So what makes my city’s Gap the Gap? The most obvious part is that it is populated almost solely by blacks (not that their skin color is directly related to the problem). The area is run down and has very few businesses, just an occasional gas station or liquor store. Much of the violent crime either happens there or is perpetrated by those who live there. Other indicators include a much lower level of education not to mention value on education as well as higher unemployment. In addition to the stark economic and educational gaps, as readers like Kirk have mentioned, there is a very noticable linguistic difference as well.Culturally of course, there are also many differences. Yet, those are the obvious indicators which hold true all over the US and world. Why did the Gap become so disconnected? The first reason is historical and the second cultural.
A Head Start
The first part of the problem is that historically, the black community who make up most of the Gap got a very late start in the game. First free in 1865 by the 13th Ammendment but only equal a hundred years later, by the time black Americans had the same legal opportunities (and somewhat the same socially), power and wealth were already concentrated in the hands of whites. Needless to say, it’s not exactly rocket science that a group which was oppressed for so long can’t go from second class citizens to middle class.
On an important note, this idea is hardly new nor is this situation unique to the United States. Similar situations produced wealthy elites in other countries. Why are 6 of Russia’s 7 Oligarch’s Jewish? Amy Chua argues that since they were excluded from mainstream society (including university), they ended up dealing in the black market. Hence, once Russia transitioned to capitalism, they were part of the very few who understood how markets worked, how to run businesses and what opportunities there were for them. The same goes for minorities in foreign countries which consist of the descendants of colonists (S. Africa, Kenya, all of Latin America). A key component here is that these groups all had a huge head start over others with the only difference being they are minorities in these examples and majorities in my example. Though much more could be said about this on a global scale, I’ll leave it for another post.
A Broken Culture
The next problem is cultural. As I’ve mentioned in numerous posts, large portions of America’s black community, like other groups across the world, simply have a failing culture. What I mean by that is that it contains certain values which inhibit real social development. According to Ralph Peters such traits include:
- Restrictions on the free flow of information.
- The subjugation of women.
- Inability to accept responsibility for individual or collective failure.
- The extended family or clan as the basic unit of social organization.
- Domination by a restrictive religion.
- A low value of education.
- Low prestige assigned to work.
As Lady Chirol with her Masters in Sociology explained to me, blacks aren’t “lazy” but rather that for centuries, work was never connected to personal gain. Only over the past few decades has it even been possible in the US that black Americans could work for personal gain, not for that of someone else. A trip to your local McDonalds will prove this point. The Mexican there who barely speaks English will be eager and ready to serve, willing to work long and hard. The black worker will often have a poor appearance (shirt untucked, unwashed etc), slouch and show little interest or pride in their work.
In addition, the common attitude that “I’m a victim” and that “I deserve things” is a significant part of the problem. Progress will only be possible when people stop blaming society and take responsibility for their own lives. Not only is work given low prestige, education often is as well as those who break the cycle of poverty and violence are often seen as traitors to their community, Uncle Tom’s as they are sometimes called (despite the irony of that term). Women are also often not treated as equals.
While this historical-cultural explanation does not excuse current behavior, it does underline the point that there is a significant cultural problem here which more connectivity cannot just fix. In fact, it often makes matters worse (similar to information). As Peters has noted:
Globalization demands conformity to the practices of the global leaders, especially those of the United States. If you do not confrm ““ or innovate ““ you lose. If you try to quit the game, you lose even more profoundly.
On a domestic level, PNM theory remains unproven. With no physical barrier to the Core nor any legal barriers (Jim Crow Laws etc.) to work or study, surprisingly little progress is being made. Despite having infinitely more opportunity than those who live in the real Gap, my city’s Gap and its residents are doing little to reverse their fortunes.
America’s Gap is well documented historically, familiar to us and confronts us on a daily basis. We’re not dealing with complex tribal ties in Somalia or Yemen. There’s no real ethnic and religious tension like in Iraq. As millions immigrate to the United States, mainly from Latin America, and carve out a life for themselves, the point is proven over and over. The opportunities for success are already there. The connectivity is all around. There are very very few real barriers and none physically or legally. The problem is culture and there’s no quick fix for that.
I planned to finish off the series with this post but seeing as how long this one has already gotten, I’ll save my solutions for a third post which focuses first on how to connect our Gap, secondly the international implications of that and thirdly on the overall viability of PNM Theory.
- BROWSE / IN TIMELINE
- « New RDK - “Old States, New Threats”
- » Hostile Maneuvers, Reloaded
COMMENTS / 43 COMMENTS
ComingAnarchy.com » Blog Archive » added these pithy words on Apr 25 06 at 7:33 pm[...] Case Study in Domestic PNM Theory II 42 Chirol, Dan tdaxp, Elizabeth [...] [...]
Dan tdaxp added these pithy words on 23 Apr 06 at 10:01 pm
As Lady Chirol with her Masters in Sociology explained to me, blacks aren’t “lazy”Â? but rather that for centuries, work was never connected to personal gain. Only over the past few decades has it even been possible in the US that black Americans could work for personal gain, not for that of someone else. A trip to your local McDonalds will prove this point. The Mexican there who barely speaks English will be eager and ready to serve, willing to work long and hard. The black worker will often have a poor appearance (shirt untucked, unwashed etc), slouch and show little interest or pride in their work.I would question this. Traditionally, the breakdown of the black family did not occur until the Great Soviety experiment, and one reason is that until then a family’s gain was directly related to the work of males.
