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Curzon
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Curzon

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May 31st, 2006

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Japan in the 21st century

Kyonje Park (ë°”¢ÃªÂ²Â½Ã¬Å¾Â¬) was born in Tokyo in 1948 to Korean parents. In a society where non-Japanese “Zainichi” were marginalized, Park worked hard to integrate and became a naturalized Japanese citizen while a student at Tokyo University, taking the name Shokei Arai (攓°äº”¢Ã¥Â°” Ã¦”¢Â¬). He had a succesful career in business and civil service before running for a seat in the Lower House in 1983. His Korean heritage was not openly used against him, but it was an election liability—in some instances, graffiti reading “Naturalized North Korean” was found painted over his election posters. Arai lost his first run for office but ran successfuly in 1986, after which he was reelected four times. Unfortunately, his story has an unhappy ending. He was caught up in a bribery scandal and committed suicide in 1998, the day after the photo above was taken. (Suicide is not an infrequent end to political careers in Japan.)

Arai was a member of the ruling LDP and a staunch conservative who saw his heritage as a liability. He never championed issues important to the non-Japanese community, hoping people would forget he was not totally Japanese. Yet six years after his death, no fewer than three “non-Japanese” sit in the Diet: former Finnish national Marutei Tsurunen of Kanagawa, former Taiwanese national Renho of Tokyo, and former Korean national Shinkun Park of Tokyo. In contrast to Arai, these three won not by hiding but by emphasizing their non-Japanese characteristics, winning elections to represent wholly Japanese constituencies.

What ever happened to the protruding nail gets hammered? This kind of “common wisdom” about Japan is sooo 20th century. Things have changed in the Land of the Rising Sun, and Japan in the 21st century opens more to gaijin with each passing day.

Success in national politics is the most surprising development, but it is by no means isolated. Adamu noted a few months ago that a Brooklyn native was elected to the the city council of Inuyama in Aichi Prefecture. The founder and CEO of Softbank (the Yahoo of Japan) is a naturalized Zainichi who kept his Korean last name. The current CEOs of Nissan and Sony are foreigners. And “non-Japanese” have made inroads into almost every sector of public life as entertainers, civil rights activists, lawyers, and even Sumo champions. The foreign population reached a record high of 2 million in 2005, and the declining birth rate means this number will continue to climb.

Having said that, it would be a vast overstatement to say that Japan is multicultural. But the biggest difference between Japan’s growing foreign population when compared to immigrant communities in the United States and Europe is that many foreigners who learn local customs and the Japanese language can thrive in almost any career, even turning their non-Japanese characteristics into advantages. Call it the ‘Japanese Dream.’ And dare I say it, a lot of countries could learn a thing or two from Japan’s experience.

Comments to this entry

sun bin
May 31, 2006
6:25 am
as for sony and nissan. i wouldn't call it multiracial
1) sony chose stringer to tap the US market, not unlike lenovo keeping the US CEO for thinkpad
2) nissan was acquired by renault and renault installed the CEO. this is no different from Morgan Stanley Japan has an American as its head.

the only real example is softbank. but it is Son who created his own business, and hence become the boss of his own company. it is not a corporate legend of someone rising to become the CEO.

---
having said that, the situation is not better in other country, say china or korea. perhaps more 'close' in korea.
(the most 'open' is perhaps HK, but only to brits/americans)

i guess US is unique in accomodating immigrants, because everybody (except the native americans) is an immigrant, or a few generations before is.
Darin
May 31, 2006
7:30 am
i guess US is unique in accomodating immigrants, because everybody (except the native americans) is an immigrant, or a few generations before is.


Yet it's so suprising how almost everyone has forgotten that when they go to the streets and protest for the removal of all immigrants...
Matt
May 31, 2006
7:49 am
the only real example is softbank. but it is Son who created his own business, and hence become the boss of his own company. it is not a corporate legend of someone rising to become the CEO.


I guess you are trying to say that he is not an example of a Korean (actually former Korean, now Japanese) that has overcome discrimination and become CEO. Actually, despite being a self made man, when he started he must have needed contacts (ä¿”šÃ£”šÂ?㔚Š in Japanese) to be able to get his business off the ground. He was able to do this despite using his Korean name and is a contrast to Shokei Arai. That is why Curzon was correct to use him as an example.

