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	<title>Comments on: Transformation in&#160;Germany</title>
	<atom:link href="http://cominganarchy.com/2006/11/15/transformation-in-germany/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://cominganarchy.com/2006/11/15/transformation-in-germany/</link>
	<description>Speak Victorian, Think Pagan</description>
	<pubDate>Thu, 08 Jan 2009 19:02:53 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Michael</title>
		<link>http://cominganarchy.com/2006/11/15/transformation-in-germany/comment-page-1/#comment-156321</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 17 Nov 2006 00:23:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.cominganarchy.com/?p=2300#comment-156321</guid>
		<description>Smitteneagle,
you're right that the insurgency couldn't have been prevented, but that doesn't mean that slowing it down wouldn't have been a good idea.

If you aren't already doing so, spend some time reading Dr Barnett's blog. Aside from noticing what seems to work and what seems to fail tactically, he doesn't really tell the military how to do their jobs so much as what those jobs need to be.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Smitteneagle,<br />
you&#8217;re right that the insurgency couldn&#8217;t have been prevented, but that doesn&#8217;t mean that slowing it down wouldn&#8217;t have been a good idea.</p>
<p>If you aren&#8217;t already doing so, spend some time reading Dr Barnett&#8217;s blog. Aside from noticing what seems to work and what seems to fail tactically, he doesn&#8217;t really tell the military how to do their jobs so much as what those jobs need to be.</p>
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		<title>By: IJ</title>
		<link>http://cominganarchy.com/2006/11/15/transformation-in-germany/comment-page-1/#comment-155767</link>
		<dc:creator>IJ</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 Nov 2006 14:26:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.cominganarchy.com/?p=2300#comment-155767</guid>
		<description>See democratic pressures.

From "EU Observer":http://euobserver.com/9/22857/?rk=1

"EU member states are likely to begin reducing troops in Bosnia and Herzegovina early next year, despite potential instability stemming from talks on the future status of nearby Kosovo. . . Germany and the UK last month announced they would like to reduce the number of soldiers in the region next year."</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>See democratic pressures.</p>
<p>From <a href="http://euobserver.com/9/22857/?rk=1" title="" onclick="javascript:urchinTracker ('/outbound/comment/euobserver.com');"><span class="caps">EU </span>Observer</a></p>
<p>&#8220;EU member states are likely to begin reducing troops in Bosnia and Herzegovina early next year, despite potential instability stemming from talks on the future status of nearby Kosovo. . . Germany and the UK last month announced they would like to reduce the number of soldiers in the region next year.&#8221; </p>
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		<title>By: IJ</title>
		<link>http://cominganarchy.com/2006/11/15/transformation-in-germany/comment-page-1/#comment-155734</link>
		<dc:creator>IJ</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 Nov 2006 13:42:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.cominganarchy.com/?p=2300#comment-155734</guid>
		<description>_The paper goes on to outline Germany's need to combat terrorism, proliferation and human rights violations around the world with NATO as the cornerstone of its policy. It calls for both strengthened ties to the United States and to the EU as well as subtly hinting at a need for increased funding which currently stands at a pathtic 1.2% of the GDP._ 

Most of NATO's countries have long spent less than 2 percent of GDP on the military (NATO's target).  Democratic pressures will doubtless reduce the public expenditure even further.  In essence, funding is a key problem with the transformation proposal - which might be resolved if the United Nations is more closely involved in authorising military action.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><em>The paper goes on to outline Germany&#8217;s need to combat terrorism, proliferation and human rights violations around the world with <span class="caps">NATO</span> as the cornerstone of its policy. It calls for both strengthened ties to the United States and to the EU as well as subtly hinting at a need for increased funding which currently stands at a pathtic 1.2% of the <span class="caps">GDP</span>.</em></p>
<p>Most of <span class="caps">NATO</span>&#8217;s countries have long spent less than 2 percent of <span class="caps">GDP</span> on the military (NATO&#8217;s target).  Democratic pressures will doubtless reduce the public expenditure even further.  In essence, funding is a key problem with the transformation proposal &#8211; which might be resolved if the United Nations is more closely involved in authorising military action.</p>
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		<title>By: Smitten Eagle</title>
		<link>http://cominganarchy.com/2006/11/15/transformation-in-germany/comment-page-1/#comment-155177</link>
		<dc:creator>Smitten Eagle</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 Nov 2006 00:51:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.cominganarchy.com/?p=2300#comment-155177</guid>
		<description>Watch what happens when those 100k support troops start getting shot at.  My guess would be the same thing as the 571 Maint Company--get killed or captured and wait for the fighters to come to the rescue.