Likewise, is the economics of Mexican campesinos that different from Southern sharecroppers?
sailordude added these pithy words on 23 Apr 06 at 10:19 pmThere is no doubt that modern black culture is dysfunctional. Denish DeSousa chronicled the problems with black culture in the early 90’s when he wrote “The End of Racism”, and no serious observers of culture dispute his conclusions.
As much as I admire Dr. Barnett, I think he misses the obvious truism of capitalism. Free markets produce “winners” and “losers”. The Core consists of those cultural “winners” and the Gap is where the “losers” can be found.
The reality is that as long as globalism is ordered on capitalism there will be losers. Just as “connectivity” does not solve the domestic “gap” problem it will not solve the global “gap” problem.
Like the humans who compose them. dysfunctional cultures will only change after they “hit bottom”. What form “hitting bottom” will take, noboby knows, but I suspect it will not be pretty.
PHS added these pithy words on 23 Apr 06 at 11:50 pmAgreed with your point about black culture not putting a premium on education. As a graduate of the Atlanta Public School Systems I have seen it firsthand. Time and time again I noticed black students who had been achieving essentially quit participating in school because they were accused of “acting white.”
I am not sure of the reasons for this. Perhaps it has something to do with: a lack of an effective education/education system for much of the start of the US and through to the 20th century; a lack of incentive for hard work during the first three centuries here; few role models in the community to reinforce the benefits of education; a general spite towards things perceived as “white”.
Whatever the reasons for this percieved lack of value in education, the consequences are enormous, for the culture and the country as a whole…
AMac added these pithy words on 24 Apr 06 at 4:41 amThe metro area where Iive also has a central urban Gap jurisdiction. Oh, I won’t be coy, it’s Baltimore, Maryland, USA. It’s possible to read the news and see one way that national and regional political pressures are currently acting to widen the Core-Gap difference in the future.
Baltimore City schools are mostly black and mostly terrible—by any measure. Under No Child Left Behind, the State was to take over the worst of the worst of them. This has been forcefully resisted on both efficacy and racial turf grounds, and city politicos mustered enough legislative allies to derail the plan, for now.
The fury signifies nothing, in that advocates for all sides are competing to have their plan declared most likely to conform to the terms of NCLB. This means that the educational achievement of the students of these failing city schools is to match the statewide average within X years. The Truth That Dare Not Speak Its Name, of course, is that there is a 0% chance that any of the proposals could actually meet these terms 2, 5, or 8 years from now. Compassionate Republican Politics, and Ethnic/Racial Politics, Liberal Democrat Politics, and Teachers Union Politics all vehemently agree on the obviously false proposition that the Baltimore City student population—disadvantaged in every way mentioned in the post and preceding comments—can be combined with an underqualified teaching staff and an inefficient and somewhat corrupt school administration to produce Educational Excellence. Or at least excellence at the level of the statewide average on standardized test scores.
It would be (intellectually) easy to set an achievable goal for the school system. Say, that within five years, City students should achieve test scores that are comparable to the (substantially higher) test scores that similar students achieve in neighboring jurisdictions. Such a goal-setting process would be painful and threatening to most of the interest groups already mentioned. Unlike the current NCLB pie-in-the-sky fantasy, a failure to perform at the level that other educators and systems are already operating at would be very hard to dismiss with the usual post-hoc rationalizations.
So just about all of the major players win with the current kabuki performance, as, in one major area, the gulf between competent and Gap yawns wider. The only real losers in this are the current and future students. And the wider society, of course.
While I’ve dwelled on one East Coast locale, I suspect that these sorts of local issues aggravate the Core/Gap divide in many US metropolitan areas. Obviously this is just a single piece, but it’s probably a significant one.
germanicus added these pithy words on 24 Apr 06 at 6:33 amI think that Black America has been ill-served by it leadership. The Jessie Jacksons, Al Sharptons and others have peddled the long running campaign of victimhood and have vilified blacks who have a different idea of self-help and pull yourself up by the boot straps. Until that latter thought gains currency in the black community the gap between our “Core” and “Gap” will widen.
Elizabeth added these pithy words on 24 Apr 06 at 6:51 amI have many objections to the generalizations made here- not because they are generalizations, but because they demonstrate a very poor understanding of poverty (no pun intended). But I’ll focus on these “failing” traits.
You mention a number of traits of failing cultures that are worse among poor communities the world ‘round. I would say that several of these may more likely be coping mechanisms, rather than societal traits that led to the situation. After all, were blacks sold into slavery because their women weren’t equal? Were Russians poor because they have restrictions on the free flow of information, or was information restricted because their government was insecure because people were poor?
Let’s look at these supposed cultural traits that are supposed to cause poverty.
* Restrictions on the free flow of information.
This is common where power is threatened. Among minority leaderships, consensus is essential to defend against the majority. Dissent can’t be tolerated in the same way as among majority, secure groups. This is a well-known phenomenon, but as soon as we see it among people that we don’t respect, we say it’s their fault for restricting information.
* The subjugation of women.
As soon as men lose power, they seek to assert it over someone else. Women, being physically weaker on average, are usually at the bottom. Note that the subjugation of minority groups is also common among fragile regimes.
* Inability to accept responsibility for individual or collective failure.
I would say it’s more a refusal. When people are constantly blamed for things they do not do (“they’re all crackheads”, “they all subjugate women”, “they don’t work”, etc.) they start to get defensive.
* The extended family or clan as the basic unit of social organization.