When commenting on aspects of Japanese society, it is useful to have some first hand knowledge of it. I know that Curzon has lived in Japan a long time. From the comments I have read from you here, I am guessing you have not.
Sonagi
May 31, 2006
12:23 pm
Sunbin's comments are valid. Yes, Son had to get contracts, but that is not the same as being inside a Japanese company, being a member of the group. First-hand experience is valuable, but it doesn't make one's beliefs and perceptions infallible. You and I both have lived in Korea and speak fluent Korean, yet we have disagreed about Korea-related topics.
Yago
May 31, 2006
12:37 pm
I will never be able to understand why Tsurunen gets elected. Never. It's ridiculous.
Younghusband
May 31, 2006
2:00 pm
bq. ...many foreigners who learn local customs and the Japanese language can thrive in almost any career, even turning their non-Japanese characteristics into advantages.

I think this needs to be qualified, and is related to what others have commented about before me (re: the group). I don't think foreigners can thrive in _any_ career; yet they sure can be successful as (certain kinds of) business owners or working for international firms. Most foreigners are successful at being "foreign", which is what most Japanese firms want (including Sony). I think all your examples reflect this, except for the politicians, which is admittedly an amazing step.

I think the situation is much more limited, as there is a lowest common denominator. Imagine being in the States and getting hired for a job solely because you are black/white/Asian/Hispanic. Not because you are respected for your knowledge or other abilities, but simply because your skin colour is "different." Once hired you are nick-named "Token". How would that make you feel? Thus, I think the only way to have a _satisfying_ career in Japan is to work for an international outfit that appreciates you for your abilities and not your hair colour, funny accent, and ability to use chopsticks.
Joe
May 31, 2006
3:23 pm
I would like to agree with the post, but I think it's way too optimistic. Younghusband's comment is spot-on. Outside of international business, foreigners are desired for the fact that they're foreign. There are certainly a lot of careers out there, but not much opportunity to thrive outside of a few fields. A lot of it is determined by your background, too: if you're Korean, you're not going to have the same opportunities open to an American or Australian.

Also, let's be real about some of these examples: Stringer was brought to Sony to fire people, because a Japanese boss who fired people would be villified to no end (whereas with foreigners it's almost expected--especially Stringer, whose career is based on firing people). Tsurunen still hasn't won a real election: he was appointed to the Diet by the DPJ to replace someone who resigned, and only after *losing* a bunch of elections in Kanagawa. And all three "foreign" Diet members are in the DPJ, which means that they have about as much legislative power in Japan as you and I do.
sun bin
May 31, 2006
5:12 pm
RE: masayoshi son's example.

see "his wiki entry":http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masayoshi_Son
'Despite discrimination and risk-averse bankers, Son secured a $1 million loan from DKB......"
so Son also had his (perhaps a lot of) moments of being discriminated.

any, the difference between doing business on your own and rising in the corporate(or public service) rank is that there are a lot less subjective judgment (making more money, vs begging for other's apprasals for promotion.
business contacts/etc, sure. but if you have a deal that both sides can money, you can overcome the discrimination.
note also he starte his first few $M in US before starting biz in japan.

this particular example show more about fair play than discrimination.

re: matt. i comment on a few particular cases that i have some knowledge of. i have no idea whether this is typical for japan or not. curzon may be right, or he maybe pushing a tough sell. all i am saying is curzon needs other more convincing examples to present his case.
sun bin
May 31, 2006
5:21 pm
darin: even with the protest on illegal immigrant, and discrimination agains new LEGEL immigrants. wouldn't anyone agree that it is still a lot easier for immigrants to make a life and truly rise in the corporate ladder?

it is easy to match 100 to 1 what curzon did for japan, with much bigger names
e.g. "CEO"
Mckinsey: from india
HP/Compaq: from mexico
VC: many from india, some from china(&taiwan)
politics: kissinger is not born in US (even though it is still predominantly white and "european")
Sonagi
May 31, 2006
5:47 pm
Curzon,

First, the post about the kinder, gentler face of Japanese colonialism and now this glowing piece about the Japanese dream. What is it about you Westerners in Japan? Is there a Stepford-wife type factory somewhere on the outskirts of Tokyo, where kidnapped foreign nationals are exchanged for Japanophilebots? :) Not too many 'Stepford wives' in Korea or China, that's for sure!
sun bin
May 31, 2006
6:48 pm
correction: it is not HP, i think i mistook for some other company.
Darin
May 31, 2006
9:55 pm
darin: even with the protest on illegal immigrant, and discrimination agains new LEGEL immigrants. wouldn't anyone agree that it is still a lot easier for immigrants to make a life and truly rise in the corporate ladder?


