Peter at the Duck of Minerva is holding a threatdown. He’s asked students in his National Security Policy course to list the top 10 threats to the United States. Including bears, many of the answers were non-state actors or environmental issues. A very telling sign. As he notes, were he to ask the same of professionals over 35, states would surely have held the majority of the honors. It is in this spirit, that I ask Coming Anarchy readers to do the same. Given your diverse cultural, national, political and educational backgrounds, your feedback will be quite interesting.


COMMENTS / 30 COMMENTS

In no particular order:

Internal threats:
Dysfunctional political divisiveness. Debate is good and the foundation of a functional democracy. HOWEVER, when debate degenerates into ad hominem attacks and vulgar name calling without any ability to consider opposing viewpoints, then there’s no foundation to build upon.

Bloated government. Not necessarily just at the federal level either. There are plenty of bloat at the state and local level. CUT THE FRACKING SPENDING! Put the government programs out in the open and let “the people” decide what portion of their tax money should go to support which programs. Social programs are needed, but the bureaucracies take the bulk of the money to ensure the money isn’t wasted on the poor.

An education system more focused on “self esteem” than edumakasion. Textbook writers pushing agendas, especially in the historical and social contexts.

Immigration without assimilation. Single-sided PC Multicultural tyranny based on a moral relativistic fallacy.

External threats:
States and non-state actors: Not really a threat to the U.S., not in the big scheme. Sure, we might lose a city to a smuggled nuke, but the U.S. is BIG. And most people do have commonsense when reality bites them in the butt. I believe the majority are Jeffersonian—it’s just a matter of waking up from the complacency of a thriving economy and 180 channels on cable.

Flu. Superflu. Avian flu. Something else. It’s been a hundred years since a real pandemic and we’re much more connected than we were 100 years ago. 13 Monkeys is a real possibility.

Comet impact. Definite threat—probablity small, but still greater than zero. And not really a damn thing we could do.

Summary:
We could lose the east coast, we could lose the west coast and still vestiges of Western Civ would survive. We seem to be our main threat—our own internal conflicts and lack of coherant long term vision threaten this great experiment. Yet I remain optimistic because if there’s one thing our short history has proven, it’s that Americans are unpredictable and infinately innovative and flexible when needed to be. Hell, even if all tech got wiped in a massive EMP, our Amish would still be around to rebuild the country. -cp

cold pizza added these pithy words on 05 Oct 06 at 5:30 pm

Stupidity. If our current educational system manages to hang on for another generation, despite challenges from technology and parents who love their children, we will be damaged at our core and less able to compete in a world of hungry, huge new superpowers. Ignorance and leftist political indoctrination are a very destructive combination that weakens our society in many ways. Unwillingness to assimilate immigrants falls under this rubric. This is the worst danger and it is entirely self-inflicted.

Creeping socialism. The slow but cancerous growth of government could choke off our economic dynamism and political freedom. Most of the damage would come from unintended consequences of seemingly well-intentioned policies and programs. Also self-inflicted

Our entertainment industry. The depravity and squalor of the entertainment products which saturate the minds, hearts and lives of our people, especially our children and our less-wealthy people is destructive at home and is the key source of the hatred many foreigners feel toward us. As George Kennan put it, our popular culture makes us the moral dunce of the world. This is a strategic weakness.

Social unrest. This could lead to a more divided, unequal and stratified society. This could be spurred by a severe recession. This would be the result of the prior three, which weaken our ability to respond dynamically and to spontaneously cooperate in the face of setbacks.

WMD attack by terrorists, or maybe NK. Losing Manhattan or the Long Beach container port would not destroy the country, but would provoke a worldwide recession. Very bad.

Pandemic disease. Anything from the equivalent of the Spanish Influenza of 1918-19 to the Black Death of the Middle Ages on a global scale. Very bad.

That’s six. Any others are not in this league. Most of our threats are self-inflicted.

(I don’t know enough about the probability of Earth getting hit by a comet or a big chunk of rock to assess how serious a threat that is.)

Lexington Green added these pithy words on 05 Oct 06 at 10:11 pm

Massive debt. The USA is now the world’s largest net debtor nation.