I guess their alternative would be to rely on themselves and the justice they see so often in society? In unjust societies (and yes, the US is an unjust society, it’s not North Korea, but it’s still not just) and among persecuted groups, people have to rely on someone else to help them. In most poor areas, this is the extended family. The richer people become, the less they need this network, and the more they begin to feel that they can cope on their own.
* Domination by a restrictive religion.
Listen, if you haven’t got pie here, you might as well have it in the sky. Mr. President said if you work hard at school, you’ll get a job. Seems he was wrong. Mr. Pastor hasn’t been proved wrong yet. Poor people need something to cling to.
* A low value of education.
This is one that, quite frankly, I have not seen much among poor communities. Among individual failures, yes, but not among poor groups. What people tend not to value is what can be considered as institutionalization into another group. Few blacks, for example, would frown on someone attending a black school with black teachers and a traditionally black college. They may not aspire to “the white man’s world” (I know it’s hard for whites to imagine that blacks might not aspire to be like them, but humor me), going to Harvard, and doing well on the S.A.T.s which they view as prejudiced against them, but they do value education.
Likewise, even in Afghanistan, where the value put on women’s education was low, when courses in reading the Koran are offered, men often allow women of all ages to attend.
Just because they don’t want to be educated by the majority- Whitey, the foreign occupiers, whoever- that doesn’t mean they don’t value education.
* Low prestige assigned to work.
Do you mean, “low prestige to working for whitey at McDonald’s”? Or, perhaps, “low prestige attached to making minimum wage without benefits at WalMart”?
While gangsters at the top don’t do a lot of work, it takes a lot for work and skill to successfully deal drugs in the ghetto (plus the disadvantages of failing- i.e., death- are really crap).
People value work, industry, and intelligence. They do not always value taking a job at the bottom of an unjust system based on the false (usually) belief that someday, you can work your way out of the ghetto. That’s just stupid. It’s fine for a white kid to work at a suburban McDonald’s serving middle-class brats, but for a black adult to work in a restaurant at which people can be shot and which known to be run by whites, for the profit mainly of whites- well, who can blame the guy if he slacks off? Tell me honestly, is a black high-school graduate really going to make it up from McDonald’s? The Mexicans just got here- give them awhile, they’ll learn.
You brought up the Russians- let’s take them as an example. I can say that, aside from the alcoholics (admittedly this is a big group, but it’s based on physiology as much as culture), Russians are very hard workers, and not opposed to work at all. They understand business very well. Why did the Jews get the oilfields?
Russians were opposed to STEALING FROM THEIR OWN COUNTRY. They worked very hard- honestly, not charging what they called “extortionist” rates for watermelons, apples, and flour. During those crisis years, many Russians were working 18-hour days as nurses, doctors, teachers, train conductors, and performing other essential services.
The oligarchs were working hard buying the country’s natural resources at prices which even children could have recognized as ridiculously unfair, based on bribes, personal connections, lies, and other machinations that most Russians (and indeed, one would hope, most people) find morally repugnant. That most of the oligarchs are Jews is unfortunate for the Jews, I would say.
Many Russians continue to teach for $10.00 per month, for the sake of their country, and only earn their extras as tutors. They could make more selling watermelons, but this is not considered prestigious. Russian doctors are starving, but they are not contributing to the GDP since they refuse to sell fake medicine at exorbitant rates. It is absolutely absurd to say that Russians are somehow less aware of what is going on in their country, and / or less willing to work. Most Russians knew what was going on from the beginning, but refused to make the moral compromises that the oligarchs did.
For blacks, it is often more a refusal to work for whites than a refusal to work. This may be counter-productive, but it’s a symptom of pride and defiance, not laziness or unwillingness to work.
What the majority may perceive as an opposition to work is sometimes a refusal to participate in a system which is, as often as not, unfair and responsible for the oppression of those who don’t want to work in it.
Overall, traits which a majority might see as silly or harmful are the only response that oppressed, poor, or minority groups have to protect their individual members from the oppressors, the rich, or the majority. These traits can lead to a vicious circle, but nobody has yet proven to the poor that by taking the first steps that they, as a group, can get out of it.
snow added these pithy words on 24 Apr 06 at 8:05 am“but nobody has yet proven to the poor that by taking the first steps that they, as a group, can get out of it.”
Maybe that’s part of the problem, too much identification with a group. A focus on the individual might help people of any race to decide to do what’s best for themselves instead of what the group thinks of them.
It can even be difficult for whites (who are supposedly so advantaged) to take steps outside of certain ‘comfort zones.’ There always exists the fear of failure, but only an individual can do this (in Western countries, anyway-in many countries, individualism may not be tolerated, I know).
Elizabeth added these pithy words on 24 Apr 06 at 8:44 amThe fact is, the group exists. There is a group, all humans with skin darker than a certain shade of beige and hair curlier than a certain level of kink, belong to, whether they like it or not. The borders of this group are just a little bit fuzzy but we all know a black person when we see him / her, even if the said person is “said identified” with another group.
Many black people would love not to be associated with blacks as a group (though I doubt this is a majority of blacks). But they are black; they are targeted for being pulled over, searched, put in special education, etc. as such. There is no use pretending that they are not part of that group.
You write that “it can even be difficult for whites…” Oh, really? :-D I can’t help but laugh. On the contrary, many whites (though certainly many whites are also disadvantaged due to dress, religion, accent, etc.) have never had to step out of their comfort zones. I’d love to see a white person try to go through what black people go through every day.
