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	<title>Comments on: First&#160;Contact</title>
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	<description>Speak Victorian, Think Pagan</description>
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		<title>By: Tracy W</title>
		<link>http://cominganarchy.com/2006/09/06/first-contact/comment-page-1/#comment-128975</link>
		<dc:creator>Tracy W</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 25 Sep 2006 02:18:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.cominganarchy.com/?p=2141#comment-128975</guid>
		<description>First contacts between Europeans and NZ Maori were a mixed bag, with some murders and some successful trades, depending on different tribes. 

I have read an account by an old Maori man of Captain Cook&#039;s arrival as he saw it as a young boy. While there were a lot of intervening decades between his experience and it being recorded, the tribe doesn&#039;t seem to have regarded it as an out-of-context event (though they did think the sailors were goblins because they rowed with their backs to the direction they were going in, and thus presumably had eyes in the backs of their heads).

The Maori did relatively well in contact with Europeans - this appears to be because the chieftain Te Raparaha and a mate of his went to England early on to visit George III. Te Raparaha asked for muskets, George III refused but gave them gifts which Te Raparaha exchanged for muskets in Sydney on the way back. Back in NZ, he started a war of revenge and invasion that threatened other Maori tribes (iwi) so badly that they shortly either managed to trade with Europeans for more muskets or wound up dead and/or enslaved. The Maori adapted their tactics to muskets and figured out how to build musket-proof forts. 

So when the Europeans started arriving as settlers they were surrounded by tribes of armed and experienced warriors.  This made things a bit politer and there was a lot of inter-marriage. The British army only won the Land Wars a couple of decades later because they had better logistic support and some Maori iwi sided with the British. 

Of course the Maori were devastated by European diseases, which weakened them militarily as well. 

Judging by this experience, if we can draw any conclusions from one event, if someone makes first contact with Earth, our priority should be to get our hands on their weapons as soon as possible.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>First contacts between Europeans and NZ Maori were a mixed bag, with some murders and some successful trades, depending on different tribes. </p>

<p>I have read an account by an old Maori man of Captain Cook&#8217;s arrival as he saw it as a young boy. While there were a lot of intervening decades between his experience and it being recorded, the tribe doesn&#8217;t seem to have regarded it as an out-of-context event (though they did think the sailors were goblins because they rowed with their backs to the direction they were going in, and thus presumably had eyes in the backs of their heads).</p>

<p>The Maori did relatively well in contact with Europeans &#8211; this appears to be because the chieftain Te Raparaha and a mate of his went to England early on to visit George <span class="caps">III.</span> Te Raparaha asked for muskets, George <span class="caps">III </span>refused but gave them gifts which Te Raparaha exchanged for muskets in Sydney on the way back. Back in <span class="caps">NZ, </span>he started a war of revenge and invasion that threatened other Maori tribes (iwi) so badly that they shortly either managed to trade with Europeans for more muskets or wound up dead and/or enslaved. The Maori adapted their tactics to muskets and figured out how to build musket-proof forts. </p>

<p>So when the Europeans started arriving as settlers they were surrounded by tribes of armed and experienced warriors.  This made things a bit politer and there was a lot of inter-marriage. The British army only won the Land Wars a couple of decades later because they had better logistic support and some Maori iwi sided with the British. </p>

<p>Of course the Maori were devastated by European diseases, which weakened them militarily as well. </p>

