoming what he termed “hidden crises” that threaten to undermine China’s economy, which, he said, remained “unbalanced, uncoordinated, unstable and unsustainable,” even as it grew rapidly. He said the country must also address the “overconcentration of power” that has fueled rampant corruption, and that it must do more to help the poor.

By and large, having traveled over much of China, I agree with the Prime Minister. China has a long, long way to go before it truly stands to rival the US as a superpower, on every level imaginable. However, I have two primary concerns that were also addressed: the Chinese military and freedom of speech. First, on defense:

China’s official defense budget for 2007 rose 18 percent to $45.3 billion, continuing a decade-long streak of double-digit increases. China’s defense budget in 2007 exceeds that of Japan and is fast approaching budgeted levels of defense spending in Britain and France, the largest military spenders after the United States.

Asked to explain China’s recent firing of an anti-satellite missile that successfully destroyed one of China’s own defunct satellites in space, Wen answered obliquely. He stressed that the test — which he referred to as “an experiment in outer space” rather than the firing of a ground-based ballistic missile into space — was aimed at no other country. “China’s position on the peaceful utilization of outer space remains unchanged,” he said.

Someone should tell their military. As for freedom of speech, once again, the evidence speaks for itself:

Wen appeared to be caught off guard when asked about the political views of Zhao Ziyang, a late leader of the Communist Party who was purged after he opposed the use of force to quell dissent during the 1989 democracy protests in Beijing. Zhao’s thoughts on democracy and political reform were the subject of a book published in January in Hong Kong by a longtime confidant of the former leader, who died in 2005. Though Wen once worked for Zhao, he answered the question tersely. “I have not read this book,” he said. The book is banned in mainland China.

And although Wen’s news conference was carried live on Chinese television, all references to Zhao were subsequently struck from the official transcript of the news conference and edited out of a Webcast of the session.

What do readers think of the China’s future? As the stock market slumps and military spending rises, what should we expect China to look like in 2010, just three years away; and further in the future, in 2020?

Comments to this entry

Joe
March 17, 2007
5:55 am
China has a long, long way to go before it truly stands to rival the US as a superpower, on every level imaginable.
Not if the US continues its slide downward to ever more closely resemble China...
Curzon
March 17, 2007
11:23 am
Mr. J: While I agree with you in theory, do you see evidence of such a downward slide?
sunbin
March 17, 2007
11:42 am
US has a long, long way to slide before it truly stands to closely resemble China, on every level imaginable.
subadei
March 17, 2007
5:08 pm
How exactly is the US sliding toward that of China?
ElamBend
March 17, 2007
5:29 pm
China will go through boom busts similar to the U.S. in the 19th century. How they weather those cycles (like the U.S. or like latin America) is to be determined. They have not had to go through a true recession in atleast 15 years, but this year may be it.

One of the key underpinnings of the social order in the 'new' China has been the belief by aspiring Chinese in the cities that anyone can get weathier, so what does it matter that the CCP rules. If a recession hits and they see the corrupt still getting wealthy, the CCP will find itself in a harder to justify position. So far their anti-corruption has been against 'outsiders' and not against the princes. That being said, the PM's frankness on the structural weakness of China's economy is interesting. I'd love to hear a western politician with that kind of understanding (and frankness) on the health of a national economy.

As for the military, they seem to me to be a wild card. Are the PLA and the CCP two different power structures? Because they seem to be working at cross-purposes sometimes and I'm not always sure the CCP knows what the PLA is up to. The PLA seems even more conservative than the CCP.
China Law Blog
March 17, 2007
7:41 pm
China in 2010 will look just like now, but a bit wealthier. 2020 will be even wealthier still (but still huge pockets of poverty), but also more democratic.
ElamBend
March 17, 2007
9:20 pm
CLB,
I hope you are right, but heed the words of the PM. There are severe structural problems in the Chinese economy and although the rule of property and contract law is coming along; it is still subverted by the well-connected. That corruption plus an economic downturn doesn't not alwasy put pressure for democratic reform on ruling parties. Even if it did, the PLA might not go along.
By all means, though, let's hope for 1000 years of prosperity.
Eddie
March 17, 2007
9:36 pm
I eagerly await the chance to read James Mann's "The China Fantasy" where he explores (among other scenarios including a "chaotic collapse", etc.) a "Third Option" outlining how China's current prosperity and growth could continue, but its political system would not, primarily because China's growing middle class could be considered largely opposed to full democracy because the poor majority would threaten their gains and privileges.

