Comments on: If war broke out… http://cominganarchy.com/2006/07/24/if-war-broke-out/ Speak Victorian, Think Pagan Mon, 22 Mar 2010 02:04:45 -0700 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.8.6 hourly 1 By: moorethanthis http://cominganarchy.com/2006/07/24/if-war-broke-out/comment-page-1/#comment-114853 moorethanthis Mon, 31 Jul 2006 00:23:26 +0000 http://www.cominganarchy.com/?p=2056#comment-114853 Curzon: What I was trying to say was, national pride is more to do with the experience of Japan itself than any power-projection scenario. People would always ask me why I came to study Japanese, what I liked about Japan, what my favourite food was, etc etc. To a citizen of a strong power-projecting nation such as the U.S. this may seem a little off, but the same mindset is in place in many European countries. From the same cause as well; the remoteness of war from the public imagination. To your last sentence; my host family would happily sing "Kimigayo" to me. Regardless of historical baggage, it was a beautiful-sounding song. Curzon: What I was trying to say was, national pride is more to do with the experience of Japan itself than any power-projection scenario. People would always ask me why I came to study Japanese, what I liked about Japan, what my favourite food was, etc etc. To a citizen of a strong power-projecting nation such as the U.S. this may seem a little off, but the same mindset is in place in many European countries. From the same cause as well; the remoteness of war from the public imagination.

To your last sentence; my host family would happily sing “Kimigayo” to me. Regardless of historical baggage, it was a beautiful-sounding song.

]]> By: sun bin http://cominganarchy.com/2006/07/24/if-war-broke-out/comment-page-1/#comment-114662 sun bin Sun, 30 Jul 2006 06:55:49 +0000 http://www.cominganarchy.com/?p=2056#comment-114662 "In Japanese culture it's considered polite to put down things associated with yourself and your group while elevating things associated with others and their group." true. IMO japanese flag and anthem are both very fine artistic works. even the (allegedly militaristic) naval march is great music. “In Japanese culture it’s considered polite to put down things associated with yourself and your group while elevating things associated with others and their group.”

true.

IMO japanese flag and anthem are both very fine artistic works. even the (allegedly militaristic) naval march is great music.

]]> By: Younghusband http://cominganarchy.com/2006/07/24/if-war-broke-out/comment-page-1/#comment-114559 Younghusband Sat, 29 Jul 2006 21:04:30 +0000 http://www.cominganarchy.com/?p=2056#comment-114559 Ken, I think it goes deeper than that. Plus, when the Japanese look at the Koreans and Chinese, their very patriotic neighbours, they are kind of repulsed. Like "Whoa these guys are crazy!" There is a fear that patriotism could take them back to the 30's. Ken, I think it goes deeper than that. Plus, when the Japanese look at the Koreans and Chinese, their very patriotic neighbours, they are kind of repulsed. Like “Whoa these guys are crazy!” There is a fear that patriotism could take them back to the 30’s.

]]> By: Ken Hagler http://cominganarchy.com/2006/07/24/if-war-broke-out/comment-page-1/#comment-114555 Ken Hagler Sat, 29 Jul 2006 20:21:58 +0000 http://www.cominganarchy.com/?p=2056#comment-114555 Curzon, that's got nothing to do with national pride or lack thereof. In Japanese culture it's considered polite to put down things associated with yourself and your group while elevating things associated with others and their group. Curzon, that’s got nothing to do with national pride or lack thereof. In Japanese culture it’s considered polite to put down things associated with yourself and your group while elevating things associated with others and their group.

]]> By: Curzon http://cominganarchy.com/2006/07/24/if-war-broke-out/comment-page-1/#comment-114455 Curzon Sat, 29 Jul 2006 12:08:54 +0000 http://www.cominganarchy.com/?p=2056#comment-114455 MTT: Japan has an awareness of its nation as a cultural entity, with a unique language and culture, but there is no "national pride." How many times did I hear people say things like, "our national anthem sucks" and "our flag is so ugly." MTT: Japan has an awareness of its nation as a cultural entity, with a unique language and culture, but there is no “national pride.” How many times did I hear people say things like, “our national anthem sucks” and “our flag is so ugly.”