You say that “only an individual can [step out of his comfort zone].” I think that many people “on the top” overestimate their individual contribution to their own success. How many middle-class people were born to parents who were born poor? How many rich people were born to people who were born poor? How many white people were born in the ghetto, harassed from a young age by the police, saw shootings on a weekly basis, and saw their school get closed down by riots? How many white people get asked every single day where their parents are from (as I do, not being white but not being clearly anything else, either)? Most white people live in the same conditions relative to the rest of society that their parents did- is this some kind of individual success?
Very, very few individuals have done what you are asking blacks to do, and almost none of them were white. (That is not to say whites can’t do it, but the simple fact is that there are fewer whites than people of other races.)
lirelou added these pithy words on 24 Apr 06 at 8:45 amI would agree with Elizabeth that generalizations must be treated with caution, but I disagree with some (but not all) of her understandings of poverty. Certainly there are many factors which must be taken into consideration, and not all of them will effect members of a given population the same way. Attitude certainly has something to do with getting out of poverty, and attitudes can be class and community driven. To quote a co-worker of mine: Was it any accident that the first Black Secretary of State was of Jamaican descent? Not to anyone faintly familiar with the Afro-Caribbean diaspora from the Islands, to Panama, up through Central America, and on into New York. The early 20th Century Afro-Caribbean migrants brought in the basics of a British education and the certainty that they could make it. Many did, but some of the towns they populated along the way, Colon, Panama being one example, have since degenerated into crime ridden ghettos. Years of high unemployment and poor government have a way of doing that. Perhaps key to the success of the many who did make it in the U.S. was their acceptance of the idea that they would get a somewhat nuanced chance of proving themselves. My short, six month stint as a social worker in Massachusetts back in the late 1970s made me wonder why, within the Latin community, the Puertorricans were mostly on welfare, the Dominicans worked the factories and owned the Latin restuarants and markets, and the Cubans owned small factories. The highest paid Puertorrican in my small city worked for the mayor’s office, a slightly more upscale form of welfare. What was it that drove the Cubans, from White to Black, into manufacturing or the professions, and the Dominicans to accumulate capital and go into small businesses? Even in the drug business, and I saw only the small operators in the mistitled “Hispanic community”, the importers were Colombian, the distributors Dominicans, and the target market largely Puertorrican. My simplistic conclusion was that the Puertorricans had the (dis)advantage of arriving in the U.S. already entitled to full benefits. The Dominicans, many of whom were illegal, were entitled to none. Yet they, like the Cubans, who did have access to similar entitlement programs, generally lost no time in reaching out for the American dream. I believe that in both the latter cases, the shock of emerging themselves into an alien culture drove them to excel. But at the same time, they accepted the premise that they would get a piece of the American dream. All the Puertorricans ever heard from their self-appointed community leaders was how they were screwed from the very beginning, and how much the Gringoes hated them. I left convinced that for many, poverty was as much a mental state and any product of their environment. A parting question for Elizabeth: Can you give us a specific society that is more just than that of the US? Or aren’t any of us there yet?
snow added these pithy words on 24 Apr 06 at 9:08 am“How many middle-class people were born to parents who were born poor? How many rich people were born to people who were born poor?”
Plenty.
Give the victimhood a rest. Not all minorities have a horrible life, just as not all whites have a great life. I’m not saying that individualism will work the world over, but it is a personal individual decision that a person makes, no matter their color, as to what they do in life. If people can learn that it is within their own power to make decisions, however limited they may be, that it is up to them, hopefully they can make some choices that are better for themselves, and which may have nothing to do with the group.
snow added these pithy words on 24 Apr 06 at 9:18 amI know it’s certainly not easy to step out of a difficult background and make a successful life (however one might define it-and it’s not necessarily a piece of cake for whites either-it requires hard work at the very least) but I think most people of a minority group who have become successful, have done it by following their own individual inclinations. I’m thinking of a number of Canadian Natives who have done very well by making choices that led them to successful careers.
Elizabeth added these pithy words on 24 Apr 06 at 9:20 amSnow- I don’t think so. The New York Times did a study showing that very few people, white or black, had managed to change their class (statistically) in the past several decades.
I’m not portraying blacks or anyone else as victims. What I am saying is that what most people think of as their own achievement- their economic status- appears (statistically) to be much more a function of what their parents earned at the time of their birth than of anything they personally did. Very few people can take full responsibility for their station in life.
And, unlike others here who would be pleased to talk about “all blacks”, I certainly never said anything about “all blacks”. I never said they have a horrible life- it was my school that was closed due to shootings. I never really minded that, and certainly wouldn’t rate my life as horrible.
What I am saying is that whites would ask of blacks what most whites never had to achieve, which is to overcome not only poverty, but the stigma of belonging to a poor group, which is stamped on your forehead, and which you cannot erase.
Elizabeth added these pithy words on 24 Apr 06 at 9:50 amLirelou:
First, I must re-emphasize that I do not object to generalizations, which are the basis of nearly all of our reasonings and of science itself, but to some (though not all) of the generalizations made in this post. I depend very much on generalizations myself and would hate to be seen as a generalization-basher.
Regarding your last question: It depends who you ask. If you ask an American, he’s bound to tell you, “We got problems but it’s the best damn system in the world!” (Smacks table or waves imaginary flag.)