Also, recently, VP Cheney has led the charge for India to join the defense triumvirate of Japan, America & Australia. If India joins, I doubt China will view this apparent enclosing of their interests with a quiet acceptance. The US seems increasingly schizophrenic in its dealings with China, and this will not be good for the long-term interests of either country or their neighbors.
Dr. Alfred Russel Wallace
March 17, 2007
11:03 pm
Don't forget that James Bond movie, with the evil "Dirty Digger' character trying to foment war between East and West. I think we all need to stay wide awake, but also not take things too seriously... China may be too big for a smooth transition to prosperity, but we should try and give it some leeway to weather internal storms...
Tuor
March 18, 2007
1:40 am
China will grow for ten more years then go through a period of internal strife. If they managed to create a system of rule of law I will change this prognosis, otherwise I expect growing corruption and inadequate income distribution to take their eventual toll. To democratize would be just about the worst thing for China to do right now.
davesgonechina
March 18, 2007
5:13 am
@Curzon: "As the stock market slumps and military spending rises, what should we expect China to look like in 2010, just three years away; and further in the future, in 2020?"

Well, the Chinese stock markets don't really mean anything for China. If there's a global slump, the China will get less FDI and that will affect growth. I'm with CLB that it won't look terribly different.

@Joe: personally I think the US has slid towards China on civil liberties and corruption, but I agree with Sun Bin its a long long way off.

@Eddie: ""Third Option"Â? outlining how China's current prosperity and growth could continue, but its political system would not"

I think you mean the political system WOULD continue, which is Mann's thesis. He argues China will continue growing while remaining an authoritarian system.
Joe
March 18, 2007
7:24 am
I was not only referring to encroaching state domination and corruption, but also to the growing income disparities and the declining quality of life for most people. As yuppies we have to force ourselves to watch it, but it's very disheartening.

Yes, it will be a long time before the US is as bad as China is now, and a long time before China is as good as the US is now, but I wonder whether it will be so long before the US and China meet in the middle.
Dan tdaxp
March 18, 2007
4:35 pm
No offense intended towards anyone, but Joe's comments are perfectly representative of the reason I stopped reading CA's threads.

It's hard to think of a comment more stylish or empty than Joe's, which is why it makes such a good example.

His original comment isn't even a sentence (the elipses indicates it's half a thought cut-off). Bumper-stick slogan style politics at its mindless worst.

His second comment gives a litany of context-free criticisms that don't hold together. For instance.

"state domination" - how? As a percentage of GDP? As measured by economic regulations? Some concern over patriot act lack of confidentially against the government? What?

"corruption" - again, how measured? Meaning what? Systemic corruption? Government corruption? General displeasure at the nature of political appointees in the Bush administration?

"growing income disparities" - a real concern, but seemingly out of place given the rest of what is said. Income disparity is a product of quick economic growth, and so doesn't gell with a concern over American economic decline to Chinese levels. (Indeed, decreasing income inequality would be a better clue of that.) Further, listing an element where both China and America are growing doesn't fit in with a view of American decline matching a Chinese ascent.

"Declining Quality of Life for Most People" - ? It would seem that Joe either means "a quality of life increasing too slowly for the bottom fifty percent" or "a declining quality of life for the bottom fifteen percent." Both of these are honest concerns. What is Joe talking about?

So, in conclusion: Curzon, Chirol, Younghusband, you have a great blog. But the quality of the comments have fallen sharply in the past two years. They are not worth reading anymore.