]]> By: moorethanthis http://cominganarchy.com/2006/07/24/if-war-broke-out/comment-page-1/#comment-114454 moorethanthis Sat, 29 Jul 2006 10:29:53 +0000 http://www.cominganarchy.com/?p=2056#comment-114454 Don't agree with Curzon about "self-loathing". What I saw during my time in Japan was a low-key pride in their country, where political and military aspects were left out of the picture. A more recent "defence consciousness" survey we studied in class asked a more explicit question: "What would you do if your country was invaded?" Even then, 26% of Japanese people put "don't know". Still, with China's regional ambitions and North Korea's missile program, we're going to see a more assertive Japan in future. How it turns out will depend on whether someone like Abe as PM will do this in a divise or consensus-seeking manner. Don’t agree with Curzon about “self-loathing”. What I saw during my time in Japan was a low-key pride in their country, where political and military aspects were left out of the picture. A more recent “defence consciousness” survey we studied in class asked a more explicit question: “What would you do if your country was invaded?” Even then, 26% of Japanese people put “don’t know”. Still, with China’s regional ambitions and North Korea’s missile program, we’re going to see a more assertive Japan in future. How it turns out will depend on whether someone like Abe as PM will do this in a divise or consensus-seeking manner.

]]> By: heirabbit http://cominganarchy.com/2006/07/24/if-war-broke-out/comment-page-1/#comment-113909 heirabbit Wed, 26 Jul 2006 14:37:04 +0000 http://www.cominganarchy.com/?p=2056#comment-113909 I think the survey is in fact vague and invalid, but what it suggests seems true. If I had to make up numbers about rabid patriotism for each country, I would probably come up with a list like this. But until there's a valid survey we'll never know what the truth is. I think the survey is in fact vague and invalid, but what it suggests seems true. If I had to make up numbers about rabid patriotism for each country, I would probably come up with a list like this. But until there’s a valid survey we’ll never know what the truth is.

]]> By: Japan Probe http://cominganarchy.com/2006/07/24/if-war-broke-out/comment-page-1/#comment-113881 Japan Probe Wed, 26 Jul 2006 10:15:02 +0000 http://www.cominganarchy.com/?p=2056#comment-113881 [...] A lot of people like to claim that militarism is on the rise again in Japan; that right-wing politicians are trying to rebuild Japan’s military as a force for imperialism in Asia.  While I agree that the Japanese government is becoming more defense-minded, as this survey shows, it will take a gargantuan leap to create the monster that so many journalists like to say is on the horizon. [...] [...] A lot of people like to claim that militarism is on the rise again in Japan; that right-wing politicians are trying to rebuild Japan’s military as a force for imperialism in Asia.  While I agree that the Japanese government is becoming more defense-minded, as this survey shows, it will take a gargantuan leap to create the monster that so many journalists like to say is on the horizon. [...]

]]> By: sun bin http://cominganarchy.com/2006/07/24/if-war-broke-out/comment-page-1/#comment-113796 sun bin Tue, 25 Jul 2006 19:01:43 +0000 http://www.cominganarchy.com/?p=2056#comment-113796 @2c i know it is way off-topic, but, why is a port in myannmar blocking the "japanese oil"? why is myanmar located at a 'very critical point' of the sea route? myanmar is not singapore. has any single japanese oil tanker stopped at a myanmar port for refuel? or ever entered the myanmar water? the sea is large, the routes are wide, unlike car lanes. the port in myanmar is, as everybody believes, a hedge for china to get its oil in case malacca is blocked. yes, if you put yourself into china's shoes, and as you said, it wants to reunite with taiwan, then every move is consistent with a preparation for taking back taiwan, or about creating a credible threat against taiwan moving away toward declaring independence. @2c

i know it is way off-topic, but, why is a port in myannmar blocking the “japanese oil”? why is myanmar located at a ‘very critical point’ of the sea route? myanmar is not singapore. has any single japanese oil tanker stopped at a myanmar port for refuel? or ever entered the myanmar water?

the sea is large, the routes are wide, unlike car lanes.
the port in myanmar is, as everybody believes, a hedge for china to get its oil in case malacca is blocked.

yes, if you put yourself into china’s shoes, and as you said, it wants to reunite with taiwan, then every move is consistent with a preparation for taking back taiwan, or about creating a credible threat against taiwan moving away toward declaring independence.

]]> By: Two Cents http://cominganarchy.com/2006/07/24/if-war-broke-out/comment-page-1/#comment-113768 Two Cents Tue, 25 Jul 2006 14:21:35 +0000 http://www.cominganarchy.com/?p=2056#comment-113768 Sun bin, I do not think the China is behind the present anti-US movement in South Korea. However, I think they will see it as a chance to gain more footage in the peninsula. They have presently got Myammer, a country located in a very critical point in the sea route for Japanese oil from the Mideast, under its wings. It's also evident that they want Taiwan. By "boss" and "showdown" I don't mean the the territorial invasion made by Japan in the 20th century, but more like a expansion of their sphere of political influence. Sun bin,
I do not think the China is behind the present anti-US movement in South Korea. However, I think they will see it as a chance to gain more footage in the peninsula. They have presently got Myammer, a country located in a very critical point in the sea route for Japanese oil from the Mideast, under its wings. It’s also evident that they want Taiwan. By “boss” and “showdown” I don’t mean the the territorial invasion made by Japan in the 20th century, but more like a expansion of their sphere of political influence.