Environmental destruction: global warming, ecological degradation, all the rest.

Resource depletion. Self-explanatory.

A decaying industrial infrastructure. Industry has now been largely supplanted by finance and speculation, while investment in actual production continues to stagnate, or is financed by an unsustainable accumulation of private debt.

An education system that exists to placate a handful of special interests (ie, the religious right) by reducing America’s educational curricula to the lowest common denominator.

Electoral myopia. The public is wholly uninformed and largely unfit to decide who governs it. It will make decisions on the basis of emotions and whoever has the better advertising scheme rather than what is in the nation’s long-run best interests.

Endless wars abroad that end up draining the country of its resources, while alienating potential allies and revealing much about America’s military capabilities and tactics to its potential rivals (notably China).

Loss of international credibility as a “leader of the world” (as though it weren’t low enough already) due to various antics, most recently the suspension of habeas corpus in the Military Commissions Act.

Creeping dominionism. If religion continues to gain influence in the government, the result will be cultural, economic, and scientific stagnation of the kind that affects modern day Islamic states.

Demographics. In a few decades, white Protestants will be a minority in America. Depending on attitudes then, racial tensions could surge if this group begins to view itself as being “under threat”.

The continued growth of the military industrial complex, both absolutely and in a manner designed to cater to special interests rather than strategic imperatives.

The potential obsolescence of much of American economic infrastructure. This happened to Britain at the pinnacle of its power: technological innovations had no leeway, and were eventually co-opted by Germany and America, causing Britain to lose its leading position in the world as the producer of many industrial products. The same thing seems to be happening between Asia and America today: many of the latest plants are now overseas.

That’s all I can think of for now.

Kenneth added these pithy words on 05 Oct 06 at 10:43 pm

You guys have completed missed the most serious problem of all, which is the significant increase in global warming caused by cigarette smoking .

Fortunately, Al Gore explained this and other perils of climate change to a rapt audience at a United Nation conference September 29, 2006. To paraphrase Oscar Wilde, one would have to have a heart of stone to listen to the anguish of Al Gore without laughing.

Chief Wiggum added these pithy words on 05 Oct 06 at 11:23 pm

1) A truly significant disruption in oil distribution. Not just super high prices, but dry taps, like in the seventies.

2) a wave of protectionism, particularly between the big economies (Nafta, EU, China, etc.).

3) A banking meltdown in China.

4) A run on the dollar (instead of the slow deflation we’re gonna get [hopefully]).

5) A Chinese invasion of Taiwan that isn’t successful in a week or less.

6) A flu variant we didn’t see coming.

7) An expansionist Iran (possibly related to number 1)

8) A turn away from R&D in the US, or an flight of research dollars to other places (like India and China).

ElamBend added these pithy words on 06 Oct 06 at 2:56 am

Well… to the United States’ citizens, to the United States as a nation-state, or to the United States’ government as we know it?

I think that the first question is fairly boring, because in that case of course we would end up with “automobiles, in particular those being driven by drunks”, “cholesterol”, etc. And yet, when people answer things like “bears” and “the flu”, that is what they are really talking about. Plague is bad, but it would affect most countries equally and I think our political system and our nation’s borders could survive it.

Immigration would be a threat to our government and culture as we know them, but positive in some ways, and negative in some ways, and wouldn’t hurt most individuals, or our status as a nation-state. The degradation of our culture and education certainly could change our country into something unrecognizeable, but would not directly lead to the weakening of our country as a superpower. For that, someone else would have to surpass us.

An expansionist Iran could cause us to overstrech our armed forces and lead to serious weakening of our ability to defend ourselves and maintain our status as a sovereign nation state.

Also I would wonder whether he means “great” in terms of probability (in which case I believe global warming would definitely be up there) or in terms of urgency (in which case terrorism would supercede global warming).

All in all I think the question is poorly defined. We need to look at risks in terms of their probability, the timeframe of their realization, as well as what kinds of effects they have on us (severe vs. less severe, individual vs. group, etc.)

Otherwise we all just end up spouting off random threats that do not have anything to do with one another, like meteors vs. terrorist hacking into the CIA’s intranet vs. the impending coming of age of Generation “Y”.

