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Curzon
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Curzon

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April 13th, 2006

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On Foreign Language Skills and Living Abroad

“What do they know of England who only England know?”
Rudyard Kipling, late 19th century.

“Marquer” disagrees with my recent statement that learning foreign languages (or at least a foreign language) is one of the more valuable skills a geopolitical player should learn, saying a translator can make up for that and that learning about science and technology is more important. Joe at MutantFrog.com made a similar assertion last year in his post on the economics of language learning.

I would not recommend that an adult over thirty spend too much time learning a language. By then, it’s too late for most people. But living abroad at a young age is an invaluable experience. On multiple levels.

I admit that this bias comes from my own background. I first lived in Japan when I attended a rural public high school at the age seventeen. Being a teenager, it was pretty easy to learn the language, or at least easier than many people who I see trying to learn in college or as professionals. The direct value of the experience has paid off in spades: it allowed me to attend Japanese university and take lectures on “real” subjects (i.e. lectures on economics, law, and politics as opposed to language classes), and it has helped my career immensely.

But there’s more to speaking a foreign language than speaking a foreign language. Effectively wielding the skill requires a “sense” and understanding of a different culture and people. Living in Japan taught me much about Japan, but also concepts of linguistics and insight into human nature. You learn to deal with the fact that some things can never be translated; different cultures think and act differently; you must learn to say the “same thing” in different ways; the appropriateness of ettiquette, humor, and custom varies wildly; and much more. You naturally grow conscious of certain elements of surroundings in a foreign setting that can help you cope in any foreign environment. These are all skills that are invaluable in international dealings, especially geopolitical communications that decide the fate of nations.

None of this means that a person without language skills can’t be a good negotiator or effective world leader. But after my year in Japan, I returned to America with entirely new eyes. No, they hadn’t physically narrowed. But I saw things differently. With a basis of comparison, I understood my own country better (or as Matt of Occidentalism.org once said, “going abroad made me more Australian.”) And as Kipling said in the quote above, the more you know another country, the more you know about not just the world, but your own country as well.

Comments to this entry

Admiral
April 13, 2006
2:57 pm
I couldn't agree more.

It has been speculated on Awkward Utopia and The Economist that the widening labor force at the bottom, crossing every sort of national line except the North Korean one (and that, for long?), has greatly facilitated the enormous rise in executive compensation given by massive corporations in the United States. There are similar rises in European corporations, although not quite at the meteoric pace of American ones and with good reason given the stated reason.

Although you may not think learning a language involving these markets is important, consider that once learning a Master's may not have been seen as a necessary condition for competing for all kinds of positions. Alack, there it is today. Similarly, with a bit of foresight, we might see any number of low-level / starting positions requiring foreign language proficiency to set you above the rest and it may become the norm.

Curzon's professional life benefitting from his knowledge may seem a minority now, but several, and boy do I mean several, years down the road we can foresee this event. The economics are shifting.

Then we come to the utility of it all. Your utility curve may not respond well to language learning-- you could be indifferent or prefer just about anything else to it-- but for those whom it does make a difference, well, just read Curzon's post. It's a nice exposition on what a difference a language can make. If you follow Tsunoda, the linguist, you might think that an actual language shapes your brain and this is why only the 'Japanese act Japanese.' While most of us linguistics are loathe to go that far, the influence on perception seems widely accepted in the community-- and for good reading on this subject, which essentially echoes Curzon's points, check out "Takao Suzuki's Words in Context":http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0870116428/102-7078762-1900916?v=glance&n=283155.

It's hard to understand the value of going abroad and/or learning another language without trying, though. I used to say, "Why would anyone leave America? It's so big, you could explore it all your life and still start adventures anew." Well... true... but you'll see.

As for myself, I'm going to Yogyakarta, Indonesia from 6/1 to 8/13. Woo hoooo!
Sonagi
April 13, 2006
4:38 pm
Curzon,

After a long absence, I returned to your blog aand was delighted to find this entry. I couldn't agree more based on my first-hand experiences in Korea and China.

@Admiral: "If you follow Tsunoda, the linguist, you might think that an actual language shapes your brain and this is why only the "ËœJapanese act Japanese.'"