No, I wouldn't agree actually. It may be easier to make a life, but it's nearly IMPOSSIBLE to rise the corporate ladder. The only reason it's easier to make a life though is because janitorial service jobs pay much better in America then they do Japan. And I'm not making a joke here. My friend's Dad works two janitorial jobs and makes very good money. He speaks near perfect English, but could never get any other kind of job no matter how hard he worked at it. Why? Well he's an immigrant from Mexico, a legal one even.

First generation immigrants to America are treated like crap and will struggle their whole lives, but their children will be able to succeed just like any other American. And that's why people come to America. It's too late for them, but their unborn childrens' lives can still be improved. I think when you talk about foreigners succeeding in America, you're confusing actual first-generation immigrants, and all non-white people.

(I would be impressed of your resourcefullness if you are able to come up with an American company that is run by a first generation immigrant. Is that company even 1/4th the size of Sony Japan? Probably not.)

Having said that, I think Curzon may be a bit optomistic and I'll have to side more with Younghusband, but I do think you're way more then 'a bit' wrong.

As for the Japanese dream, I do think it exists. Maybe not for westerners, but it does for other easterners. Many of my Chinese classmates have gone on to get great jobs after graduation, specifically because they are NOT tolken. The tolken white guy can't speak Japanese, doesn't work hard, and fools around at night. The tolken (?) Chinese worker is non-existant; just another employee who speaks two (sometimes three if they are Korean-Chinese) languages. Perhaps they will never climb the corperate ladder and become CEO, but they clearly have a much better life here then they could back home, otherwise they would have gone back home to be with their family. Again as it is with America, the dream is very difficult to be realized by first-generation immigrants, but it's available to their children.

he is dating a japanese girl and he is obliged to do all this.


I know you're joking, but I've heard people make these types of comments before. Anyone who doesn't wish for the dustruction of the entire Japanese race is automatically bias because they live in Japan or have a relationship with a Japanese person. It's really a pathetic argument, especially when the people who make it are usually living in China or Korea and involved in a relationship with a native. (Not saying you are because I don't know anything about your personal life, but there are a many of people who do fit that description perfectly.)
Jing
May 31, 2006
10:28 pm
Darin says...

"First generation immigrants to America are treated like crap and will struggle their whole lives, but their children will be able to succeed just like any other American. And that's why people come to America. It's too late for them, but their unborn childrens' lives can still be improved. I think when you talk about foreigners succeeding in America, you're confusing actual first-generation immigrants, and all non-white people."

As a first generation emigre to the United States Darin, I can unequivocably say that you sir are full of crap.

Sure U.S. immigration has its quirks and American society is often schizophrenic in its attitude towards immigrants but I can say with some degree of confidance that America's reception and welcome of foreigners is probably the best in the world and certainly light years of established norms in Japan or anywhere else for that matter.

I second Sonagi's hypothesis that some expats are being kidnapped and being substituted with androids whose prime directive seems to culled from LDP talking points. *tinfoil beanie*
Darin
May 31, 2006
10:49 pm
As a first generation emigre to the United States Darin, I can unequivocably say that you sir are full of crap.


As a second generation immigrant I can say that I am not full of crap.
Matt
June 1, 2006
12:12 am
Sun Bin and Sonagi,

I think that Curzon is speaking in a very limited context. He is very aware of the challenges faced by foreigners, as am I. He mentions 'civil rights' activist David Aldwinckle, a former American naturalised Japanese who campaigns on a position of racial grievance and identity politics. 20 years ago he would have been beaten down in an instant. In 21st century Japan, he even finds supporters among native Japanese.

Not too many "ËœStepford wives' in Korea or China, that's for sure!