Elizabeth added these pithy words on 06 Oct 06 at 3:41 am

With the exception of a major cometary or asteriod impact, I actually think that civilization has become crash-proof. Even an all-out nuclear war would not extinguish civilization (although thing would be screwed for a good 20-30 years).

Kurt added these pithy words on 06 Oct 06 at 4:05 am

Top Ten Threats to the United States

10. Ignorant United States citizens mistaking thoughts for thinking, which would not be so bad in and of itself if they were not so easily manipulated by:
9. Public media controlled by an entrenched hegemony, which could be benignly guiding the United States if it did not greedily and shortsightedly engender:
8. Competing global power cartels intent in supplanting the entrenched hegemony by any and all means through manipulation of:
7. Disenfranchised populations in Gap nations, who would remain frustrated without access to globalized arms and drug markets created by:
6. Multinational corporations operating beyond the control of any sovereign state who employ:
5. Professional lobbyists, agents and power brokers who ply their trade inside systems and outside of controls determining agendas for:
4. The government of the United States, which is locked into a dysfunctional two party system, composed of:
3. The Democratic National Committee, which is a body of multimillionaires posing as if to represent citizens who actually have to work for a living and oppose:
2. The Republican National Committee who unabashedly represents the interests of corporate big business but in order to gain supporters must pander to:
1. Politically conservative fundamentalist religions that spawn localized xenophobic militias which left unchecked will fractionalize and finally Balkanize the United States at which time it will cease to exist as a single sovereign nation.

RevG added these pithy words on 06 Oct 06 at 5:14 am

Clearly the biggest threat is that one day someone, perhaps the Raelians or the NORKs, will succeed in creating the ultimate biological weapon:

Paris Hilton gene-spliced with a bear into some sort of terrifying Bearis Hilton Super Soldier.

And then we’re all fucked.

The sooner humanity can put down its PSPs and copies of US Weekly to band together against this threat, the better off we’ll be.

davesgonechina added these pithy words on 06 Oct 06 at 6:11 am

Kurt,
I wish I could be so sanquin, given the number of world civiliaztions that have found ways to fail; I’m not sure about crash-proof. At best Civilizations manage to muddle through bad centuries, a la China. However, Rome is an example of complete collapse in which a lot of technology and learning was lost completely and others were not re-invented for several centuries.

Now I agree that the curent civlization model is a lot more resiliant and self-healing. It could even survive losing large chunks to anarchy. However, I don’t know if I would say crash-proof. For instance, a sudden and long-term disruption in oil-distribution would severly tax the system. We’ve seen in the last year that the world economy can handle expensive oil, however, the oil was always availble. If something were to occur, whether through distribution channels, or the sources that would creat situation where there was not enough oil available at any price this would creat a severe shock to the world economy and could lead to cascading failures. (For instance, what would this do to food prices and distribution). Again, energy costs right now are significantly less than 30 years ago, so it’s not a matter of price; its just a matter of that it’s there.

elambend added these pithy words on 06 Oct 06 at 4:55 pm

Going Global on the Threat Down
Please arrange in whatever order you wish. Not mad but just so!

  • Religion without personal conviction ““ god helps those who help themselves
  • Living in your own pond ““ One horse town! With blinders
  • Living without sustaining ““ produce what one needs!
  • Things I am made to do by the Government ““ my apology (I mean within not without)!
  • Food and shelter abuse (rat packing!): Welfare of all who inhabit
  • Driving: Public transportation should be for all and free. Not anarchic am I?
  • Overworking: A month’s vacation for all who toil ““ (8.5% of life time)
  • Papyrus! ““ Only have a child if you can afford a Blacberry!
  • Flatlanders: remember the wheel and the Earth is a ball!