I'm skeptical of the Leviathan/SysAdmin division because, to use some 3GW/4GW terminology, the support troops provide a surface to attack without the combat power to defend (they are the equivalent of a rear-area forces), and will therefore get killed.  At the same time the Leviathan presents a surface with huge amounts of combat power, and consequently repels enemies.  This places the two forces at odds with eachother, and ultimately leads to a disunity of command, which is fatal in COIN ops (look at the SysAdmin-esque and utterly incompetent CPA, or the UN during its brief time in Iraq before it was bombed).

And don't tell me that the insurgency in Iraq could have been averted with more SysAdmin troops.  The grievance of the Sunnis is entirely political, and nothing the SysAdmin types could dish out would have prevented the insurgency from arising.  And Yes, I know that Dr. Barnett views the Army and Marines, especially the Light Infantrymen, as SysAdmin.  Go and tell that to a TOW Missileman and see what he thinks.  Bottom line, these guys are warfighters--they shoot, move, and communicate as their core mission.  Yes, they can distribute MREs, convoy, provide security to HADRs, NEOs, TRAPs, etc.  But that doesn't make them SysAdmin.  A successful SysAdmin capabiliy requires unity of command at the tactical level.  That means small task forces under captains and colonels with infantry providing security and engineers, docs, civilians, and civil servants working together at the small unit level.  And those same grunts may also be leviathans.  This is the successful model of the PRTs in Afghanistan.

I wonder whether the German SysAdmin force will be anything other than hostages that need to be rescued when the goin gets tough.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Watch what happens when those 100k support troops start getting shot at.  My guess would be the same thing as the 571 Maint Company&#8212;get killed or captured and wait for the fighters to come to the rescue.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m skeptical of the Leviathan/SysAdmin division because, to use some 3GW/4GW terminology, the support troops provide a surface to attack without the combat power to defend (they are the equivalent of a rear-area forces), and will therefore get killed.  At the same time the Leviathan presents a surface with huge amounts of combat power, and consequently repels enemies.  This places the two forces at odds with eachother, and ultimately leads to a disunity of command, which is fatal in <span class="caps">COIN</span> ops (look at the SysAdmin-esque and utterly incompetent <span class="caps">CPA</span>, or the UN during its brief time in Iraq before it was bombed).</p>
<p>And don&#8217;t tell me that the insurgency in Iraq could have been averted with more SysAdmin troops.  The grievance of the Sunnis is entirely political, and nothing the SysAdmin types could dish out would have prevented the insurgency from arising.  And Yes, I know that Dr. Barnett views the Army and Marines, especially the Light Infantrymen, as SysAdmin.  Go and tell that to a <span class="caps">TOW </span>Missileman and see what he thinks.  Bottom line, these guys are warfighters&#8212;they shoot, move, and communicate as their core mission.  Yes, they can distribute MREs, convoy, provide security to <span class="caps">HAD</span>Rs, NEOs, <span class="caps">TRA</span>Ps, etc.  But that doesn&#8217;t make them SysAdmin.  A successful SysAdmin capabiliy requires unity of command at the tactical level.  That means small task forces under captains and colonels with infantry providing security and engineers, docs, civilians, and civil servants working together at the small unit level.  And those same grunts may also be leviathans.  This is the successful model of the PRTs in Afghanistan.</p>
<p>I wonder whether the German SysAdmin force will be anything other than hostages that need to be rescued when the goin gets tough.</p>
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		<title>By: MikeS</title>
		<link>http://cominganarchy.com/2006/11/15/transformation-in-germany/comment-page-1/#comment-154996</link>
		<dc:creator>MikeS</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Nov 2006 20:59:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.cominganarchy.com/?p=2300#comment-154996</guid>
		<description>I would be interested to see the composition of the stabilization units vs the combat units.  If the difference is similar to the Marines vs the US Army then the breakdown looks more viable.  But if the stabilization forces are engineers and not grunts then I think their force is too small.  Just my opinion.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I would be interested to see the composition of the stabilization units vs the combat units.  If the difference is similar to the Marines vs the <span class="caps">US </span>Army then the breakdown looks more viable.  But if the stabilization forces are engineers and not grunts then I think their force is too small.  Just my opinion.</p>
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		<title>By: a517dogg</title>
		<link>http://cominganarchy.com/2006/11/15/transformation-in-germany/comment-page-1/#comment-154977</link>
		<dc:creator>a517dogg</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Nov 2006 20:17:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.cominganarchy.com/?p=2300#comment-154977</guid>
		<description>If German troops were in Darfur, they would presumably lead with the 35,000 combat troops, and then occupy with the 70,000 stabilization troops, supported by 100k+ more (and the 35k would go home).  And they would also presumably be part of a coalition - imagine Germany, France, the UK and Italy all throwing 50-70,000 stabilization forces at a problem (and don't forget Poland).  Leads to a much better occupation force than our current occupation of Iraq, as they will actually be trained for the job.