]]> By: sun bin http://cominganarchy.com/2006/07/24/if-war-broke-out/comment-page-1/#comment-113712 sun bin Tue, 25 Jul 2006 07:12:29 +0000 http://www.cominganarchy.com/?p=2056#comment-113712 bq. "China wants to be the boss of Asia, ... the next step for China will be to try and sever the bond between the US and Japan, which translates into more sexy Chinese agents snaring Japanese politicians (like the late Hashimoto) and increased anti-Japanese lobby activities in the US." LOL, that is the most hilarious conspiracy theory in the month.

“China wants to be the boss of Asia, … the next step for China will be to try and sever the bond between the US and Japan, which translates into more sexy Chinese agents snaring Japanese politicians (like the late Hashimoto) and increased anti-Japanese lobby activities in the US.“

LOL, that is the most hilarious conspiracy theory in the month.

]]> By: Elizabeth http://cominganarchy.com/2006/07/24/if-war-broke-out/comment-page-1/#comment-113709 Elizabeth Tue, 25 Jul 2006 06:31:20 +0000 http://www.cominganarchy.com/?p=2056#comment-113709 Mutantfrog- hear, hear. That's exactly what I was going to say. I probably wouln't fight anyway because I don't see that as my role or particular talent- in war you always need humanitarians, nurses, etc.- but I would certainly sympathise. I feel totally different about responding to provocations by invading other countries, and even more so about unprovoked invasions of other countries. Mutantfrog- hear, hear. That’s exactly what I was going to say. I probably wouln’t fight anyway because I don’t see that as my role or particular talent- in war you always need humanitarians, nurses, etc.- but I would certainly sympathise.

I feel totally different about responding to provocations by invading other countries, and even more so about unprovoked invasions of other countries.

]]> By: Two Cents http://cominganarchy.com/2006/07/24/if-war-broke-out/comment-page-1/#comment-113671 Two Cents Tue, 25 Jul 2006 03:44:08 +0000 http://www.cominganarchy.com/?p=2056#comment-113671 Curzon, As I have said in my previous comment, all ground-based TV networks are required by law at the present to be neutral (although in reality they aren't), so it will be difficult for a heavily-opinionated, purely conservative news channel to appear. While the majority of the Japanese are willing to tolerate fanatically liberal junk, some will not allow "dangerous" opinions that might lead Japan into the path of war again. The tide might change if the NORKs continue with their aggresive behavior. There are satellite TV channels like the Channel Sakura　(http://www.ch-sakura.jp/index.html) which is a strongly opinionated conservative channel mainly along the line of Seiron and Shokun, the most conservative opinion magazines in Japan, but I don't know how much support they have at present. They are virtually non-existent to an average Japanese. Maybe, with the appearance of more channels with the ground-based digital TV system, such demands might be answered. Although I don't see a conservative network intended for a wide audience appearing anytime soon, there is a program by Kansai Yomiuri network called "Takajin-no-sokomade-itte-iinkai (Takajin's speaking without reservation)," which takes the form of a debate on current affairs between guests. It's mainly an arena for clobbering the sayoku (crazy leftists) and for a program aired on Sunday afternoon, gets incredibly high ratings of 15-20%. It might be an indication that people are fed up with the strictly moral and politically correct stance of the mainstrema media. But it's only aired in the Kansai area, since such vulgar talks will never be allowed in culturally sophisticated Tokyo. Phil, Of course it's Japan - the expansionist, imperialistic, and evil-minded country just waiting for the next opportunity to invade China! At least, that's what they preach to its people, but I believe they are preparing for the ultimate showdown versus the US. China wants to be the boss of Asia, and it can't while the US presence in Asia is at its current level. Since South Korea has basically annoyed the US into possibly reconsidering the alliance, the next step for China will be to try and sever the bond between the US and Japan, which translates into more sexy Chinese agents snaring Japanese politicians (like the late Hashimoto) and increased anti-Japanese lobby activities in the US. Curzon,
As I have said in my previous comment, all ground-based TV networks are required by law at the present to be neutral (although in reality they aren’t), so it will be difficult for a heavily-opinionated, purely conservative news channel to appear. While the majority of the Japanese are willing to tolerate fanatically liberal junk, some will not allow “dangerous” opinions that might lead Japan into the path of war again. The tide might change if the NORKs continue with their aggresive behavior.