I dont know about China, but the Korean expat version of "ËœStepford wives' is a big hate hard on for Japan. Its funny to see white guys foam at the mouth claiming "the Japs killed millions of Koreans!" just because a Korean friend or colleague told them so.
sun bin
June 1, 2006
12:29 am
darin,

US is not perfect, but in comparison it is miles above japan, EU, china, and almost every else for foreigners.

just let's talk fact.
"Rajat Gupta - CEO of McKinsey":http://www.sree.net/stories/bt-gupta.html
CEO of McKinsey is more pretigeous (and perhaps makes more money) than that of Fortune 50, yes, 50, not 500
Curzon
June 1, 2006
1:45 am
A main point of this post that I should have stated more directly was that "foreigners" can succeed in ways that "Japanese" cannot. Son is the biggest example of that. The average Japanese person in his position would have gone straight into a comfortable career position in a bank or major trading company. Since that was how Japan worked for generations, it created an unnatural lack of entrepreneurship that Son was able to fill with Bill Gates-esque success. And that's not just in industry -- Bianchi, Debito, Renho, Akebono and Konishiki and many others are all in the category of succeeding because they were foreigners, and probably would not have succeeded had they been Japanese.

YH: more than international v.s. domestic firms, the environment of the organization itself is crucial. I've worked at stifled and pathetic international outfits and dynamic Japanese firms. A lot of this also has to do with regional corporate culture. I also believe that your experience was tainted by the city where you worked. Tokyo, Yokohama, and Nagoya are far more business-driven than Kansai. At some Japanese firms you will be the token monkey to impress clients with your chopstick skills. At other companies, there are some foreigners who can rule the roost because they are the only ones with the necessary skills, i.e. because they are foreign. (Joe: can you say LOF!)

Sonagi: I've never seen Stepford Wives, but I think I get the point. Yours, Sun Bin and Jing's points that I've somehow been "kidnapped," "duped" or "pussywhipped" into being some mouthpiece for the Japanese viewpoint (despite the alleged fact that I am :gasp: white!) is as pathetic as it is illogical. (From my years of talking politics with Chinese people, it also strikes me as a very Chinese way of debate.) I've stated in many posts my thoughts and the reasoning behind my beliefs on Yasukuni, Japan's colonial history, the textbooks, and much more. You're welcome to disagree with my reasoning. But when someone tries to rebut with insults, that's a big red flag that they don't have a real counterargument.
adamu
June 1, 2006
2:14 am
The thing about the story of "foreigners in Japan" is that it's such a varied group of people that it's hard to pin down. Let's try and clarify what we're talking about.

People like Son and other successful 'zainichi' Koreans and Chinese are for all intents and purposes _Japanese_ - when Son talks turkey with the media or other businessmen, he speaks their language and is a part of the culture 100%. The issue of "discrimination" in this case is far more cut and dry for him since there is little to no language or cultural barrier - only an ethnic/legal barrier. This is definitely a huge leap forward for Japanese society from back in the 50s Rikidozan's Korean ethnicity was a closely-guarded secret. The rights of Son have essentially been hard-won by the people who have come before him.

Then consider someone like Stringer (who was a first-generation immigrant to the US from the UK until his recent promotion), who speaks very little Japanese. He can still be very effective as a "firer" and as someone with leadership skills a la Carlos Ghosn.

When Renault installed Ghosn to save Nissan, Japanese culture would simply have to change to accommodate _him_ or he'd probably just leave - and it did change when he was successful in turning the company around. Both men probably just don't have time to give a crap about identity politics or fitting into Japanese culture.

The most easily-recognizable model for people like Stringer, Ghosn, and Japanese baseball coach Bobby Valentine is that of The Last Samurai - they are already proven leaders in their field - global citizens - and, god dammit, the working-level people can take care of minute details like the local language. People like this will most likely never constitute much of a permanent population in Japan. But if domestic Japanese leadership remains stagnant under the convoy system of regulatory guidance and the moral hazard created by the government's guarantee that no megacorporation will go under, their usefulness will probably continue for some time.