<p>Judging by this experience, if we can draw any conclusions from one event, if someone makes first contact with Earth, our priority should be to get our hands on their weapons as soon as possible.</p>]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: lirelou</title>
		<link>http://cominganarchy.com/2006/09/06/first-contact/comment-page-1/#comment-122780</link>
		<dc:creator>lirelou</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 08 Sep 2006 00:47:57 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>I highly recommend the Canadian film &quot;Black Robe&quot; for anyone interested in a reenactment of such a scenario. Made in the days when Canadians could view the &quot;natives&quot; as humans, rather than noble savages living in harmony with environment a la the average American film tripe. The natives, seeing their first while men, did not assume they were enemies, but the question &quot;what good are they to us&quot; soon surfaced.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I highly recommend the Canadian film &#8220;Black Robe&#8221; for anyone interested in a reenactment of such a scenario. Made in the days when Canadians could view the &#8220;natives&#8221; as humans, rather than noble savages living in harmony with environment a la the average American film tripe. The natives, seeing their first while men, did not assume they were enemies, but the question &#8220;what good are they to us&#8221; soon surfaced.</p>]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Elizabeth</title>
		<link>http://cominganarchy.com/2006/09/06/first-contact/comment-page-1/#comment-122560</link>
		<dc:creator>Elizabeth</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 07 Sep 2006 00:17:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.cominganarchy.com/?p=2141#comment-122560</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m reading The Third Chimpanzee right now.  Diamond gives a number of less-than-benign first contacts.  The vast majority of &quot;friendly&quot; first contacts end up with the extermination of one group or the other (see Guns, Germs, and Steel) in any case.  However we need to keep in mind the context in which a first contact is likely to occur:

1) The contacter group must necessarily have recently made technological advances or grown in wealth which allowed it to access previously inaccessable areas.

2) In nearly all cases, the contacter is more powerful, technologically, than the contactee.  Otherwise, it would have happened the other way round (though occasionally, I suppose that does or could happen).

3) In almost all human societies, we see evidence of malicious as well as benign leadership and behaviour among the individuals, therefore we have no reason to believe that any single person or society&#039;s motives would be entirely harmless.  In the best case scenario, the contacter would work in its own best short &lt;i&gt;and long term&lt;/i&gt; interest.  However that is also very unlikely.

Therefore, it seems very likely that if you are the contacted, you would have two options: either exterminate the contacter entirely, so that they could send nobody back, or hope to make a beneficial peace for your own personal benefit, at the expense of your tribe.  I think that Diamond has also noticed this, which is why in TTC he pokes fun at people eager to make &quot;first contact&quot; with extraterrestrials.

However, I would say that this is very much a case isolated to first contacts.  You would not want to adopt this approach in the case of sudden increased contact, because there is the additional likelihood of mutually beneficial cooperation among more equal societies, especially if both can see that the &lt;i&gt;other&lt;/i&gt; society also sees the benefit.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m reading The Third Chimpanzee right now.  Diamond gives a number of less-than-benign first contacts.  The vast majority of &#8220;friendly&#8221; first contacts end up with the extermination of one group or the other (see Guns, Germs, and Steel) in any case.  However we need to keep in mind the context in which a first contact is likely to occur:</p>

<p>1) The contacter group must necessarily have recently made technological advances or grown in wealth which allowed it to access previously inaccessable areas.</p>

<p>2) In nearly all cases, the contacter is more powerful, technologically, than the contactee.  Otherwise, it would have happened the other way round (though occasionally, I suppose that does or could happen).</p>

<p>3) In almost all human societies, we see evidence of malicious as well as benign leadership and behaviour among the individuals, therefore we have no reason to believe that any single person or society&#8217;s motives would be entirely harmless.  In the best case scenario, the contacter would work in its own best short <i>and long term</i> interest.  However that is also very unlikely.</p>

<p>Therefore, it seems very likely that if you are the contacted, you would have two options: either exterminate the contacter entirely, so that they could send nobody back, or hope to make a beneficial peace for your own personal benefit, at the expense of your tribe.  I think that Diamond has also noticed this, which is why in <span class="caps">TTC </span>he pokes fun at people eager to make &#8220;first contact&#8221; with extraterrestrials.</p>

<p>However, I would say that this is very much a case isolated to first contacts.  You would not want to adopt this approach in the case of sudden increased contact, because there is the additional likelihood of mutually beneficial cooperation among more equal societies, especially if both can see that the <i>other</i> society also sees the benefit.</p>]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: von Kaufman-Turkestansky</title>
		<link>http://cominganarchy.com/2006/09/06/first-contact/comment-page-1/#comment-122522</link>
		<dc:creator>von Kaufman-Turkestansky</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 06 Sep 2006 17:47:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.cominganarchy.com/?p=2141#comment-122522</guid>
		<description>Star Trek makes it seem all so easy. Universal Translators are a lot of help. 