There are satellite TV channels like the Channel Sakura　(http://www.ch-sakura.jp/index.html) which is a strongly opinionated conservative channel mainly along the line of Seiron and Shokun, the most conservative opinion magazines in Japan, but I don’t know how much support they have at present. They are virtually non-existent to an average Japanese. Maybe, with the appearance of more channels with the ground-based digital TV system, such demands might be answered.

Although I don’t see a conservative network intended for a wide audience appearing anytime soon, there is a program by Kansai Yomiuri network called “Takajin-no-sokomade-itte-iinkai (Takajin’s speaking without reservation),” which takes the form of a debate on current affairs between guests. It’s mainly an arena for clobbering the sayoku (crazy leftists) and for a program aired on Sunday afternoon, gets incredibly high ratings of 15-20%. It might be an indication that people are fed up with the strictly moral and politically correct stance of the mainstrema media. But it’s only aired in the Kansai area, since such vulgar talks will never be allowed in culturally sophisticated Tokyo.

Phil,
Of course it’s Japan – the expansionist, imperialistic, and evil-minded country just waiting for the next opportunity to invade China!
At least, that’s what they preach to its people, but I believe they are preparing for the ultimate showdown versus the US. China wants to be the boss of Asia, and it can’t while the US presence in Asia is at its current level. Since South Korea has basically annoyed the US into possibly reconsidering the alliance, the next step for China will be to try and sever the bond between the US and Japan, which translates into more sexy Chinese agents snaring Japanese politicians (like the late Hashimoto) and increased anti-Japanese lobby activities in the US.

]]> By: sun bin http://cominganarchy.com/2006/07/24/if-war-broke-out/comment-page-1/#comment-113667 sun bin Tue, 25 Jul 2006 02:34:50 +0000 http://www.cominganarchy.com/?p=2056#comment-113667 @phil, i think curzon's last paragraph (about control) and mutantfrog already answered your question. but to be specific, in the case that you really do not know that part of the world, china was invaded by almost all powers before the 1949 revolution (including the US in the boxer's uprising, though in that case the boxers were also responsible for the wars). after WWII, McArthur threatened to cross the Korean border, Vietnam was was part of the containment scheme. USSR was the biggest threat later, with a few border skirmishes. India invaded in 1962......yes, there is an unhealthy victim sentiment in China, and in its education, but these are the facts that helped fuel the education. even today, Japan has a much stronger armed force than China, and the Bush govt has been executing a containment strategy. as for the other countries in the list, you can explain each one if you try to understand the country. eg Vietnam, i guess i do not need to elaborate. again, this is, of course not the full story. i refer you to mutantfrog's comment above, instead of the simplistic view in our exchange. @phil,

i think curzon’s last paragraph (about control) and mutantfrog already answered your question.

but to be specific, in the case that you really do not know that part of the world, china was invaded by almost all powers before the 1949 revolution (including the US in the boxer’s uprising, though in that case the boxers were also responsible for the wars).

after WWII, McArthur threatened to cross the Korean border, Vietnam was was part of the containment scheme. USSR was the biggest threat later, with a few border skirmishes. India invaded in 1962……yes, there is an unhealthy victim sentiment in China, and in its education, but these are the facts that helped fuel the education.

even today, Japan has a much stronger armed force than China, and the Bush govt has been executing a containment strategy.

as for the other countries in the list, you can explain each one if you try to understand the country. eg Vietnam, i guess i do not need to elaborate.

again, this is, of course not the full story. i refer you to mutantfrog’s comment above, instead of the simplistic view in our exchange.

]]> By: Mutantfrog http://cominganarchy.com/2006/07/24/if-war-broke-out/comment-page-1/#comment-113660 Mutantfrog Mon, 24 Jul 2006 22:42:53 +0000 http://www.cominganarchy.com/?p=2056#comment-113660 "If war broke out" is really much too vague. I think "if your country were invaded" would be a better test, so as to avoid a discussion over the rightness of military adventurism like Vietnam, Iraq etc, and cut right to the main issue at hand. I'm sure that some proportion, however large or small it is, of anti-war protestors would take a different view if it were a question of defending their home and not going halfway around the world for the sake of some poorly defined geopolitical goals. “If war broke out” is really much too vague. I think “if your country were invaded” would be a better test, so as to avoid a discussion over the rightness of military adventurism like Vietnam, Iraq etc, and cut right to the main issue at hand. I’m sure that some proportion, however large or small it is, of anti-war protestors would take a different view if it were a question of defending their home and not going halfway around the world for the sake of some poorly defined geopolitical goals.