I think the language/culture relationship is a bit like the chicken and the egg. One example is the Korean adjective "sunjinhanda," which is translated into English as "naive, pure, innocent." The English equivalents seem positive or neutral, but the original Korean word has a somewhat negative connotation. A Korean describes another Korean as "sunjinhanda" with a tone of slight distain. I look at the "sunjinhan" Korean and think they're just a nice and pleasant person. Which came first - the negative perception of this personality characteristic or the word itself?

Most CA readers have studied another language and many have lived abroad. No doubt most of us could write a long list of words that both reflect and shape a culture.
Younghusband
April 13, 2006
6:23 pm
100% percent agree with ice cream on top. Learning another language, and living in another country, gives you a whole new perspective on life. You are able to recognize everything that you would normally take for granted. This is something that is directly translatable in the field of geopolitics (ie. counteracting the problem of "mirror-imaging") I recommend going for a third country/language as well, since the extra perspective will give you a strong foundation for dealing with people.

Before I lived abroad I had no sense of the immense impact international politics has on our daily lives. Only by seeing it firsthand was the curiosity and need to participate sparked in me.

And like Admiral said, this kind of experience will only be a boon in the future.
Chirol
April 13, 2006
6:51 pm
Seeing as I'm the last one to get to this post, I'll have to echo that I couldn't agree more. I've lived in Germany for close to four years (though not all at once, 2yrs and going atm) and spent one semester in Denmark. In addition, I used the convenient geography as a base to explore another two dozen countries. Nothing sparked my personal development more than going abroad for the first time and like YH, it was exactly this that ultimately led me to geopolitics. It's impossible to overestimate how importang going and living abroad is.
Joe
April 13, 2006
7:25 pm
Wank wank wank wank wank.

Learning a foreign language is great, but y'all are making way too much of it. All it does is give you new people to talk to and new books to read. If you know English, you don't need any additional language skills to get by... that's the way the world is these days.

Languages are just icing on the cake. I think that many people who learn a foreign language, especially if it's something unorthodox, get into a "Look, Ma!" sort of mood with it. Understandable: you need ways to distinguish yourself to get ahead in this world. But that doesn't make the language the key.

Going abroad--now that's good for you, whether you speak the local language or not. Traveling in general is good for the mind, even if it's within your own country. Beliefs come from experience; the more you experience, the more developed your beliefs will be. I don't think you need to learn foreign languages for that, though, unless you grew up speaking some backwards provincial tongue like Japanese :)
Sonagi
April 13, 2006
8:35 pm
Communication is an experience, Joe. Not speaking the local language is like being deaf in one ear. You can still hear, but you miss a lot.
Younghusband
April 13, 2006
9:19 pm
Joe: stop before your wrist gets sore.

If I had to choose between the two I think travel is the way to go, but language capabilities provide for deeper insights into how other cultures work. A combination of the two is ideal, and an invaluable experience for those of us interested in foreign policy.
Dan tdaxp
April 13, 2006
10:10 pm
A combination of the two is ideal, and an invaluable experience for those of us interested in foreign policy.


Possibly excepting realists and material determinists, and those that focus on memetics.
Yago
April 13, 2006
11:05 pm
the theory that language shapes perception is not widely accepted, as far as I know. The Sappir-Whorf hypothesis is usually discredited. But of course it is important to express yourself.
lirelou
April 14, 2006
12:46 am
I took Marquer's statement on mathmetics and science in a positive light, implying that a grounding in basic hard skills is far more important than the language issue, but noted that language skills are basic to diplomacy (and intelligence). I have known more than the occasional smooth talking linguist who was more than a little deficient on their basic skills, and the locals depending upon those skills were quick to pick up on that fact, which undercut the credibility of the speaker. In the 1978 School of the Americas in Panama, between classes on overthrowing democracies and torturing dissidents (note: dark humour meant for the idiots out there who truly believe such), we had to teach such titillating subjects as: mechanized infantry in the attack, defence, etc. The instructor assigned to this "block"� was a ramrod thin young Puertorrican officer totally fluent in Spanish. He had a sense of humour, and kept his Bolivian cadet class in stitches, but all his service was in headquarters and light infantry. When it came time for the "bayonet sheets"� the Bolivians universally rated the instruction low. A remedial effort was quickly pasted together, extra classes laid on, and an old hard-bitten captain with both tank and infantry experience in armored and cavalry units called in. His Spanish often required help from the class, but he both expert in his subject and dynamic in his instruction. The Bolivian cadre sent laudatory notes to the Commandant, and their mech-infantry field problem was later rated among their most professionally rewarding experiences at the School. Core competence in one's field counts for more than language skills, but language skills should be neither over nor underrated. They are important, especially in fields where absolute preciseness is required. They are especially important when one is using in an interpreter. Someone has to monitor the interpreter, otherwise the widgets may be wodgets. As a Parthian shot, I would note that Anastacio Somoza pére, newly returned to Nicaragua with a degree from Wharton Business School, laid the basis for his rise to power as an interpreter working for the U.S. Marines. In some fields, depending upon interpreters can be self-defeating.
Younghusband
April 14, 2006
1:41 am
Dan: living abroad is what turned me into a realist.