If you ask some others, you will find that the US ranks around 11th in terms of legal property rights, about 23rd in terms of commitment to human rights, with another report showing Finland as having the best environment in the world and German business owners are said to believe that their legal system is second to none. The US came in 10th overall in the Human Development Index, which reflects justice systems to some extent. Transparency International did a study in which 16 countries were rated less corrupt than the United States. Countries which consistently did better than the United States were Sweden, Finland, the United Kingdom (though worse in “quality of life”, mainly for weather-related reasons), Ireland, Iceland, New Zealand, and Singapore. Sorry for the lack of links, but my computer (I swear it’s true this time) cut out halfway through the post, and I lost the Internet history.
I would remind you that the US might be eminently just for white people (though I don’t think that’s true either), but black people face courts in different districts, with different public defenders, etc. If you imagine that the US ratings average out what the poor and rich face, you will see that the poor in the US must fall far below most European countries’ standards. (Most European countries- though certainly not all- have more egalitarian societies, thanks to effort and/or history, and thus do not face the same inequalities in the justice system.)
Lest you think that I’m only looking at liberal sites- I’m not. I had a hard enough time finding statistics, period. If you can find a single site in which the United States’ justice system, legal system, quality of life, standards of living, or anything besides hamburgers, is found to be best in the world when compared by an international panel to at least 50 other countries- I’ll grant it to you. I wasn’t able to.
Snow:
It’s certainly not impossible for an exceptional individual to achieve an exceptional feat. But here, we are talking about changing the fate of the group, which requires that most members of the said group achieve something exceptional. That is a different story.
Eddie added these pithy words on 24 Apr 06 at 9:52 amWhy has no one even mentioned the corrosive effect the war on drugs has had on black communities? How many fathers are in prison, leaving single moms to work 2-3 jobs with little time to raise their kids? How many addicts who require treatment instead have been sent to prison? How many neighborhoods suffered because of gang warfare related to the criminalization of drugs? This is a tragic story in almost every “Gap” in America, at least one that has a majority population of blacks.
Elizabeth added these pithy words on 24 Apr 06 at 10:27 amEddie- Very good point. I think it’s because most of us here have little experience with living in the ghetto. My own experience with poverty was as a child and is with people in poor countries- not as a young adult in the ghetto.
However I must point out that the gang wars started before the War on Drugs (in the 70s and 80s). It is not the War on Drugs that caused the import of drugs to raise, but a variety of other factors. Lack of access to the formal system in addition to the availability of an alternative (drugs via the mafia) led to turf wars, not the prohibition on drugs.
Joe added these pithy words on 24 Apr 06 at 1:10 pmThere seems to be an argument over cause and effect here—what’s the cause, and what’s the effect? Chirol says the black Gap in America is disconnected because of its culture; I say the culture comes from that disconnect. And it’s not a one-way street, of course: it’s a cycle, like so many other social problems.
Like physical inertia, social inertia requires great force to overcome. The question is, what kind of force can possibly overcome this? Hopefully the next post will shed light on that…
AMac added these pithy words on 24 Apr 06 at 1:10 pmModerator,
I’m new here, having arrived at this site by following links from Kirk Sowell. He’s left some thoughtful comments on interesting, well-reasoned posts. Chirol’s effort to use Barnett’s theories to gain insight into domestic inequalities looks fruitful. The first few comments expanded on, or took issue with, certain of Chirol’s points.
This morning, the conversation has moved from the particular to the general, with some very lengthy synopses of the sort of Oppression Theory material that is all too familiar to most of us from required attendance at 8am lectures during that first year of college.
Depending on the goals for the site, you may have a problem. I don’t think that patronizing recitations of Conventional Wisdom talking points are meant to stifle debate and tempt thoughtful readers to comment elsewhere. Unfortunately, that is a likely effect.
I would hope that the commenter in question, reading this, might recognize that concise remarks are more likely to sway the audience than lengthy screeds. Focused remarks are also more likely to provoke responses that the commenter would find interesting, and possibly even profit from.
Elizabeth added these pithy words on 24 Apr 06 at 1:31 pmAh, dear, the devil is in the details. I hold no “oppression theory” (actually I don’t even know what that is) or any other theory, but I do believe that when details are overlooked, they should be brought up.
By the way, if you think my posts are long and boring, just say it. “Elizabeth: Your posts are long and boring.” I think your posts are equally long for the amount that you are trying to say (I am at least giving generalizations and particulars).
Joe has summarized what I wrote very nicely, but without the important, convincing details. If you don’t want to argue with me, then just write a comment to Joe.
Chirol added these pithy words on 24 Apr 06 at 1:50 pmI agree with Elizabeth and with and Joe have both said. There’s a significant question here about cause and effect which I felt was somewhat implied by my examples. The historical examples, such as work not being connected to personal gain and thus not taking any pride in work and developing a good work ethic is a cultural cause because there wasn’t any free will to shape their culture until after the civil war and realistically until the Civil Rights Movement. Thus, certain things can be solidly identified as causes while others remain murky.
The problem remains though that the culture does exist now, regardless of whether it was an original cause or the effect of their position in society, and that’s something that Barnettian connectivity can’t fix.
The comment thread has indeed taken on a much broader scope than I aimed to cover, although it was somewhat expected. I welcome all the details Elizabeth and others would like to add to this discussion because how to connect our Gap is no easy question to answer. However, I and the next post will be concentrating on Core/Gap theory and its accuracy are the main points including its implications for the theory’s international application.