]]> By: Curzon http://cominganarchy.com/2006/07/24/if-war-broke-out/comment-page-1/#comment-113634 Curzon Mon, 24 Jul 2006 21:39:12 +0000 http://www.cominganarchy.com/?p=2056#comment-113634 PJ: I prefer John Robb's label: "Global Nationalism Index.":http://globalguerrillas.typepad.com/johnrobb/2006/07/global_national.html PJ: I prefer John Robb’s label: Global Nationalism Index.

]]> By: phil jones http://cominganarchy.com/2006/07/24/if-war-broke-out/comment-page-1/#comment-113633 phil jones Mon, 24 Jul 2006 21:28:09 +0000 http://www.cominganarchy.com/?p=2056#comment-113633 So if the cause of being willing to fight is scary neighbours, who are China's? So if the cause of being willing to fight is scary neighbours, who are China’s?

]]> By: Curzon http://cominganarchy.com/2006/07/24/if-war-broke-out/comment-page-1/#comment-113631 Curzon Mon, 24 Jul 2006 20:50:25 +0000 http://www.cominganarchy.com/?p=2056#comment-113631 SB: <blockquote>"Ã¥Â?â€Å¾ÃƒÂ¥â€ÂºÃ‚½Ã¥â€ÂºÃ‚½Ã¦Â°â€ËœÃƒÂ£Ã‚?®æâ€Å¾Ã‚?è­˜ãâ€Å¡'調ãÂ?¹çâ€ÂºÃ‚¸Ã¤Âº'ãÂ?«æ¯â€?較ãÂ?™ãâ€Å¡â€Â¹ÃƒÂ£Ã¢â€šÂ¬Ã…’ä¸â€â€œÃƒÂ§â€Â¢Ã…’価値観調査ã€Â?ãÂ?Å’1981å¹´ãÂ?â€Â¹ÃƒÂ£â€Å¡â€Â°ÃƒÂ£Ã¢â€šÂ¬Ã‚?ãÂ?¾ãÂ?Ÿ1990å¹´ãÂ?â€Â¹ÃƒÂ£â€Å¡â€Â°ÃƒÂ£Ã‚?¯ï¼â€Â¢ÃƒÂ¥Ã‚¹Â´Ã£Â?â€?ãÂ?¨ãÂ?«è¡Œãâ€Å¡Ã‚?ãâ€Å¡Ã…’ãÂ?¦ãÂ?â€Å¾ÃƒÂ£â€Å¡â€Â¹ÃƒÂ£Ã¢â€šÂ¬â€Å¡ÃƒÂ¥Ã‚?â€Å¾ÃƒÂ¥â€ÂºÃ‚½Ã¦Â¯Å½Ã£Â?«åâ€Â¦Ã‚¨Ã¥â€ÂºÃ‚½Ã£Â?®18歳以上ãÂ?®çâ€?·å¥³1,000ãâ€Å¡Ã‚µÃ£Æ’³ãƒ—ルç¨â€Â¹ÃƒÂ¥Ã‚ºÂ¦Ã£Â?®åâ€ÂºÃ…¾Ã¥Â?Žãâ€Å¡'基本ãÂ?¨ãÂ?—ãÂ?Ÿå€â€Â¹ÃƒÂ¤Ã‚ºÂºÃ¥Â?˜ä½Â?ãÂ?®æâ€Å¾Ã‚?識調査ãÂ?§ãÂ?â€Å¡ÃƒÂ£â€Å¡â€Â¹"Â?</blockquote> Rough translation: The "World Values Report", which compares an examination of the consciousness of citizens from countries across the world, was conducted in 1981, and every five years since 1990. The base sample is of approximately 1,000 men and women individuals over the age of 18 in every country surveyed. As for a control experiment, it's hard to draw any conclusions. Different citizenry will react to different events and wars differently. There are too many organic factors at play to apply real rules. SB:

“Ã¥Â?â€Å¾ÃƒÂ¥â€ÂºÃ‚½Ã¥â€ÂºÃ‚½Ã¦Â°â€ËœÃƒÂ£Ã‚?®æâ€Å¾Ã‚?è­˜ãâ€Å¡’調ãÂ?¹çâ€ÂºÃ‚¸Ã¤Âº’ãÂ?«æ¯â€?較ãÂ?™ãâ€Å¡â€Â¹ÃƒÂ£Ã¢â€šÂ¬Ã…’ä¸â€â€œÃƒÂ§â€Â¢Ã…’価値観調査ã€Â?ãÂ?Å’1981å¹´ãÂ?â€Â¹ÃƒÂ£â€Å¡â€Â°ÃƒÂ£Ã¢â€šÂ¬Ã‚?ãÂ?¾ãÂ?Ÿ1990å¹´ãÂ?â€Â¹ÃƒÂ£â€Å¡â€Â°ÃƒÂ£Ã‚?¯ï¼â€Â¢ÃƒÂ¥Ã‚¹Â´Ã£Â?â€?ãÂ?¨ãÂ?«è¡Œãâ€Å¡Ã‚?ãâ€Å¡Ã…’ãÂ?¦ãÂ?â€Å¾ÃƒÂ£â€Å¡â€Â¹ÃƒÂ£Ã¢â€šÂ¬â€Å¡ÃƒÂ¥Ã‚?â€Å¾ÃƒÂ¥â€ÂºÃ‚½Ã¦Â¯Å½Ã£Â?«åâ€Â¦Ã‚¨Ã¥â€ÂºÃ‚½Ã£Â?®18歳以上ãÂ?®çâ€?·å¥³1,000ãâ€Å¡Ã‚µÃ£Æ’³ãƒ—ルç¨â€Â¹ÃƒÂ¥Ã‚ºÂ¦Ã£Â?®åâ€ÂºÃ…¾Ã¥Â?Žãâ€Å¡’基本ãÂ?¨ãÂ?—ãÂ?Ÿå€â€Â¹ÃƒÂ¤Ã‚ºÂºÃ¥Â?˜ä½Â?ãÂ?®æâ€Å¾Ã‚?識調査ãÂ?§ãÂ?â€Å¡ÃƒÂ£â€Å¡â€Â¹”Â?

Rough translation: The “World Values Report”, which compares an examination of the consciousness of citizens from countries across the world, was conducted in 1981, and every five years since 1990. The base sample is of approximately 1,000 men and women individuals over the age of 18 in every country surveyed.

As for a control experiment, it’s hard to draw any conclusions. Different citizenry will react to different events and wars differently. There are too many organic factors at play to apply real rules.

]]> By: sun bin http://cominganarchy.com/2006/07/24/if-war-broke-out/comment-page-1/#comment-113628 sun bin Mon, 24 Jul 2006 19:36:26 +0000 http://www.cominganarchy.com/?p=2056#comment-113628 ok, here is the source, "world value survey":http://www.worldvaluessurvey.org/services/index.html different countries has been surveyed each year. ________yes___no___don't know____ no answer iraq 2004 35.2 ___ 59.4 ___0.6 _______4.8 perhaps losing a war has something to do with the answers? no? here is a 'control experiment', see how numbers change after losing a (arguably unjust) war? serbia 1996 71.7 __ 13.4 2001 74.7 __ 23.1 ok, here is the source, world value survey
different countries has been surveyed each year.

________yes___no___don’t know____ no answer

iraq
2004 35.2 ___ 59.4 ___0.6 _______4.8

perhaps losing a war has something to do with the answers?

no? here is a ‘control experiment’, see how numbers change after losing a (arguably unjust) war?

serbia
1996 71.7 __ 13.4
2001 74.7 __ 23.1

]]> By: sun bin http://cominganarchy.com/2006/07/24/if-war-broke-out/comment-page-1/#comment-113625 sun bin Mon, 24 Jul 2006 18:53:41 +0000 http://www.cominganarchy.com/?p=2056#comment-113625 are you sure the data is from 2000? not a compilation of different 1980, 1985, 1990 data? "Ã¥Â?â€Å¾ÃƒÂ¥â€ÂºÃ‚½Ã¥â€ÂºÃ‚½Ã¦Â°â€ËœÃƒÂ£Ã‚?®æâ€Å¾Ã‚?è­˜ãâ€Å¡'調ãÂ?¹çâ€ÂºÃ‚¸Ã¤Âº'ãÂ?«æ¯â€?較ãÂ?™ãâ€Å¡â€Â¹ÃƒÂ£Ã¢â€šÂ¬Ã…’ä¸â€â€œÃƒÂ§â€Â¢Ã…’価値観調査ã€Â?ãÂ?Å’1981å¹´ãÂ?â€Â¹ÃƒÂ£â€Å¡â€Â°ÃƒÂ£Ã¢â€šÂ¬Ã‚?ãÂ?¾ãÂ?Ÿ1990å¹´ãÂ?â€Â¹ÃƒÂ£â€Å¡â€Â°ÃƒÂ£Ã‚?¯ï¼â€Â¢ÃƒÂ¥Ã‚¹Â´Ã£Â?â€?ãÂ?¨ãÂ?«è¡Œãâ€Å¡Ã‚?ãâ€Å¡Ã…’ãÂ?¦ãÂ?â€Å¾ÃƒÂ£â€Å¡â€Â¹ÃƒÂ£Ã¢â€šÂ¬â€Å¡ÃƒÂ¥Ã‚?â€Å¾ÃƒÂ¥â€ÂºÃ‚½Ã¦Â¯Å½Ã£Â?«åâ€Â¦Ã‚¨Ã¥â€ÂºÃ‚½Ã£Â?®18歳以上ãÂ?®çâ€?·å¥³1,000ãâ€Å¡Ã‚µÃ£Æ’³ãƒ—ルç¨â€Â¹ÃƒÂ¥Ã‚ºÂ¦Ã£Â?®åâ€ÂºÃ…¾Ã¥Â?Žãâ€Å¡'基本ãÂ?¨ãÂ?—ãÂ?Ÿå€â€Â¹ÃƒÂ¤Ã‚ºÂºÃ¥Â?˜ä½Â?ãÂ?®æâ€Å¾Ã‚?識調査ãÂ?§ãÂ?â€Å¡ÃƒÂ£â€Å¡â€Â¹" are you sure the data is from 2000? not a compilation of different 1980, 1985, 1990 data?