*Not breathing: taking care of oneself

vijay added these pithy words on 06 Oct 06 at 5:09 pm

In no particular order
Internal-

Hyper-partisanship: both political parties seem to only to be interested in scoring points against the other side, not actually making life better for people, both at home and around the world

Education: we are not turning out thinkers, we are creating rote learners who regurgitate large amounts of info, for the “better” students, not people that can make connections amongst various issues

Degraded/aging infrastructure: our highways, railroads, electrical grid, and water distribution systems are fallingapart from only receiving emergency patches for the last 30-40 years

social inequality/stratification: the have’s and have not’s in this country are further apart economically than they have been since the Great Depression, if not longer

Debt: both public and private

External-

Nuclear weapons: both proliferation, now spreading to unstable states (NK and Pakistan), and the possiblity of non-state actors getting their hands on them

Environmental Degradation: both the health costs from pollution, which are huge, and the dangers of global warming, whether it is just littoral areas being increasing threatened during regular strength storms, and the chance of much stronger and more frequent storms that can innundate cities and regions

Energy supplies: if there is a serious disruption or shortage in our oil/gas supplies before we can find an effective efficient way to replace those two fuels for our transportation networks the global economy will face serious hardships

“Clash of Civilizations”: we can’t afford for the muslim and western worlds to fight like they did during the crusades

Disease: whether it is Aids, bird slu, or some other pandemic, these could either devestate developing countries(AIDS) or shut down world travel

number 1 danger for both internal and external:

The thing we didn’t think of. Throughout history it has been the danger that most people in power did not see coming that has caused the most trouble.

Sorry for the length.

jon added these pithy words on 06 Oct 06 at 5:40 pm

Lexington Green, you strike me as a glass half empty kinda guy ;)

Bill added these pithy words on 06 Oct 06 at 5:41 pm

People who cannot pronounce “nuclear”.

von Kaufman-Turkestansky added these pithy words on 06 Oct 06 at 7:13 pm

I’m surprised no one has mentioned the fact that we are poisoning our bodies by eating refined, processed foods with all kinds of additives. A few generations of poor nutrition leads to diminished reproduction; 15% of US couples are infertile. Diabetes, heart disease, cancer, Alzheimers, ADHD, allergies, arthritis, and autism have all been linked to modern foods. So far modern medicine has kept one step of ahead of chronic disease, and our life expectancy continues to rise. I wonder for how much longer. At my school, about 20% of the student body have medical issues ranging from severe allergies to eczema to bizarre abnormalities I have never heard of.

Sonagi added these pithy words on 06 Oct 06 at 11:43 pm

Bill, no way. This is, after all, a “threatdown”.

I think the trends are good. I think we are at the beginning of a golden age for the USA. The world is becoming more peaceful. The danger of a major war is low and decreasing due to the pacifying effect of nuclear weapons. Bin Laden is peanuts compared to Hitler or Stalin. Of course, things can still turn out badly, and there will be disasters. But this is a very resilient country, and the vast mass of its citizens are competent, hard-working, and are motivated by rational self interest and common sense and a generally benign attitude toward their neighbors and the rest of the world. They tend to gravitate over time to the right outcomes on the major questions. Unlike some commentators, my observation of the long term value of American democracy is stronger than ever.

I like the cards we are holding.

BTW, is your avatar Macchiavelli? Good selection.

Lexington Green added these pithy words on 07 Oct 06 at 3:48 am

Sonagi:

I’m surprised no one has mentioned the fact that we are poisoning our bodies by eating refined, processed foods with all kinds of additives.

This strikes me as remarkably myopic of recent centuries. This is the first century in which we have conquered disease, starvation, and the average lifespan is approaching 80 years. Refined, processed food is just fine as long as its included in a balanced diet.

Curzon added these pithy words on 07 Oct 06 at 7:50 am

@ Lex: I know, but the tone of the comment was too good to pass up :)

And yes, it is Machiavelli.

bp32 added these pithy words on 07 Oct 06 at 12:18 pm

Curzon,

We have indeed conquered starvation in the US, but we have not conquered malnutrition. Our nation, blessed with abundant fertile land and a large agricultural industry, is capable of providing nutritious food to every American man, woman, and child, but instead nutritious whole foods are transformed into packaged products with twenty different ingredients, most of which add sweetness and/or extend the shelflife.

We have NOT conquered disease. Infectious diseases are much less of a threat, but two chronic diseases, diabetes and heart failure, are on the rise, and cancer continues to be a major cause of death, striking 40% of Americans at some time in their lives.