AMac added these pithy words on 24 Apr 06 at 2:06 pmElizabeth: Your longer posts appear to be broad-stroke analyses of the subject broached by Chirol according to the principals of Transnational Progressivism. Fonte (op. cit.) summarizes the major points of this ideology as:
1. The ascribed group over the individual citizen.
2. A dichotomy of groups: Oppressor vs. victim groups.
3. Group proportionalism as the goal of “fairness.”
4. The values of all dominant institutions to be changed to reflect the perspectives of the victim groups.
5. The “demographic imperative.”
6. The redefinition of democracy and “democratic ideals.”
7. Deconstruction of national narratives and national symbols of democratic nation-states in the West.
8. Promotion of the concept of postnational citizenship.
9. The idea of transnationalism as a major conceptual tool.Interested readers can follow the link and scroll down to the paragraph beginning with “The key concepts of transnational progressivism…” for Fonte’s elaborations.
In the comments here, you’ve offered your version of his points 1, 2, 4, and 5. I think such an analysis does not suffer from a concise presentation.
Chirol (seeing your response at the point of pressing Wot-Wot): Fair enough. Commenting here makes me a guest at your party; stating my concerns isn’t meant to impose my idiosyncrasies on the conversation. Carry on; I’ll lurk for a spell and await the promised follow-ons.
Joe added these pithy words on 24 Apr 06 at 3:58 pm::rolls eyes::
Ahh, Elizabeth, AMac, both of you. Take a semester of legal writing and you, too, will see the light: just about anything can be written to fit on a PowerPoint slide. Art be damned!
Dan tdaxp added these pithy words on 24 Apr 06 at 5:08 pm
The fact is, the group exists. There is a group, all humans with skin darker than a certain shade of beige and hair curlier than a certain level of kink, belong to, whether they like it or not. The borders of this group are just a little bit fuzzy but we all know a black person when we see him / her, even if the said person is “said identified”Â? with another group.Certainly this implies there should be no significant differences between blacks of American descent and blacks of Caribbean descent, yes?
AMac added these pithy words on 24 Apr 06 at 7:26 pmI apologize to Elizabeth for my earlier, intemperate comment on this thread (4:24pm 4/24/06).
Having now visted her blog, I can see that she brings unique and valuable perspectives to this discussion. Where I might or might not agree with her is obviously neither here nor there.
Regrets to Curzon as well.
Sonagi added these pithy words on 24 Apr 06 at 8:39 pmAmong the traits listed by Peters and attributed by Chirol to black Americans, I do not see how the following are more true of African-Americans:
*Restriction on the free flow of information
*The subjugation of women.
*The extended family or clan as the basic unit of social organization.
*Inability to accept responsibility for individual or collective failure.
Enron. World.com. FEMA. Iraq. I think Americans of all stripes, especially corporate executives and politicians are good at exonerating themselves by blaming others.
*Domination by a restrictive religion
Two words: religious right. I actually associate this characteristic more with whites than with blacks. I don’t think it was a black person who coined the phrase “intelligent design” and it isn’t mostly black districts that are shoving this pseudoscience into the curriculum. Evangelical Christianity and the Catholic Church are extremely restrictive and the upper hierarchy of decision makers is dominated by white men.
Chirol added these pithy words on 24 Apr 06 at 8:50 pmSonagi: I didn’t mean to imply they exhibited all those characteristics, only some of them, but I left the list complete to help illustrate the point in more than just the domestic area. I agree that all don’t fit and with your comments on the religious right
Curzon added these pithy words on 24 Apr 06 at 10:47 pmPersonally, I think Kaplan’s EMPIRE WILDERNESS is a lot more revealing on this subject than PNM.
Lexington Green added these pithy words on 24 Apr 06 at 11:05 pm“On a domestic level, PNM theory remains unproven. With no physical barrier to the Core nor any legal barriers (Jim Crow Laws etc.) to work or study, surprisingly little progress is being made.”
This is the key to the post.
I think “little progress” is not correct. Look at the condition of African Americans in 1956 and today. Massive progress. But very slow progress. And that progress occurred under highly optimal conditions—a strong government enforcing laws against discrimination, etc. What this experience suggests is that, contrary to PNM theory as Barnett sometimes seem sto articulate it, connectivity by itself will either not be effective or only slowly effective at overcoming pre-existing cultural practices and attitudes even under highly favorable conditions. So, closing the Gap is going to require much more than merely connectivity in any simple sense. Also the rate of closure will vary from place to place, and in some cases—one hates to say this—it may not be possible in any reasonable amount of time and at a cost that the Core will be willing to bear.
lirelou added these pithy words on 25 Apr 06 at 12:31 amElizabeth, some minor points. First, your statistical analysis can be found in the Economist. I accept all statistical analysis with a grain of salt, filtered by my own observations. For instance, you find European social systems more egalitarian. Yes, and if I were “Lirelou de Hautecloque” or somesuch, I assure you that I would be far better treated in French social and business circles than a lowly “Lirelou”. And this in the land that firmy believes that it invented “egalite”. By the way, what are the chances that an abandoned Black mother in 1911 would rise up to be a millionaire in an America where the KKK was then on the rise? Madame C.J. Walker, anyone? Yes, there are always those pesky exceptions to the lumbering herd that require us to occasionally question the premises we’ve drawn. Why is it that my first commanding officer in the American Army in 1962 was a Black? As was my brigade commander in 1967, and he went on to become a general. Why is it that my present boss is black,and he entered the Army from a college ROTC program after attending a Jesuit run High School? This as opposed to a poor White who was sleeping in a small room with three brothers when he left home to enlist at 17. A paradigm is like a parachute: You always have to check to make sure it is functioning. And a malfunctioning paradigm is like a malfunctioning parachute. It has to be cut away. Perhaps we have a “gap” because generations of theorists fashioned social programs that became vested rights and were retained long after their malicious effect on the poor (Black, White, and otherwise) was apparent.