And I don't mean to pick on Joe: his clear writing style merely made his comment a great example of the intellectually emptiness of too much of the discussion here.
Dave Schuler
March 18, 2007
4:57 pm
I agree wholeheartedly with Curzon's base post.

I also sincerely hope that China is able to overcome its own internal contradictions that I suspect will become increasingly troublesome for them. Curzon has mentioned two in his post: the military and civil liberties.

The Chinese military is rather obviously primarily intended for maintaining internal order but, as Curzon notes, nobody has told the Chinese military that yet.

Other problems include environmental policy and the interplay between social policy and the lack of any reliable method of saving.
Tuor
March 18, 2007
5:07 pm
"The Chinese military is rather obviously primarily intended for maintaining internal order"

?

The Chinese military has been investing rather heavily in submarines, anti-satellite weaponry, information warfare, and missles pointed towards Taiwan. Also, if the military is needed to maintain internal order, what does that tell you about the stability of that internal order in the first place.
Joe
March 18, 2007
6:27 pm
This is not a quantitative analysis. It's a qualitative analysis. The numbers can be viewed in so many different ways that I don't waste my intellectual time picking through them. (Not to mention that Chinese numbers are BS--the bureaucrats basically admit to skewing them to win political brownie points.)

I'm just making observations here. Come to Miami or Philadelphia or the poorer countryside of the Carolinas sometime and you'll see what I mean. If that's not intellectual enough for you, you can go fuck yourself with a World Almanac.
Eddie
March 18, 2007
6:50 pm
Apologies Dave. I rushed through that comment and didn't check it like I should have.

Its interesting that he apparently qualifies most of what we see as democratic "progress" as mere window dressing by the government. As he obviously points out, this turns most of the assumptions our policies are based on upside down. The American and international public reaction to the government having to bear its teeth so to speak in response to a serious domestic threat would be most interesting in the aftermath of this.
Eddie
March 18, 2007
7:08 pm
The US is in decline across the board (certainly not permanent decline though, not yet). Anyone who dresses up flame wars or theory babble to deny it is a danger to themselves and their future.

We have had utterly politically and morally bankrupt leadership for the past 2 administrations. We have lost our bearings as a country in our embrace of the pursuit of "happyness" at the expense of our civic and social responsibilities, the juvenile detention centers that are our inner-city schools, the debacle that is our healthcare system, the intellectual and political rot among our political and military elites (like the traitor JCS this week who found it suitable to denounce 65,000 of his own troops for "immorality" while supporting the use of torture and toleration for ethnic cleansing as US policies), the ignored decay of our physical infrastructure and the fact that a US citizen (Jose Padilla) has been detained, held in solitary confinement and likely tortured by the USG for the past 4 years against all of his Constitutional rights with nary a peep from anyone.

The solution to all these problems and more exist across the board from certain posts of TDAXP to Newt Gingrich, Tony Zinni & Mike Davis. Yet they are and will continue to be largely ignored by the elites and the masses, because we are all prey to simplistic narratives and the determination of leaders who refuse to ask Americans to sacrifice anything in the name of progress or repair.

The general decline in the comment sections in blogs (from Kevin Drum to Thomas PM Barnett) is representative of the close-mindedness and lazy thought processes that this kind of political and social climate engenders. Nevertheless, I continue to visit CA not only for its exceptional trinity of authors but because it retains some top-notch commenters from Lirelou to Davesgonechina.
von Kaufman-Turkestansky
March 18, 2007
9:42 pm
I really don't how the comments on this blog are any worse than on other similar blogs. If anything they are more insightful. It is interesting because not everybody shares the same broad opinions, but they often seem able to engage in meaningful dialogue. Huzzah to CA!
Joe
March 18, 2007
11:12 pm
The comments on this blog *are* better than most blogs, which is why we all keep commenting here. It's not just because we like the sound of our own typing.

I reckon tdaxp is just having a bad day. If he really is going to leave the comment sections, it would be a loss for all of us.