“Ã¥Â?â€Å¾ÃƒÂ¥â€ÂºÃ‚½Ã¥â€ÂºÃ‚½Ã¦Â°â€ËœÃƒÂ£Ã‚?®æâ€Å¾Ã‚?è­˜ãâ€Å¡’調ãÂ?¹çâ€ÂºÃ‚¸Ã¤Âº’ãÂ?«æ¯â€?較ãÂ?™ãâ€Å¡â€Â¹ÃƒÂ£Ã¢â€šÂ¬Ã…’ä¸â€â€œÃƒÂ§â€Â¢Ã…’価値観調査ã€Â?ãÂ?Å’1981å¹´ãÂ?â€Â¹ÃƒÂ£â€Å¡â€Â°ÃƒÂ£Ã¢â€šÂ¬Ã‚?ãÂ?¾ãÂ?Ÿ1990å¹´ãÂ?â€Â¹ÃƒÂ£â€Å¡â€Â°ÃƒÂ£Ã‚?¯ï¼â€Â¢ÃƒÂ¥Ã‚¹Â´Ã£Â?â€?ãÂ?¨ãÂ?«è¡Œãâ€Å¡Ã‚?ãâ€Å¡Ã…’ãÂ?¦ãÂ?â€Å¾ÃƒÂ£â€Å¡â€Â¹ÃƒÂ£Ã¢â€šÂ¬â€Å¡ÃƒÂ¥Ã‚?â€Å¾ÃƒÂ¥â€ÂºÃ‚½Ã¦Â¯Å½Ã£Â?«åâ€Â¦Ã‚¨Ã¥â€ÂºÃ‚½Ã£Â?®18歳以上ãÂ?®çâ€?·å¥³1,000ãâ€Å¡Ã‚µÃ£Æ’³ãƒ—ルç¨â€Â¹ÃƒÂ¥Ã‚ºÂ¦Ã£Â?®åâ€ÂºÃ…¾Ã¥Â?Žãâ€Å¡’基本ãÂ?¨ãÂ?—ãÂ?Ÿå€â€Â¹ÃƒÂ¤Ã‚ºÂºÃ¥Â?˜ä½Â?ãÂ?®æâ€Å¾Ã‚?識調査ãÂ?§ãÂ?â€Å¡ÃƒÂ£â€Å¡â€Â¹”

]]> By: sun bin http://cominganarchy.com/2006/07/24/if-war-broke-out/comment-page-1/#comment-113623 sun bin Mon, 24 Jul 2006 18:38:44 +0000 http://www.cominganarchy.com/?p=2056#comment-113623 curzon, i bet if you ask anyone from Gallup, they could tell you the 'don't know' box does not solve the problem ken raised. but one can only do so much in a survey, without raising the complexity and scaring away the subjects...... curzon,

i bet if you ask anyone from Gallup, they could tell you the ‘don’t know’ box does not solve the problem ken raised.

but one can only do so much in a survey, without raising the complexity and scaring away the subjects……

]]> By: Curzon http://cominganarchy.com/2006/07/24/if-war-broke-out/comment-page-1/#comment-113622 Curzon Mon, 24 Jul 2006 18:28:11 +0000 http://www.cominganarchy.com/?p=2056#comment-113622 Ken: that's what the "don't know" box is for! (Note that Japan is the highest in that regard). Two Cents: Beyond the specific credibility of someone like Y. Kobayashi, I guess I'm asking if there is an "alternative" media on the horizon in Japan, i.e. most news programs have not yet adopted the American model of "news as entertainment" and retain the classic post-war model of news. That doesn't mean it's not biased -- the BBC is horrendously biased yet preserves a credible news format -- and I wonder if we'll ever see an opinionated, conservative news channel in Japan. I'm a Sankei reader... Alec: Too true. Ken: that’s what the “don’t know” box is for! (Note that Japan is the highest in that regard).