Eddie added these pithy words on 25 Apr 06 at 1:18 amActually, there is substantial agreement from across the black political and social spectrum in regards to these traits (expect the last) listed by Peters and attributed (to some, not all) by Chirol.
(1)John McWhorter & (2) Bill Cosby on the conservative side, (3) Clarence Page & (4) Stanley Crouch in the moderate center & perhaps most eloquently of all, (5) Michael Eric Dyson, have all addressed this issues.
Indeed, one can venture back to Malcom X and W.E.B. DuBois & Booker T. Washington in the 60’s to hear some of the criticisms blacks are aiming at themselves now. It’s an often vicious but always virtuous cycle that has led to the creation of the NAACP, the civil rights gains in the 40’s and the civil rights movement of the 50’s & 60’s. What interrupted it for so long was the disastrous effect of the FBI’s war against black politicians and leaders (COINTELPRO), the infusion of crack and the federal government’s decision to promote a “hand-out, not a hand-up”Â?.
“¢Restriction on the free flow of information
The widespread persistence of conspiracy theories (like the most recent; that the authorities blew up the levees “Chinatown”Â? style in New Orleans during Katrina and the modern theory that the CIA flooded crack into urban cities) pollutes the free flow of information with fictional impediments to honest discussion, debate and education. Considering the damage the FBI inflicted upon black communities in mid to late 60’s, as well as the tragic (6) Tuskegee Syphillis Study and other instances of government abuse of the trust black people have in it, also provides a deeply painful historical context to the problems endemic in opening up debate, discussion and education across the black communities in the “Gaps”Â?.
“¢The subjugation of women
Have you watched Oprah lately? (j/k sort of) This debate has been ongoing and continues to play a large role in the context of black communities in the “Gaps”Â?.
With the high imprisonment rate of black males, many black women are left on their own to be providers for their families, as well as for their children if they have any. (This also ties into extended family as the basic unit of social organization). Yet, black youth (and sadly, middle-aged) culture overwhelmingly tilts into the “pimp, player, ho, bitch”Â? mentality that is prevalent in everything from rap videos to the relationships of common people. Black women in the “Gaps”Â? are often subjected to rampant abuse, dishonesty and discrimination, especially from black males. Studies into domestic violence in urban black communities confirms this sad fact. This is why the issue is so prominent, as everyone from the aforementioned public figures to prominent actors, musicians, rappers, preachers and politicians call for honoring the “black woman”Â? and taking steps to assist and share in their burdens.“¢The Extended Family as the basic unit of social organization)
(See above)”¦ also, considering that many black households in the “Gap”Â? are single parent households, this places enormous pressure on the rest of the family to assist in raising children, providing for households needs and sharing in responsibilities. As Peters argued it, this is fine and dandy but it also holds people back, as they’re constantly beholden to family responsibilities and needs.
“¢Inability to accept responsibility for individual or collective failure.
Malcom X noted this best, and its still prevalent today:
“Anytime you beg another man to set you free, you will never be free. Freedom is something that you have to do for yourself.”
This is a problem many people of all races, religions and classes in this country have. But it is highly prevalent in the black “Gap”Â? communities where all too often the ideas of hard work, independence and teamwork have been discredited by the aforementioned disasters in the black community mentioned in the above comments and some of those which I’ve dicussed in this comment.
I actually do agree that “dominant religion”Â? is not a problem in the black “Gap”Â? communities. Though there is heavy criticism from all quarters about the failure of black church leaders and corruption within the churches.
(1): John McWhorter
(2): Bill Cosby
(3): See here and here
(4): Stanley Crouch
(5): Michael Eric Dyson
(6): Tuskegee Airmen
snow added these pithy words on 25 Apr 06 at 4:12 am“Anytime you beg another man to set you free, you will never be free. Freedom is something that you have to do for yourself.”Â?
Never thought I’d ever agree with anything Malcolm X said, but definitely agree with him on this one.
Elizabeth added these pithy words on 25 Apr 06 at 4:22 amThanks to all of the people who replied to me and no apologies required. I know I am a terrible windbag- I have been told by my supervisors numerous times. It takes me longer to edit than to type, though… I will try to post this one without parentheses, hyphens or extra commas.
It’s not about oppression or deconstruction. I hate deconstruction theory.
My post was about the fact that most groups are not able to change their circumstances as easily as some might suppose. The traits above listed for poor people are not failures, but coping mechanisms adopted based on the knowledge that they are not going anywhere soon. You don’t have to be a genius to realize that you are just not the one black guy that’s gonna get out of the ghetto. At that point, you stop valuing what whitey thinks will help you and start looking at alternatives.
I would rather, therefore, see the cultural traits above presented as part of a vicious cycle, not as a fault, and the situation of blacks as one that is mainly historical, with the caveat that this applies to majorities, and not to inviduals. I wouldn’t deny that there are great opportunities for individuals.
How does this relate to the Gap? When we look at the peoples in the Gaps, we need to look at them as rational, intelligent groups of people who are dealing with their situation in the way they think is the most likely to bring them security and possibly personal gain. This explains a lot more than when we look for why they failed, because a lot of war and peace comes down to the weather, circumstance, and luck. Looking to blame those in the Gap leads to misconceptions about what kind of people must live there, and why. I am trying to bring out this side of looking at the gap.