Eddie> Simplistic narratives are just the MO of political consultants these days. The problem is that it's psychologically effective for their particular goals: fund-raising from the core constituents to fund advertising targeting the undecideds with the same tired lines.

No high-profile politicians have the balls to kick the consultants out of the room, and as a result our country's top-level political debate is just that handful of watered-down themes repeated over and over. It's dishonest because dishonesty works.

I wonder what you mean by "sacrifice," though. Politicians don't seem to mind asking us to sacrifice our tax dollars or high school graduates for whatever hare-brained scheme is on their agenda...

Anyway, I agree that the decline may not be permanent. My original comment was only extrapolating the trends I see today. I think that many Americans forget that large geographic and demographic pockets of their own country are effectively part of the Gap, and that those problems are not being effectively addressed by the people in charge. It's the elephant in the room, so to speak. We have no problems seeing the elephants in China but we forget the elephants in the US.
snow
March 19, 2007
3:17 am
I'm sceptical of claims that the US is in serious decline (as of yet). There are some serious dangers, such as with the US dollar and China's large holdings of it. We are at risk of China being able to hurt the US if it sold off large amounts of their foreign holdings, but the Chinese know that if the US went down (into recession) it would affect them very much, so there is a kind of balance between the two currently. The Chinese know they need the US and the US knows the Chinese have them by the balls to some degree.

There seems to be a bit of a meltdown starting in the US in terms of the real estate subprime market and some analysts say this is only a prelude to further problems, but I really am sceptical about those who claim things are generally worse across the board. The US is less free than in the past? Ridiculous. I grew up in the 70s and 80s and there is no comparison to what is available and even acceptable in society nowadays. If anything, there is a strong streak of political correctness, that is, in my opinion, a step backwards, but certainly, a person can certainly say alot more in public than in the past. What can't you say nowadays?

At the same time, I really find it hard to believe that most people are worse off than in the past. I remember when the idea of owning your own home was like a fantasy. My mother finally bought her first home when she was in her late 30s and she had a good job. Nowadays, people with no money can buy a house in certain areas (a friend sold his father's place an hour outside a Canadian city for a $1,000 recently). People can get work and find work, if they want it. I remember how difficult it was in the past looking for work, even the lowest paying crap was a struggle to get. Immigrants are probably having difficulties, but that's to be expected when someone is new to a country. Some people are likely struggling with the skyrocketing real estate prices (still going up in Canada), but jobs are available. And what would anyone propose to hold down real estate prices? Market solutions only, please.

As for the patriot act, we've joined European nations in having a relatively strong security act. The Europeans have had to deal with terrorism for a long time and put in similar measures long before the US did. The French have not said much about our supposedly extreme measures because theirs are at least as stringent. The Germans also have strong security measures as do the Brits.

If anything, the US is in a difficult position on many fronts, but it still could come through (hopefully) and carry on its relative success streak in most areas. The US faces some severe problems financially and could tip into a nasty recession, and if things don't improve in Iraq, or worse, if they cut and run, it could be another nail in the coffin of US military supremacy (it could be another indicator of sliding US military power, in other words). If the US can't even 'win' in Iraq, do they have the political will to win any other wars in the future or will we delude ourselves into thinking that war is no longer necessary, no matter what the threat? The direction that Iraq takes could portend a downturn in what we can accomplish on a geopolitical scale. It could even be the forerunner of a serious dimishing in our overall power in the world.

At the same time, I don't think China will want to take over from the US, at least not for a long time, until the US is no longer useful to China. Now China needs an open US market and the US is such a powerful engine for the world economy that anyone wishing to see the US decline is in effect hoping for a decline in the world economy.
Jing
March 19, 2007
3:49 am
I'll second CLB.

China in 2010 will probably be much like China today. Except 30% wealthier.