A serving of macaroni and cheese once in a while isn’t going to shorten anyone’s lifespan, but Curzon, many of the kids I have contact with consume a diet that is almost exclusively processed: sugary cereal for breakfast with juice instead of fruit; a hot lunch that is a nutritionist’s nightmare – think chicken nuggets with BBQ sauce and fruit cocktail drowning in syrup; and a dinner that probably came out of a box or a jar.

I shall restate this idea from my previous post:

So far modern medicine has kept one step of ahead of chronic disease, and our life expectancy continues to rise.

Statins, stents, and bypasses have made it possible for folks to live with arteries clogged by years of eating unhealthy foods. Former President Clinton is alive and well not because of his diet but because of technology and surgical procedures that did not exist a generation ago when my father was disabled by a heart attack and died a few months later of a second one. Modern medicine deserves far more credit than the food industry for enabling Americans to live longer lives.

Another factor in our rising longevity is the decrease in smoking rates since the 1960s.

Sonagi added these pithy words on 07 Oct 06 at 12:38 pm

1-6. The coming singularity

7. WMD proliferation and use in a major attack against leading centers of civilization.

8. The spread of anti-liberal forces (from Islamism to creeping anti-rationalist leftism) due to a failure of the expansionist CA community to achieve neo-victorian world hegemony (or at least balance of power and robust threat deterrence) soon enough.

9. Insufficient energy diversification coupled with severe shocks to the system from a wide array of possible geopolitical sources.

10. Rapid spread of a severe global pandemic.

J.Kende added these pithy words on 07 Oct 06 at 5:11 pm

Interesting link on singularity, Kende. I am, however, skeptical of AI as a threat in my lifetime. Computers are much, much faster than humans, but their “thought” processes are nowhere near as complex as ours. Computer translators cannot even do a decent job of turning English into Chinese because their “brains” cannot handle the multi-layered context of language. Speech recognition technology is still in its infancy. The other day I practically had to staccato shout my answers into an automated system, and I speak clear SAE with no regional accent.

I agree with you very much on #9, energy diversification.

Sonagi added these pithy words on 07 Oct 06 at 5:55 pm

I still think the question is too poorly framed to give an interesting answer in list form. Anyone who has read “The White Castle” will remember the piercing question asked by Hoja near the beginning of the book… what does it mean for them (the Turks) to be defeated? Will they forget what minarets are for? Will the people wake up one day and forget how to wear their clothes? Will they become slaves? And so on. I wish I had the book with me… anyone who can provide the quote is welcome.

But I want to comment on this singularity.

First of all, computers do not need to be as intelligent as humans in order to threaten our survival. Viruses are not very intelligent, and neither are bacteria, but as self-propogating organisms, they could give us quite a run for our money. Usually they don’t because they need us as hosts. But a computer which ate us first and monkeys second would not need to understand the words “don’t eat me” to propogate itself at my expense.

Not that I think this is a realistic threat. It just has nothing to do with having a brain like ours. After all, do you really need to be able to enjoy a ballet in order to conquer the world? Seems like quite the opposite.

Elizabeth added these pithy words on 07 Oct 06 at 6:07 pm

Interesting points, Elizabeth. Viruses and bacteria are organisms evolving in nature, not created and nor controlled by humans. Computers, being non-organic, could never propagate themselves. Ghengis Khan may not have patronized the arts, but he was highly intelligent as evidenced by his military successes. Evil people may win wars, but not stupid people. Intelligence is much more broadly defined than creating and enjoying high culture.

Sonagi added these pithy words on 07 Oct 06 at 10:42 pm

I should add that human intelligence made it possible for us to render as endangered or extinct predatory animals that killed our ancestors. Vaccines, antibiotics, and good hygiene, all made possible by human intelligence, have reduced our risk of infectious diseases.

I do see your point that intelligence is not required for something to be a threat, and we both agree that singularity is not a threat.

Looking at the lists, it seems that most of the perceived threats are man-made not natural.

Sonagi added these pithy words on 07 Oct 06 at 10:49 pm

“Computers, being non-organic, could never propagate themselves.”