Yago: you are correct sir.

lirelou: I think the core competence of understanding international politics (if it ever can really be understood) does require first-hand knowledge of other cultures. Of course analysts have to be competent in a broad range of fields (history, economics, psychology, etc) but overseas experience is what makes the difference between a ramrod thin young rookie and Jack Ryan.
moorethanthis
April 14, 2006
1:53 am
Good post, Curzon (though all the other language enthusiasts seem to have beat me to it). I'd definitely agree that language study offers more insight into how cultures (and people) work, including your own. Conclusion: travel all you want, but at least pick up a bit of the lingo while you're there.
Pavlov3
April 14, 2006
2:15 am
lirelou,
Reminds me of a foreign Army Officer that used to ask me questions from time to time. He had zero English ability, and his questions were very technical (ie. not your basic fluency level). The thing was, I always knew what he was talking about, and answered him in the most direct (ie simple) way. He remarked one day that my language skills were better than my predecesor who was a native speaker of the language to age 15. Point being, you need the hard skills and the language skills, but as one already said "Engineering is Engineering", so I will say fire and manuever is universal.
Curzon
April 14, 2006
2:22 am
To play my own devil's advocate, and to agree with part of what Joe and Lirelou said, language is not _the_ most important factor. History, psychology, economics, geography... all of these are important, and technology and science are important as well. Certainly fluency in another language does not make up for deficiencies elsewhere.
bc99
April 14, 2006
2:50 am
I can't say anything here that hasn't been said before. Curzon's entry was a delight to read and gave me fond memories of studying in Germany for one year and working for one year in the Czech Republic. And as ironic as it sounds you really DO learn more about your country by being away learning and absorbing another culture and language. Later this fall I will be moving to one of the islands in the Caribbean for medical school, and I think my time in Europe and here in the U.S.A. makes me even more prepared for the transition.
Joe
April 14, 2006
4:14 am
I personally think this post, and many of the comments that follow it, are explained by the old saying: "When all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail."

I'm happy to have my overseas experience, and if I had to go back in time, I would want to do it again. But it's not for everyone, and it certainly has different effects on different people, based in large part on their lifestyle, their goals and their background.

We're all interested in geopolitics here, and many of us have taken the plunge and immersed ourselves in life abroad, so of course we're going to want to say it's awesome, i.e. totally sweet, because we enjoyed it enough to make the world our intellectual playground.

That doesn't make it invaluable. Like Curzon, I spent a year of high school in Japan. But quite a few of the people I went abroad with ended up feeling as if they had wasted a year of their lives. The value really depends on the person and the circumstances.
Mike
April 14, 2006
6:49 am
Time abroad is only what you make of it, like any other opportunity in life. I too know people who felt like studying abroad was the biggest waste of time in their entire college experience. That said I value my time in China highly.

English is the most valuable language in the world right now. No question. Native speakers who learn one or more difficult foreign languages improve their marketability and open new opportunities for themselves. In my view, languages are best viewed as an effective complement to other skills such as business or the social sciences, or even the hard sciences.

Only in certain areas, such as intelligence, advertising, translation, and perhaps the media, are they in any way invaluable.
marquer
April 14, 2006
7:59 am
Few things are more discomfiting than to find oneself in stout disagreement with someone whose opinions one would normally respect and defer to.