2020 is naturally is naturally a far harder projection to make because of more variables. Socially and economically speaking, it will be safe to say that China will be "free-er". Politically I expect the Communist Party to still wield control as much as it does today.

p.s. I've come to despise the term "internal contradiction" when discussing China. I have begun to realize that it is really an awful, terrible, horrible, simply bad term that doesn't really mean anything. There is no such thing as a contradiction, only an incomplete understanding or inaccurate interpretation of the facts. Thats just my personal peeve speaking of course.
Strategist
March 19, 2007
8:47 am
People often talk about China as being either destined for total collapse and civil war, or total economic stability, prosperity and growth. In my view the former is possible, the latter a pipe dream. My pick is that in 2020 we will see an arrangement that is more complex, interesting and dangerous.

For example: pockets of wealth and high technology (littoral cities and their hinterlands) and swathes of devastated and depopulated landscapes; regions under tight central control, and regions that answer primarily to local tyrants; an expansionist CCP-directed foreign policy (fuelled primarily by the drive for foreign oil and minerals), and littoral cities and provinces effectively running their own foreign and trade policies to suit their particular circumstances. Beijing will still be strong, but a great deal of power will have flowed to other centres, organizations and individuals.
davesgonechina
March 19, 2007
9:34 am
@Eddie: thanks for the compliment.

I would agree with Mann about the window dressing insofar as any steps China has taken towards making the government primarily an elected body of representatives. In that sense, there's nothing really happening, and I don't expect it to change quickly or any time soon. More importantly, I think the key point to remember in encouraging such change is that the Chinese public, never mind the govt, is extremely sensitive to any other nation, especially the US, telling it how to organize its own society. That means that there's a high likelihood that many tactics to encourage such changes will backfire, and simply result in more support to the Chinese govt from a nationalist-leaning polity.

On the other hand, as far as civil liberties in China, I do think that the Internet and growing wealth (for some) is transforming what people can do without facing censorship or punishment, simply because the government just can't control it all.

The key myth that US policy centers around, however, is that Tiananmen Square expressed the true desires of the Chinese people, which have been repressed and will one day resurface. I don't think that's true; Tiananmen has become such a massive symbol for Americans re: China but its misleading to think it is a key to understanding China today.
davesgonechina
March 19, 2007
9:41 am
@Strategist: in some ways all that happened already, starting easily a decade ago. I don't think there will be centrifugal forces tearing China apart, precisely because its not in anyones best interest. Those local tyrants may break or bend the rules, but they won't rebel when they ultimately need a central government to prosper in the first place. The independent republic of Guangdong would just have way too many problems for it to be worth it.
Strategist
March 19, 2007
10:30 am
davesgonechina - yes, I was going to add something like "these trends have been visible for some time" - perhaps it's a case of trends becoming more pronounced. I don't think that we will see provinces seceding (the 'Independent Republic of Guangdong' idea), for a number of reasons, or for that matter local tyrants openly defying the writ of the CCP. It's more an issue of power growing in other centres, but without open challenge to CCP rule. This of course will make dealing with China(s) a very complex business, whether you are a businessman, diplomat or politician.
Ben
March 19, 2007
12:07 pm
I am surprised nobody has brought up the area in which China lags furthest behind the United States, and that is education. From primary school, through Ph. D programs, the Chinese education system is a cycle of test taking and certifications which engrains students with the knowledge of reproduction and memorization, without teaching them the skills that will be necessary for China to truly advance creatively and technologically. Not to mention of course, nobody fails...take it from somebody who spent 2 years teaching in a Chinese university.
Joe
March 19, 2007
6:12 pm
Well, Ben, that's exactly the same thing they say about education in Japan, and nobody complains about them lagging.

The economic arguments here are all very sound, I think, but nobody has really brought the military into the picture. Is it just a tool for protecting the economic determinist miracle, or is it something that's going to get in the way? I'm curious to hear from the China experts on this...
Sonagi
March 19, 2007
11:55 pm
Joe wrote:

"If that's not intellectual enough for you, you can go fuck yourself with a World Almanac."