Then, there are people like Debito, Anthony Bianchi, and journalist Tony McNichol, white professionals who spent the bulk of their adult lives in Japan and have seen differing levels of success. Unless they want to live in a complete gaijin bubble, they are more or less required to learn up to a certain level of Japanese, but there are inevitably language barriers that make their adjustment to Japanese society (and careers) difficult. And unless they have some skill like computer programming or engineering, or own their own business, they are best suited to fields that take advantage of their English skills or foreignness - teaching, translating, journalism. This is the group that's likely to get rattled by "chopstick praise" (which seems to beg the question - so what can you do that _matters_?) unless they are as successful at playing the game as the above three. And often this is the group that has a choice to make about whether to settle for being the token gaijin, give up and leave, or study hard and get into a field. As a younger member of this demographic (sort of), I see this as an advantage - neither zainichi nor the expense-package execs have the cultural mobility (or built-in added value if you speak Japanese) of the longterm gaijin.

There are of course dozens of other demographics, including the foreign hostess bar women, nikkei Brazilians, and Indian programmers, but that's as far as we'll go for now.
Curzon
June 1, 2006
3:41 am
People like Son and other successful "Ëœzainichi' Koreans and Chinese are for all intents and purposes Japanese "“ when Son talks turkey with the media or other businessmen, he speaks their language and is a part of the culture 100%.


That is unfortunately a uniquely North American view of nationality and citizenship. America and Canada are, to my knowledge, the only countries in the world that grant citizenship automatically upon birth within the nation's borders. Other "immigrant countries" have since restricted their laws (Australia in 1986, New Zealand in 2006) now require that one parent be a citizen to recieve citizenship at birth.

The Zainichi in Korea are by no means a unique phenomenon. Be they "Turks" in Germany, "Tatars" in Russia, "Algerians" in France, "Jews" in Iran, or "Koreans" in Japan (etc. etc.), many people are born, raised, and life their whole life in a country and are yet denied full recognition as a citizen or national because of their heritage, either legally or in fact.
Darin
June 1, 2006
4:04 am
...many people are born, raised, and life their whole life in a country and are yet denied full recognition as a citizen or national because of their heritage, either legally or in fact.


I don't know about Turks, Tatars, Algerians or Jews, but as for Koreans in Japan, no one is being "denied full recognition as a citizen or national because of their heritage, either legally or in fact." One can naturalize if they choose; not the government or anyone else is stopping anyone from doing so. No one is forcing anyone to naturalize either.
Joe
June 1, 2006
4:20 am
A main point of this post that I should have stated more directly was that "foreigners"Â? can succeed in ways that "Japanese"Â? cannot. Son is the biggest example of that.


I call bullshit, because Horie was doing the same damn thing before he was arrested. He didn't have to be foreign to be an edgy businessman.

At other companies, there are some foreigners who can rule the roost because they are the only ones with the necessary skills, i.e. because they are foreign.


I call bullshit again. What skills do you get out of being foreign, besides speaking another language fluently and being a convenient mascot? If your foreign-ness is the basis for your job, you're highly unlikely to integrate into Japanese society. You're essentially the guy making fortune cookies in Chinatown, except you're getting paid a lot more.
Younghusband
June 1, 2006
4:22 am
Curzon, point taken about location but I am not basing my argument solely on _my_ experience. I have lots of friends working in Tokyo, Nagoya and Yokohama (though none are lawyers!). But, I do agree whole-heartedly "that "foreigners"Â? can succeed in ways that "Japanese"Â? cannot." Being a _gaijin_ does have benefits.

Also, _wot wot_ to Adamu's comment.
sun bin
June 1, 2006
6:02 am
@curzon

just to clarify,

i never said you are stepford wife (check up IMDB, a pretty interesting movie). and please do not confuse a joke with insult. i know where your sympathy lies and i believe it is only natural if you have spent so much time and have so many friend in a country to become sympathetic with the people and even some extreme faction in that country... (and also natural even if you are (allegedly) biased -- who isn't biased to a certain extent?).
moorethanthis
June 1, 2006
6:06 am
Agree with Adamu - talking about "the foreign population" of Japan is a misomner. You have zainichi, who are to all intents and purposes Japanese. Son is more an indicator of Horie-style entreprenuerialism than something only foreigners can do. Then you have first-world immigrants; these are usually the people who end up in high-profile roles (politicians, etc). Then you have a lower class of foreign workers such as Brazilians, Iranians and others who are used for cheap labour.