Joe: Power Point is the worst thing to happen to the English language. Well, maybe not the worst, but up there in the top ten, surely.
(Shorter, but less clear.)
Elizabeth added these pithy words on 25 Apr 06 at 4:35 amI just read Fonte. I do not think that Transnational Progressivism represents my views at all. I was describing, not prescribing.
And Lirelou: I would not have put France in the “more egalitarian” category, for that very reason. I lived there for about nine months (six in a row) and I know it’s not egalitarian. I was thinking of the Nordic countries, Central European countries (new), and a few others.
AMac added these pithy words on 25 Apr 06 at 5:43 am> When we look at the peoples in the Gaps, we need to look at them as rational, intelligent groups of people who are dealing with their situation in the way they think is the most likely to bring them security and possibly personal gain.
Alternatively, People’s choices make sense to them, at the time those choices are made. That doesn’t, alas, imply likely acceptable outcomes. Or that the choosers were necessarily rational and intelligent. Or self-disciplined, or in possession of adequate information…
It’s (nearly) impossible to live in a US metropolitan area with a Gap and not witness bad decisions and their consequences. Both impersonal forces (such as high unemployment) and the exercise of autonomous free will are at work, I think.
Elizabeth added these pithy words on 25 Apr 06 at 6:03 amIt’s true that many people are not in possession of adequate information, and people do make bad choices. But I think that people’s choices are more rational than “make[s] sense to them” implies.
Generally, people choose paths that guarantee success in the short to mid-term. Most people do not make the choice to take huge risks that might (but might not) bring great success to the wider community. They are concerned about personal success, security and (to a lesser extent in the US, but to a great extent in some Gap countries) survival. The choices they make are guaranteed to bring them what they can foresee as realistically possible. Some of them might be wrong, but considering how hard it is to get out of poverty once you’re in it, a lot of them might be right that it’s not worth the effort.
I would emphasize that I agree that for an individual, his or her decisions play a great role in what happens to him / her. But groups don’t make choices, which means that the fate of a group is often beyond the control of the individuals in that group, and the group as a whole.
AMac added these pithy words on 25 Apr 06 at 6:43 am> people choose paths that guarantee success in the short to mid-term.
Yep (well except for the ‘guarantee’). And some choices aren’t rational, based on what people say they want.
Dan tdaxp added these pithy words on 25 Apr 06 at 12:16 pm
But groups don’t make choices, which means that the fate of a group is often beyond the control of the individuals in that group, and the group as a whole.Of course societies make choices.
Now, that assumes a group is a society—it actually exists. A group that’s an accounting fiction wouldn’t make choices, of course, because it doesn’t exist.
Elizabeth added these pithy words on 25 Apr 06 at 1:02 pm“Of course”? Sounds like Mr. Bloom has an interesting theory there (reminds me of Heidegger or something), but I don’t buy it. Choice requires consciousness, and if there’s anything more difficult to pin down than individual consciousness, it’s group consciousness. I’ll grant that if you believe in group consciousness, then you can have group choice.
I honestly didn’t think that group consciousness would be a big hit on a message board like TCA, but you learn something new every day. Thanks, Dan, for bringing the metaphysics of identity and consciousness into the debate.
Dan tdaxp added these pithy words on 25 Apr 06 at 1:14 pmWhy must complex adaptive systems be conscious, and in what way are such networks metaphysical?
Elizabeth added these pithy words on 25 Apr 06 at 1:21 pmWell, I suppose it depends on what theory of choice you… but let’s not discuss this here, for crying out loud. Please refer me to an appropriate place to comment on your blog, and I’ll answer there.
Chirol added these pithy words on 25 Apr 06 at 3:52 pmElizabeth: “Magic Cloud Dan” can’t go more than a few comments without jumping up to the meta level! There’s a reason why people recommend treating one’s self to a beer after his posts. One day we’ll all be able to say we knew the mad genius back before he took over the world!
Sonagi added these pithy words on 25 Apr 06 at 9:13 pmEddie,
I read your post very carefully. You provided evidence that prominent black Americans have been critical of behaviors that hold African-Americans back. This evidence of criticism does not prove that Peters’ traits are MORE true of blacks than of other races in America. Save for extreme white supremacist groups, there are no white leaders addressing white America, so you’re not going to hear, say, Bob Bennett, urging white people to take more responsibility for themselves.
As for destructive rumors that hamper the “free flow of information,” I am reminded of the Jeff Gannon scandal and the fact that politicians in both parties pay millions of dollars to PR groups and consultants to obfuscate, mislead, and flat-out lie to the American people about serious issues like Iraq and global warming.
Regarding the subjugation of women, I do not see how the high rate of imprisonment of black men shows that black culture subjugates women more than mainstream culture. Women of all races are treated as sex objects in entertainment, influencing ordinary women to spend a disproportionate amount of their income on make-up, clothes, and even plastic surgery. In fact, almost 95% of breast augmentation surgery is performed on white women.
The Extended Family as the Basic Unit of Social Organization is not synonymous with single parenting. In most traditional societies, children are raised in a household with married parents and a large, extended family network.
To summarize my counterpoints to your post, you’ve shown to some degree, Eddie, that Peters’ traits are true of black Americans. You’ve not shown that they are substantially more true of black Americans than of Americans of other races.