At first glance it seems impossible to decipher a language with no common vocabulary. But after a while you begin to pick meanings out of the jumble. I speak several Indo-European languages well, with a bit of experience in some other Indo European languages, but on my recent trip to Hungary I thought at first I would be stumped... but after a short time I could begin to pick out works, and make a few rudimentary connections. In short, it became less intimidating (I know that this is not exciting news to those who speak Japanese for example)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Star Trek makes it seem all so easy. Universal Translators are a lot of help. </p>

<p>At first glance it seems impossible to decipher a language with no common vocabulary. But after a while you begin to pick meanings out of the jumble. I speak several Indo-European languages well, with a bit of experience in some other Indo European languages, but on my recent trip to Hungary I thought at first I would be stumped&#8230; but after a short time I could begin to pick out works, and make a few rudimentary connections. In short, it became less intimidating (I know that this is not exciting news to those who speak Japanese for example)</p>]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: sun bin</title>
		<link>http://cominganarchy.com/2006/09/06/first-contact/comment-page-1/#comment-122474</link>
		<dc:creator>sun bin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 06 Sep 2006 15:29:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.cominganarchy.com/?p=2141#comment-122474</guid>
		<description>it really depends on each tribe&#039;s own history.

Diamond went to PNG, where tribes are familiar with cannibalism neighbors, and perhaps also heard but the horrible stories of white colonists.

In other parts of the world, first contacts are in general very benign.
1) native american assisting Mayflower
2) Zheng He&#039;s trip in Indian ocean had more friendly encounters than fights
others such as Colombus&#039; landing in the Carribean.

If you try to documents these encounters in history, you should find first contacts have been quite benign.

things only turned sour when there is competition for resources. (again in PNG, resources are more limited than in the Americas when colonists arrive)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>it really depends on each tribe&#8217;s own history.</p>

<p>Diamond went to <span class="caps">PNG, </span>where tribes are familiar with cannibalism neighbors, and perhaps also heard but the horrible stories of white colonists.</p>

<p>In other parts of the world, first contacts are in general very benign.<br />
1) native american assisting Mayflower<br />
2) Zheng He&#8217;s trip in Indian ocean had more friendly encounters than fights<br />
others such as Colombus&#8217; landing in the Carribean.</p>

<p>If you try to documents these encounters in history, you should find first contacts have been quite benign.</p>