As for gaijin being able to do stuff that Japanese can't - it all depends on the role. If you're in a moribund, Japan Inc. corporation, maybe they look to the foreigner to break the mould and inject some dynamism because cultural constraints forbid the Japanese workers form doing so. In the end, it goes without saying that valuable skills, your likelihood of being a "chopstick praise model" is a lot higher.
Sonagi
June 1, 2006
1:00 pm
Curzon,

I dislike emoticons but stuck one at the end of my comment to make it clear that I was being facetious. As Matt noted, Western expats in Korea can be as vitriolically anti-Japanese as any Korean, and they obviously picked up that attitude from the Koreans. Judging by comments on Asia-related posts here and at the Marmot's, expat views on Japan-Korea-China relations tend to mirror those of the host country although there are a large minority of expats in Korea and China who write negatively about their host country and its people in the blogsphere. I haven't noticed this among Japan expats, and that's actually what I was aiming at with the "Stepford wife" crack. Expat attitudes towards the host country in Japan, Korea, and China are a whole other topic, I suppose. It's no coincidence that as a former resident of Korea, I view Japanese colonialism negatively. The Japanese colonialism thread was a thoughtful debate with logical points made on both sides. I disagreed with your position, but you did indeed, as always, justify your views.

Curzon, I was not insulting you. Your blog is respected and draws participants from a variety of nations and educational and career experiences because your entries display breadth and depth. That is why I made the Stepford wife crack - precisely because you're not anyone's mouthpiece.
Joe
June 1, 2006
1:30 pm
I should add to my previous comments that I agree with Curzon in part; it is becoming easier for gaijin to live in Japan, particularly in the big cities.

That doesn't mean that Japan is somehow opening up; it means that there are more gaijin so you aren't treated like a total freak show any more.

And if you look at what these gaijin are doing, they're either working minimum-wage jobs with no discernible future, or making ridiculous amounts of money and living in expat enclaves in south-central Tokyo.

Zainichi, on the other hand, are doing OK, but that's because they're not easily distinguishable from native Japanese, so they can find ways to do everything that Japanese people do.
Sonagi
June 1, 2006
3:09 pm
"An Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development study in 1999 showed that while immigrants in the United States are almost equal to native-born workers as taxpayers and contributors to American prosperity, in Denmark there is a glaring gap of 41 percent between the contributions of the native-born and of the immigrants. In the United States, a laid-off worker gets an average of 32 percent compensation for his former wages in welfare services; in Denmark the figure is 81 percent. A culture of welfare dependency is rife among immigrants, and it is taken for granted."

from: Der Spiegel International, "Why I published the Muhammad Cartoons" (http://service.spiegel.de/cache/international/spiegel/0,1518,418930,00.html )

Curzon's OP featured a few real-life success stories in politics and business. I'm wondering if there are any statistics similar to those above comparing economic participation by non-ethnic Japanese with the Japanese. Googling good stats isn't easy in English, nevermind another language, but I thought it was worth asking. There's certainly no culture of welfare dependency in Japan, so I'd expect non-Japanese economic participation in Japan to be more like that of the US than of Europe.
lirelou
June 2, 2006
12:27 am
Hey Darin, another first generation immigrant who made it big: An Wang. Granted, his son was not able to keep the company going, but it did have its day in the sun. And I've seen too many first generation immigrant communities in the U.S. to buy your over-generalization. I'm sure it's true in some cases, but it is hardly the rule.
Robert
June 2, 2006
5:13 am
Curzon---You'd have to admit that the "Stepford Wives" comments were pretty damn funny. Anyway, it is a rather interesting difference I've noticed---expats in Japan (at least the ones who blog) seem to back the party line of their country of residence than those in Korea. Granted, when the party line is being generated by the Uri Party, it's hard to line up behind it, but still, the difference in attitudes can be quite dramatic.
Barbarians in 21st century Japan at The Marmot’s Hole
June 2, 2006
5:40 am
[...] If you haven’t read it yet, head over to Coming Anarchy and read both Curzon’s post on immigrant success in Japan and the netizen discussion that follows it. [...]
Muninn » More on the Nation-State
June 2, 2006
10:35 am
[...] But what does this have to do with an anti-national project? Why not just support more liberal naturalization laws and open immigration? How is this different than the issues being faced across the world when immigrants flow in, naturalize, and gain political rights? Curzon at Coming Anarchy has a nice discussion of how in the Japan of today, naturalized foreigners have made inroads into the highest legislative body of Japan, even while emphasizing their unique identity. We see similar trends throughout Europe, not to mention the obvious case of the “immigrant nations” of the world. Doesn’t this whole discussion merge into the heated debate over immigration in the United States? Or, in Europe, between self-proclaimed protectors of the Enlightenment and the supporters of the growing Muslim immigrant populations of the continent? [...]
Sonagi
June 2, 2006
12:17 pm
"(From my years of talking politics with Chinese people, it also strikes me as a very Chinese way of debate.)"