Well, I wouldn’t say never but I suspect you’re right. Nonetheless, I do not think that, if artifacts of any intelligence were to be a threat to humans, their success would depend on the kind of broad intelligence you describe. Viruses aren’t even capable of evil, but they are dangerous. But this comes back to what sort of threat we are talking about.

Elizabeth added these pithy words on 07 Oct 06 at 10:53 pm

Sorry, that was posted before your second note came up. Fully agree.

Elizabeth added these pithy words on 07 Oct 06 at 10:54 pm

Sonagi,
The rise of processed foods came at the end of our struggle against hunger. You are right that technology now allows us to deal with the resultant effects upon our body (including quite possibly the inflamation that causes heart disease, as well as the obvious type-2 diabetes, etc). However, with hunger now defeated (i.e. supply of quick nutrients), our rising wealth will eventually allow us to move toward a balanced nutritional meal. The challenge will be moving people away from the sugar/glucose dependancy we have formed. Just google “heritage chicken” and you’ll see that alternatives are arriving; for the wealthy now, for others later.

ElamBend added these pithy words on 09 Oct 06 at 2:23 am

ElamBend,

As a consumer of meat, eggs, and produce from small, organic family farms, I am well aware of the choices and benefits of sustainable agriculture. Foodstuffs from farms that practice sustainable agriculture comprise a tiny fraction of overall sales. The challenge is educating middle-class consumers, who can afford to pay more for food with a much higher nutritional value.

Hunger hasn’t been defeated yet. As I recall, obesity has overtaken starvation as a cause of illness with more than 1 billion people overweight. However, 800 million still do not get enough to eat.

Sonagi added these pithy words on 09 Oct 06 at 10:34 am

Hopeful technologies on the horizon to combat the threatdown (again, in no particular order):

Nanotechnology. Microscopic robots working on the molecular level to rebuild and repair the human body from the inside. Nanotech assembly “replicators” building nearly any tangible item you can think of, from food and clothing to advanced, miniturized electronics. Also works for desalination of ocean water and extraction of minerals from same.

Solar energy satellites in geo-synch orbit. Taking the high energy solar output (“cosmic rays”) and converting it to microwave energy tranmitted back to receiving stations on earth. However, until we get into high orbit, focus on nuclear power plants.

Space elevator. Useful for getting into low Earth orbit safely. Either a stationary elevator or a “spoke” system. Once you have a cheap and safe way of getting into space, it’d make disposal of waste nuclear materials practical—use a mass driver to just toss the waste nuke into the sun.

Controlled evolution. I’ve viewed the singularity as a logical step in the evolution of humanity. There’s only so much room in the brain, and it’s not always the perfect medium for storage or transmittal (even with nanotech assist). Plus, as medical science pushes the edge on unlocking the genome sequences (what RNA coding is responsible for what particular biological function), we’d be able to engineer tough, resilient bodies with virtually unlimited lifespans.

Just a reminder, much of the technology we take for granted today was science fiction just a generation or two ago: Microwaves to cook, PCs, MRIs, space travel (even if it is local), color T.V., fiberoptic communications, INTERNET, anti-lock brakes. We don’t even want to go down the road of medical miracles.

All I’m saying is, if there’s a profit to be made, someone will figure out what to do. We’re barely scratching the surface on understanding the physical realities of the universe—we’ve got a decent grasp of the electromagnetic principles down and are working on the strong and weak nuclear forces—imaging the possibilities when these forces are understood as well as E-M. Eventually we’ll also nail down gravity and inertia—it’s only a matter of time IF Western civ can keep things going long enough.

We’re in a race between making a fool-proof world, and the fools that would bring it down (wherein lies the threatdown—fools and foolish behavior for short term gain). Y’all know the rest of the quote. -cp

cold pizza added these pithy words on 09 Oct 06 at 5:32 pm

check this one out!

vijay added these pithy words on 09 Oct 06 at 7:05 pm
Return to Top

Coming Anarchy’s Threatdown

Posted on 05 Oct 06 by Chirol. Subscribe to follow comments on this post. Both comments and pings are currently closed.

DISCUSSION / RECENT ACTIVITY

TAGS / TOPICS AND REGIONS