<p>things only turned sour when there is competition for resources. (again in <span class="caps">PNG, </span>resources are more limited than in the Americas when colonists arrive)</p>]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Dr. Alfred Russel Wallace</title>
		<link>http://cominganarchy.com/2006/09/06/first-contact/comment-page-1/#comment-122458</link>
		<dc:creator>Dr. Alfred Russel Wallace</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 06 Sep 2006 12:29:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.cominganarchy.com/?p=2141#comment-122458</guid>
		<description>Its not only one way &quot;â€œ some believe that Australia&#039;s heroic Bourke and Wills died from eating unprocessed Nardoo fern on their return trip after crossing the island continent from south to north 
http://www.ansci.cornell.edu/plants/toxicagents/thiaminase/thiaminase.html#thia10. 
The natives apparently showed the fern was edible by offering baked cakes. The heroic pair preferred it raw (Healthy eating? Laziness?) and may well have succumbed to beri-beri, vitamin B1 deficiency induced by a potent enzyme in the raw fern that is inactivated by cooking. All cultures have valuable knowledge&quot;Ã‚Â¦ but it is a challenge to separate the dross from the gold.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Its not only one way &#8220;&acirc;€œ some believe that Australia&#8217;s heroic Bourke and Wills died from eating unprocessed Nardoo fern on their return trip after crossing the island continent from south to north <br />
<a href="http://www.ansci.cornell.edu/plants/toxicagents/thiaminase/thiaminase.html#thia10">http://www.ansci.cornell.edu/plants/toxicagents/thiaminase/thiaminase.html#thia10</a>. <br />
The natives apparently showed the fern was edible by offering baked cakes. The heroic pair preferred it raw (Healthy eating? Laziness?) and may well have succumbed to beri-beri, vitamin B1 deficiency induced by a potent enzyme in the raw fern that is inactivated by cooking. All cultures have valuable knowledge&#8221;&Atilde;‚&Acirc;&brvbar; but it is a challenge to separate the dross from the gold.</p>]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: moorethanthis</title>
		<link>http://cominganarchy.com/2006/09/06/first-contact/comment-page-1/#comment-122452</link>
		<dc:creator>moorethanthis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 06 Sep 2006 11:08:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.cominganarchy.com/?p=2141#comment-122452</guid>
		<description>Japan did have contact with the outside world before Perry&#039;s expedition - there were intermittent sea voyages before the &lt;a href=&quot;http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sakoku&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;isloation policy&lt;/a&gt; was enacted in 1641, and even during it Japan would trade goods and technology with the Dutch at Dejima. The decision to isolate itself came from domestic considerations, and a desire to protect the shogunate against &quot;instability&quot; from the outside world. The opening up of the country was a trade-off between domestic stability (an ineffective one, since the shogunate collapsed anyway) and subjection by Western powers.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Japan did have contact with the outside world before Perry&#8217;s expedition &#8211; there were intermittent sea voyages before the <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sakoku">isloation policy</a> was enacted in 1641, and even during it Japan would trade goods and technology with the Dutch at Dejima. The decision to isolate itself came from domestic considerations, and a desire to protect the shogunate against &#8220;instability&#8221; from the outside world. The opening up of the country was a trade-off between domestic stability (an ineffective one, since the shogunate collapsed anyway) and subjection by Western powers.</p>]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Dan Nexon</title>
		<link>http://cominganarchy.com/2006/09/06/first-contact/comment-page-1/#comment-122377</link>
		<dc:creator>Dan Nexon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 06 Sep 2006 04:24:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.cominganarchy.com/?p=2141#comment-122377</guid>
		<description>Called by anthropologists? Since when? The wikipedia entry indicates the term was coined by Iain M. Bank&#039;s in his penultimate Culture-series novel, &lt;i&gt;Excession&lt;/i&gt; (a damn fine read, by the way).

Was the Japanese encounter with Perry an Outside Context Problem? Didn&#039;t the Japanese government had contact with intermittent ships before and some sense of their own technical inferiority? Contrast with Bank&#039;s example of an OCP or his actual plot involving one in &lt;i&gt;Excession&lt;/i&gt;.

I think PTJ is writing an piece on OCPs for Clyde Wilcox&#039;s new book on politics and science fiction.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Called by anthropologists? Since when? The wikipedia entry indicates the term was coined by Iain M. Bank&#8217;s in his penultimate Culture-series novel, <i>Excession</i> (a damn fine read, by the way).</p>

<p>Was the Japanese encounter with Perry an Outside Context Problem? Didn&#8217;t the Japanese government had contact with intermittent ships before and some sense of their own technical inferiority? Contrast with Bank&#8217;s example of an <span class="caps">OCP </span>or his actual plot involving one in <i>Excession</i>.</p>

<p>I think <span class="caps">PTJ </span>is writing an piece on <span class="caps">OCP</span>s for Clyde Wilcox&#8217;s new book on politics and science fiction.</p>]]></content:encoded>
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