Could you clarify what you meant by that?
Curzon
June 2, 2006
12:47 pm
A reluctance to engage arguments on a rational level, instead questioning motives, bringing up background ("Well, you're _American_"), and insulting the other side, directly or indirectly. And Rob, I really haven't seen Stepford Wives -- although with so many rave reviews, I'll add it to my download list.
Sonagi
June 2, 2006
2:18 pm
Hmmm, I'll sit back and see how Sunbin and Jing respond to this.
Japundit » 2006 » June » 03
June 2, 2006
3:29 pm
[...] [...]
Jing
June 2, 2006
4:26 pm
:( I had an awesome and pithy response written up yesterday... but I lost it when I tried to submit. Damn it, I'm too lazy to write it up again, it was long. Suffice it to say I was also being semi-facetious as well about the replicants, but there is an observable difference in western attitudes towards the orient and it is consistant. It certainly is not illogical in questioning motivations. I had a fairly good explanation on why, but ARGHGHG! Foul internet explorer at work :(

Anyways, if we are going to discuss common methods of arguement, I could go on about the Japanese proclivity towards laying on the evasionary passive aggression so thick that you can ladel it up with a fork.
Curzon
June 2, 2006
4:59 pm
Jing: a valid point. My all time favorite example of that is discussions about the early 20th century: "We didn't colonize Korea, we _annexed_ it."

I'd welcome your thoughts on the lost comment noted above now or at a later date.
adamu
June 2, 2006
5:06 pm
Remedy - type your comments in gmail and then paste them in
sun bin
June 2, 2006
6:09 pm
sonagi, respond to what? :) i was really just making a rather simple and meaningless comment (or facetious is a better word). it was not supposed to be a 'rational' comment.
however, i do have some theory to your original question. but i am not going to ramble about that as it may appear to be quite off-topic.

re: reluctance to engage arguments on a rational level? i thought the arguments already ended when sonagi switched into the movie channel. we already heard the views from all the sides even though we may still diaagree. that is why we could switch channel. we would have been guilty to this charge if we layed into the stepford wives comment from the start, without having already engaged in rational arguments.
this would be my 'rational' answer if that is the question i am supposed to respond to.

---
@curzon,
while 'inappropriateness or insult' has never entered my mind, i do not think i could define what constitutes insult to other people. it is for that person to define, not me. now curzon feels offended, i think it is my responsibility to be sensitive and i would sincerely apologize if that caused any bad feeling. it sure was not the intention.
sun bin
June 2, 2006
6:30 pm
re:curzon/sonagi again. i realize that this may be what you want me to comment on.
"it also strikes me as a very Chinese way of debate"

-- to me the 'stepford wives' comment is not part of the debate. it is post-debate.
-- now this is sort of 'insulting'. this is not unique for 'chinese way', right? you see "A reluctance to.....and insulting ...." way of 'debate' from japanese, american, british, chinese people, everywhere. not just everywhere, perhaps about the similar frequency, and before these cultures mingled. even though i personally believe chinese (and asian in general) traditional education is less rational than western edcuation.
FYI, there is a 'chinese way' of irrationality i dispise. it tends to focus on decoration of word, quoting obscure examples and ancient (usually confucian saints) quotes as supporting evidence (rather than applying rigorous logic or statistics) to argue. it started in chinese examination system over 1000 years, esp Zhu Xi in Song Dynasty. Again, this is not unique in China but it is more commonly found in (still today) in many chinese essayists.
Mulboyne
June 3, 2006
1:13 am
As well as the McKinsey and Wang Computer examples of successful first generation immigrants, the best instance is likely Roberto Goizueta who ran Coca Cola from 1980 until his death in 1997. He started working for the company in Havana but fled Cuba when Castro seized power.