I think Germany conceives of projecting German power abroad more as projecting stability, rather than projecting hard power.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If German troops were in Darfur, they would presumably lead with the 35,000 combat troops, and then occupy with the 70,000 stabilization troops, supported by 100k+ more (and the 35k would go home).  And they would also presumably be part of a coalition &#8211; imagine Germany, France, the UK and Italy all throwing 50-70,000 stabilization forces at a problem (and don&#8217;t forget Poland).  Leads to a much better occupation force than our current occupation of Iraq, as they will actually be trained for the job.</p>
<p>I think Germany conceives of projecting German power abroad more as projecting stability, rather than projecting hard power.</p>
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		<title>By: MikeS</title>
		<link>http://cominganarchy.com/2006/11/15/transformation-in-germany/comment-page-1/#comment-154974</link>
		<dc:creator>MikeS</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Nov 2006 20:06:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.cominganarchy.com/?p=2300#comment-154974</guid>
		<description>I realize that, but I thought the point of the reorg was to some degree to project German power abroad, to stabilize trade and to "protect human rights".  To protect human rights you have to engage in combat the enemies of those rights.  Like the US did against Iraq and the Taliban in Afghanistan.  35,000 troops seems like a small number to control Sudan with for example.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I realize that, but I thought the point of the reorg was to some degree to project German power abroad, to stabilize trade and to &#8220;protect human rights&#8221;.  To protect human rights you have to engage in combat the enemies of those rights.  Like the US did against Iraq and the Taliban in Afghanistan.  35,000 troops seems like a small number to control Sudan with for example.</p>
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		<title>By: a517dogg</title>
		<link>http://cominganarchy.com/2006/11/15/transformation-in-germany/comment-page-1/#comment-154970</link>
		<dc:creator>a517dogg</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Nov 2006 19:50:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.cominganarchy.com/?p=2300#comment-154970</guid>
		<description>MikeS, I think that if there ever was a situation in which Germany was threatened by a real country, they would probably increase their combat troops pretty quickly.  Also the American security guarantee means that Germany has little incentive to have large numbers of combat troops, just so they can sit around and act as a deterrent when there is already a much larger deterrent in their country.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>MikeS, I think that if there ever was a situation in which Germany was threatened by a real country, they would probably increase their combat troops pretty quickly.  Also the American security guarantee means that Germany has little incentive to have large numbers of combat troops, just so they can sit around and act as a deterrent when there is already a much larger deterrent in their country.</p>
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		<title>By: MikeS</title>
		<link>http://cominganarchy.com/2006/11/15/transformation-in-germany/comment-page-1/#comment-154838</link>
		<dc:creator>MikeS</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Nov 2006 14:26:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.cominganarchy.com/?p=2300#comment-154838</guid>
		<description>"There will be around 35,000 combat troops, 70,000 for stabilization and 147,500 for support."

Only 35,000 combat troops?  That is pathetic for a nation as populous and wealthy as Germany.  How exactly would they ever win a real war against a real enemy that was threatening Germany?

The German deployment to Lebanon is a joke BTW.  These guys sit in their base all day and then once a week or so they drive around the local villages to be seen.  They are doing absolutely nothing to prevent Hizbollah from re-arming and starting another conflict.

I agree that the basic idea of reforming the Germany military is a good idea, but the first step would be to dramatically adjust those troop ratios to at least 50% combat troops.  Stabilization and Support troops are expensive truck drives and chefs.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;There will be around 35,000 combat troops, 70,000 for stabilization and 147,500 for support.&#8221;</p>
<p>Only 35,000 combat troops?  That is pathetic for a nation as populous and wealthy as Germany.  How exactly would they ever win a real war against a real enemy that was threatening Germany?</p>
<p>The German deployment to Lebanon is a joke <span class="caps">BTW</span>.  These guys sit in their base all day and then once a week or so they drive around the local villages to be seen.  They are doing absolutely nothing to prevent Hizbollah from re-arming and starting another conflict.</p>
<p>I agree that the basic idea of reforming the Germany military is a good idea, but the first step would be to dramatically adjust those troop ratios to at least 50% combat troops.  Stabilization and Support troops are expensive truck drives and chefs.</p>
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