I was going to write that utterances like that one really drag down the comment section, but it wouldn't be fair to tarnish the otherwise civil comments here.

Sunbin wrote:

"US has a long, long way to slide before it truly stands to closely resemble China, on every level imaginable."

Sunbin is right. The Chinese government estimates that it will take 50 years for China's economy to reach the level of Taiwan's and Korea's and an additional 30 years to reach fully developed status.
lirelou
March 20, 2007
12:36 am
The Economist's view of several years ago was that if development continued apace, China could expect to reach economic parity with the U.S. sometime between 2041 and 2050. A later Economist article on China noted that there was a noticeable cycle of serious disruptions every 60 years or so. The Chinese military was, at the start of their economic rise, that largest military museum in the world. As expected, improved economic performance has bled over into the military sphere, with serious programs to upgrade their defence establishment. In itself, that is to be expected, however mauch to that upgrade has been in force projection capabilities. Many Asian blog watchers note a hard nationalist edge to the few Chinese commenters who do us the courtesy of showing up on the blogs. If that is indicative of the Chinese population as a whole, there is reason for concern that the rise of China to its rightful place in the world could bring with it a jingoistic militarism similar to that which launched Japan on the road to WWII. At present the U.S. is obliged by treaty to assist in the defence of Taiwan's independence. Taiwan may not be within the average American's frame of reference, but it does possess strategic maritime importance in that it allows any submarines based there immediate access to deep ocean. This obscure fact could make it worth honoring that treaty if the alternative is Taiwan's occupation by a hostile and aggressive China. Taiwan could end up being the serious "bump in the road" that derails a peaceful rise by China.
elambend
March 20, 2007
2:52 am
Lirelou,
Absolutely. Add to that that the CCP doesn't seem to have full control of the military. Any kind of economic downturn such as is normal and cyclical with any country, particularly one developing at China's pace can cause upheaval. One sure way to harness that upheaval away from the central power is to focus upon an external enemy and the PLA has an obvious jones for Taiwanl. I think the leadership of the CCP would prefer to avoid war, I don't think the PLA cares as much.

Though I am confident in China's longterm prospects, it will have to go through the business cycle like any other country. Keep in mind that last year there were more skyscrapers built in Shanghai than all of Manhatten. This kind of rapid development lends itself to boom-bust cycles. The US is almost certain to go through a recession in the next twelve months. The effect on the Chinese could be twofold: an economic slowdown because American consumers are purchasing less goods & a deflation of their reserves because the dollar falls. It could be short and just a blip, but they haven't had to weather a downturn yet since the great expansion began.

The PLA has its own economic base and could really represent a separate power structure should it lose faith in the CCP.

Joe et al,
As for a general decline of the U.S. I think the general youth of the commentors (me included) lead us to discount just how bad it was in the 1970's, or in times of double-digit interest rates in the early eighties. But the late seventies, I shudder at the thought.
Tuor
March 20, 2007
5:45 am
Lirelou, elambend,

Excellent posts. I expect China will continue to grow for about another 8-10 years before things start to deteriorate internally. I also am optimistic about the long-term prospects, although not without this period of massive internal readjustment, which I expect will have a large religious component.

Elam, what makes you think the US will enter into a recession in the next twelve months? I am not so confident, although things must be bad if the Economist runs articles on the economic system as a giant Ponzi scheme.

Also, do either of you post elsewhere? I run a forum that is always looking for new members.
Tuor
March 20, 2007
7:59 am
Sorry, let me revise that to 5-8 years
davesgonechina
March 20, 2007
8:40 am
@Elambend: "Add to that that the CCP doesn't seem to have full control of the military."