Perhaps a more interesting Japanese example than Softbank is Trend Micro. Founded by Taiwanese nationals Steve Chang, his wife and her sister - current CEO Eva Chen - the company is headquartered in Tokyo and was first listed on the Tokyo Stock Exchange. The current CFO is Indian national Mahendra Negi. It is much smaller than Softbank but 2005 revenues of 73 billion yen probably keeps them all well supplied with bentos. Certainly, foreigners have founded other companies since the Meiji Restoration - like Kirin Brewery, SEGA, Morozoff and NEC - which have gone on to be listed but they had long gone by the time the shares were publicly traded.

Another relatively unseen area of foreign influence is in finance. You might recall last year when Tatsuro Kiyohara, an employee of hedge fund Tower Investment Management, was named as the highest income taxpayer in the land. There are a considerable number of foreign residents in Japan who run their own larger funds who earned more than Kiyohara but who arranged their tax affairs differently. Murakami, he of the recently beleaguered Fund, has just cottoned on to the fact that you can be located in Japan but regulated offshore. This predominance of foreign finance entrepeneurs has really only become significant over the last 10-12 years.

I always think it is better not to argue the toss over issues like how influential the foreign-born DPJ politicians are or what the motives were at Sony for appointing Stringer. Rather it is better to ask whether their appearance was predictable 10-15 years ago. I suspect you would have got long odds on both which tends to suggest that something has changed and perhaps looking into what that might be is more interesting.

If the Japanese economy does continue to recover, I wonder how many of these changes will stick. Japanese companies only started to solicit foreign ideas when they hit the skids. The doors could remain open if their fortunes improve but it could go the other way.
Joe
June 3, 2006
7:44 am
Japanese companies only started to solicit foreign ideas when they hit the skids.
Perhaps this is just the next era of o-yatoi gaikokujin, to be followed by another era of nationalist imperialism and eventual destruction, to be followed by a rebirth as something greater than before? Are all of those sci-fi anime storylines about to come true?
Gaeri
June 3, 2006
12:54 pm
"Its funny to see white guys foam at the mouth claiming "the Japs killed millions of Koreans!"Â? just because a Korean friend or colleague told them so."

Can't say i seen a lot of white guys foaming at the mouth just because a Korean said so, If they're inclined to hate someone over before they were born history then I think Pearl Harbor does the trick.
adamu
June 4, 2006
1:50 pm
By the way Ren Ho and other Diet members have their own podcast now, hosted by Yahoo! Minna no Seiji. If you understand Japanese and follow politics at all it might be interesting (though Ren Ho's was kind of boring)

link:http://www.star-alliance.com/star_alliance/star/content/faq.html
Gaijin Biker
June 5, 2006
12:31 am
"First generation immigrants to America are treated like crap and will struggle their whole lives, but their children will be able to succeed just like any other American. And that's why people come to America. It's too late for them, but their unborn childrens' lives can still be improved."

I see. We can only hope that someday, Sergey Brin's children may have a shot at the good life.
Dr. Alfred Russel Wallace
June 5, 2006
2:29 am
Someone wiser than me once said: "Every American should marry an immigrant. People who come here work their asses off, but their descendents become more and more lazy with each passing generation."
adamu
June 5, 2006
3:02 am
Oh wrong link. But if you really want to listen you'll find it
Hex
June 5, 2006
5:56 am
*Yet it's so suprising how almost everyone has forgotten that when they go to the streets and protest for the removal of all immigrants"¦*

Not the removal of *all* immigrants... just the one's that didn't wait in line like everyone else is doing.
sun bin
June 12, 2006
11:57 pm
this is just "another data point":http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/4671687.stm

it does not help "a conclusion either way":http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xCeK0Trz9E0
instead, it shows things are more complicated than what some people would like to believe.
sun bin
June 14, 2006
2:13 pm
OTOH, Japanese are fun people who love English :)
"How dare you day such a thing to me! Don't make fun of me":http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WdJKMFx0joA&search=Zuiikin