Two Cents: Beyond the specific credibility of someone like Y. Kobayashi, I guess I’m asking if there is an “alternative” media on the horizon in Japan, i.e. most news programs have not yet adopted the American model of “news as entertainment” and retain the classic post-war model of news. That doesn’t mean it’s not biased — the BBC is horrendously biased yet preserves a credible news format — and I wonder if we’ll ever see an opinionated, conservative news channel in Japan.

I’m a Sankei reader…

Alec: Too true.

]]> By: sun bin http://cominganarchy.com/2006/07/24/if-war-broke-out/comment-page-1/#comment-113618 sun bin Mon, 24 Jul 2006 18:11:18 +0000 http://www.cominganarchy.com/?p=2056#comment-113618 i was going to say what Ken Hagler just said. there are a lot of implicit assumptions taken by the subjects, which are very different for different countries, perhaps influenced by their own modern history. i was going to say what Ken Hagler just said.

there are a lot of implicit assumptions taken by the subjects, which are very different for different countries, perhaps influenced by their own modern history.

]]> By: alec http://cominganarchy.com/2006/07/24/if-war-broke-out/comment-page-1/#comment-113617 alec Mon, 24 Jul 2006 17:44:51 +0000 http://www.cominganarchy.com/?p=2056#comment-113617 In terms of the growing possibility of Japenese rearming, don't underestimate the influence of the US growing attempts to reassert itself in the region through Japan. Though I do not think they are directly pushing for rearmament, I do believe that at least the current administration would like to try to balance out China and North Korea. Especially with Taiwan a looming issue as China grows stronger and the US doesn't want to be caught on it's own in regional politics. In terms of the growing possibility of Japenese rearming, don’t underestimate the influence of the US growing attempts to reassert itself in the region through Japan. Though I do not think they are directly pushing for rearmament, I do believe that at least the current administration would like to try to balance out China and North Korea. Especially with Taiwan a looming issue as China grows stronger and the US doesn’t want to be caught on it’s own in regional politics.

]]> By: Alexander Augustinius http://cominganarchy.com/2006/07/24/if-war-broke-out/comment-page-1/#comment-113613 Alexander Augustinius Mon, 24 Jul 2006 17:35:50 +0000 http://www.cominganarchy.com/?p=2056#comment-113613 @ Chirol I presume the Germans will rely on the French to defend them? It would be interesting to see the pole by state in Germany. I suspect at least the East (and maybe the South) would opine differently than their counterparts in the burgeoning communism of former West Germany. @ all The comedy of the assault on Japan is the rampant and senseless nationalism of China and Korea. In conversation with even educated Chinese, there is a sense that military strength and national desire are the only determining factors in policy (as well as an apparently ubiquitous desire for "more food"). The Chinese seem content to nuclearize North Korea under the guise of national autonomy, but the does not extend the logic to Japan for raising a traditional army in the face of risks inherent to the neighborhood. China's "peaceful rise" has involved war with its western neighbors on a semi-regular basis, occupation of a large part of Turkestan, which it has Han-ized as matter of state policy, the violent occupation of Tibet, and a mania for occupation of Taipei. Aside from the nukey Koreans, China supplies ample reason for the Japanese to fear for their safety and respond accordingly. @ Chirol

I presume the Germans will rely on the French to defend them? It would be interesting to see the pole by state in Germany. I suspect at least the East (and maybe the South) would opine differently than their counterparts in the burgeoning communism of former West Germany.

@ all

The comedy of the assault on Japan is the rampant and senseless nationalism of China and Korea. In conversation with even educated Chinese, there is a sense that military strength and national desire are the only determining factors in policy (as well as an apparently ubiquitous desire for “more food”). The Chinese seem content to nuclearize North Korea under the guise of national autonomy, but the does not extend the logic to Japan for raising a traditional army in the face of risks inherent to the neighborhood.

China’s “peaceful rise” has involved war with its western neighbors on a semi-regular basis, occupation of a large part of Turkestan, which it has Han-ized as matter of state policy, the violent occupation of Tibet, and a mania for occupation of Taipei. Aside from the nukey Koreans, China supplies ample reason for the Japanese to fear for their safety and respond accordingly.

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