I'm curious what you base this on. I'm not convinced the anti-satellite test was done without Beijing's approval, and I don't think the PLA has any interest in usurping the Party's power. As Willy Lam has pointed out, Hu Jintao is concerned about PLA units circumventing orders from the CMC or the Party, but it seems centered around graft and corruption, not any interests in breaking away from the Party during a period of social unrest. The PLA does still have its own economic assets, but Jiang Zemin insisted they sell a great deal off in 1998.
elambend
March 20, 2007
6:24 pm
@Dave,
All valid points. I don't see the PLA or CCP as separate power bases at this point, however the PLA has a tradition of independence from the CCP that could lead it to split. Jiang's moves were important, but incomplete. Also, if you look at the PLA and CCP as a single power structure, all the liberalizing thoughts within that structure come from the CCP, as far as I can tell. There are hardliners in the CCP also, but the PLA seems to be all hardliners. I fear this has the potential for problems should the CCP liberalize too fast or not react 'correctly' during economic troubles. But, admittedly it is conjecture.

@Tuor,
Economic indicators seem to show an economy slowing down. Consumer spending for the last quarter was down, below expectations. We've just been through a long boom, fueled by a pretty big bubble in the real estate market. Although sub-prime loans are only 7-8% of all loans, the failure of a couple of sub-prime lenders could effect other lenders, particularly if they make their lending parameters stricter [I'm a RE developer - fun year for me].

Recessions are a natural part of the business cycle and we are certainly due, truth be told, though I expected it already; so I am an imperfect economic prognosticator.
Michael
March 20, 2007
8:59 pm
@Dan
Have you been to Slate's Fray? Trust me, this place is MILD. . .
Seriously, though, to the extent CA gets more harshly partisan commenters than others in this circle of blogs, it's probably because they take on more controversial subjects and- unlike Dr Barnett- don't moderate the heck out of the site.
Jing
March 20, 2007
10:51 pm
The PLA has no such tradition of "independence" from the party. To quote Mao, all political power stems from the barrel of the gun. The Party has a complete monopoly on control of the armed forces and that isn't likely to change anytime soon. The military reforms introduced have been to "professionalize" it by expanding the NCO corps, increasing officer training, divesting possible economic conflicts of interest, and limiting the influence the military in creating foreign policy. None of these however involves any type of relinquishing of control by the Party. Any general disobeying an order from the party is a stones throw away from an early retirement of the lead variety (well actually PLA ammunition uses steel core but I digress).

The problem with so much China analysis in the west is that so few people know anything credible about China, so few people have a command of the language, and so many are willing to throw common sense out the window in the face of grand narratives. The problem is compounded by the fact that the same narratives end up being repeated over and over again even if incorrect simply because few people have the resources at hand to delve deeper. Honestly sometimes it's like listening to a blind man confidently describing what a rainbow looks like.
elambend
March 21, 2007
12:23 am
Couldn't the PLA be the organ of hardliners in the CCP to overwhelm the liberals?

The political factions within the PLA are far less fractured than within the CCP. Power does come from the barrel of the gun and the military holds it. Mao used his power over the PLA to ignore then subvert the power of the party central commity. Throughout China's history military forces have been the source of splintering.

As I stated above, it's merely conjecture based upon what limited resources I can observe. The discussion is half the fun.

Critiques of my thoughts taken openly, how do you see China in 10 and 20 years? What problems might it face?

I defer to your expertise.
davesgonechina
March 21, 2007
7:11 am
@Elambend: I would argue that PLA members, if they are indeed hardliners, are so precisely because they are the military. I think pointing to China's military being a source of "splintering" is misleading, as is pointing to a cyclical history of peasant rebellions. It ignores the vast changes that modernity, particularly nationalism, have wrought in China's political culture. It suggests that political actors in China still think in terms of who has the mandate of Heaven in literal terms, instead of at most using it as an after-the-fact metaphor for ultimately realist thinking. The Pentagon spends alot of time thinking about a possible war with China, and doesn't put alot into economic or diplomatic solutions, or opine about changing the civilian government of the US. Why? It's not their job. It's not the PLAs either. After the catastrophes of the 20th century, it'd take a helluva disaster for the PLA to consider such a potentially destabilizing move as leveraging its power to determine the evolution of the government or influencing the ascension of a new leadership.

I also feel that talking about the PLA as the organ for hardliners against liberals is oversimplifying. In the early 90s, when Jiang Zemin was attempting to consolidate power against the old leftist guard, the military was not a tool for infighting within Zhongnanhai (as far as I know). They were not part of the debate, except perhaps when it came to discussing the military budget.

China in ten/twenty years? Further economic integration with Taiwan, a growing backoffice sector, continued economic inequality with an across the board modest increase in income, increased emigration abroad, an increasingly splintered and diverse media though still censored, a surge in religion particularly Chinese Buddhism and Taoism, tensions followed by a modest re-partitioning of spheres of influence in the Sea of Japan and South China seas. There'll probably a worldwide recession in there, but I don't believe it will provoke some political earthquake in China. It'll just suck for a while.
elambend
March 21, 2007
3:46 pm
Dave,
Thanks for the reasoned response. What you say makes absolute sense, and since I don't think anyone is paying attention anymore; I'll admit that I had talked my self into a rhetorical corner vis-a-vis the PLA. It's a danger of doing this in little snatches of time during long workdays on subjects of which I am no expert. Plus, I like to go out on a limb a little in thoughts, if only to have those who do know more tell me why I am wrong.

Your vision for the future of China hews closely to how I think China will change in the aggregate. I do worry a little about the structure of the economy and its ability to withstand the ups and downs of the business cylcle. However, as brutal as those in charge are, they are really savvy economic managers. It is evident just in their announcements.

thanks again.
snow
March 22, 2007
1:55 am
Dave, do you think China will make any military moves on Taiwan? What about Christianity? Isn't it growing fast in the country (I know the numbers are probably very small anyway)? Thanks for the assessments of China, very interesting comments from you and others.
sunbin
March 22, 2007
5:48 am
income disparity: there are views that the statistics are deceiving, due to more invisible income (and repatriation of migrant workers) than the yuppies.
The peasants are a lot more well off in the past few years.
Stephen Cheung (ex-econ dean of HK Univerisity) is of such view, he was a professor in U Wash, has lived in China for about 10 years now,a nd has frequented there since 1980.

p.s. i heard harry harding has a good article on China recently, on Carnegie Endowment, but am unable to locate it. it addresses many of the issues discussed here as well.
davesgonechina
March 22, 2007
7:18 am
@Elambend: you're not exactly the only one who suspects major intrigue in the PLA, but I'm overcautious of such predictions without some good docs or evidence (like the Tiananmen Papers or something). It's quite possible there's such a divide, but remember Hu is the boss of the Party and the military, and that would mean any rift would tear him in half - or be healed by him. I just don't see enough evidence that there's such a clear line in the sand between the two structures.

@Snow: On Taiwan: not if they can help it. They may be willing to make the sacrifices, but I don't think they have any illusions about how major the consequences would be. For one thing, all of the assets Taiwan has would not survive a conflict, and the prospect of Chinese on Chinese warfare again would be a major psychic problem. Not to mention international condemnation, casualties, possible World War III/IV/V/XI depending on your personal political calendar...

On Christianity: it certainly seems to be growing, and will have a role to play. But I find the future of indigeneous religions far more interesting, as it has deeper roots, has been manifesting itself more and more, and seems to be less and less a political issue based on the old division of the KMT support traditional beliefs and the Communists condemning them as feudal. It'll probably still be political, but not in that old cast. Christianity will continue to be a minority, whereas Buddhism and Taoism will have resonance with anyone, whether rural or urban. This is probably one of the reasons Falun Gong was considered such a threat, because it could communicate immediately in spiritual terms that everyone grew up with.

But this is all speculation, and I'd say I'm no expert except that I don't think that would even help. So much can happen in a year, let alone 10.
snow
March 22, 2007
9:47 am
Dave, thanks for your insight. Fascinating stuff. We'll just have to see what will happen. I do agree that China will probably stay on the course of making money for a good many years yet, but as you say, it's hard to predict the future.