I subscribe completely to Curzon's conception that having deep fluency in tongues other than one's own, and immersion in cultures other than one's primary culture, lends immeasurably to flexibility and competence when having to understand and negotiate across borders. And it would be devoutly to be wished that the pool of individuals with such experiences were larger than it is; the small base which does exist is an underutilized national treasure.

Unfortunately, in contemporary America, there is little impulse to seek beyond the borders. It is one of the symptoms of our national cultural rot. The number of affluent adult university graduates who have never owned an active passport can be a shock to international visitors. Correctly so.

And linguistic breadth is rarest of all, especially in the difficult non-European tongues. I am put in mind of a gaijin gentleman working in an office in Tokyo, who was asked by a Japanese co-worker intent on polishing his already impressive English, "Can you help me with a prefix question? A person who speaks three languages is 'trilingual'. A person who speaks two is 'bilingual'. What is a person who speaks only one language?" To which, of course, the answer was "An American."

For the time being, we are going to have to work adaptively with what we have got, which is still usually monolinguality. As dire as the prospect may be.

And for that matter, as amusing as the prospect may be at times. I do still laugh at the recounting of George W. Bush first campaigning in Texas in the 1990s, and making a play for the Hispanic immigrant vote in fractured prep school Spanish. He didn't seem to realize that the banner behind him which had been intended to read, "Juntos Podemos," "Together We Can," actually said "Juntos Pedemos," or "We Fart Together."

Hearkening back to the original notion that history, geography and language should form the Trinity of geopolitical instruction, and to my demurral that STEM disciplines (science, technology, engineering and mathematics) might well be of more utility than language, a few further comments.

If severely pressed for candidates, I would take someone with a genuinely solid grounding in history over one in geography. I have observed on many occasions that serious students of history often absorb substantial geographical knowledge as an ancillary topic. The process works in the opposite direction, but neither as completely nor as reliably.

I believe that disciplined pupils are capable of learning history, geography or STEM rudiments at any age, and with rapidity given good source texts. Language training is much more of a roll of the dice. Especially in languages with a very different syntactic model or a non-Latinate alphabet. The plasticity of the neural systems for language coding really do have to be leveraged during their period of maximum receptivity in youth.

However, when I state that learning these disciplines can be done "with good source texts," this should not be construed to endorse the idea that such suitable source texts are always close to hand. For example, the materials used for historical instruction in contemporary American universities, even elite ones, are what I think most here would correctly consider to be mush. It would be an illuminating topic of discussion to hear what the C-A regulars would suggest as a curriculum with rigor.

Let me close with two anecdotes which underscore the need for improved STEM backgrounds in our political class.

I knew a university professor who was working in a recondite area of materials science deemed to be of national importance, for defense and other purposes. He was brought to D.C. to provide a summary of new developments. While there, the head of a Federal agency said to him, "I've just been overseas on an inspection tour to see what's up, and the Europeans and the Japanese are kicking our asses. I want to know precisely when your next breakthrough is scheduled for."

Which was followed by a long silence, during which my professor was trying to figure out how best to explain that scientists do not necessarily know when, or if, or how, a breakthrough might occur.

In another example, the deep space exploration section of the Jet Propulsion Laboratory hosted a Senator from one of the appropriations committees. They showed him a digital animation of what the Cassini probe would look like as it approached Saturn.

"This is great," their eminent guest said, as they beamed. "This is better than great. It's fantastic! Instead of spending all this money to launch robots to send us back pictures, now we can just get the pictures from a simulation. I love computers."

After which there was, again, a long silence.
Matt
April 14, 2006
8:47 am
I'd like to add something that many of you may disagree with. I think that anyone living overseas for any significant lengh of time (defined as more than six months, perhaps) _ought_ to study the local language simply as a matter of respect for their country of residence.

I grew up in California, a state that absorbs a disproportionate amount of America's recent immigrants. It used to rankle me that there were individuals living in California for decades who never learned English. I suppose one of my prime motivating factors for learning Chinese (I now live in China) was not becoming one of the people I once disdained.

There are plenty of foreigners here in China that choose not to study Chinese for a variety of reasons, most of which are mere excuses. Instead, I suppose, they prefer to sit in overpriced bars eating club sandwiches and whining about how strange the locals are.
Younghusband
April 14, 2006
1:08 pm
Joe said:

bq. I'm happy to have my overseas experience, and if I had to go back in time, I would want to do it again. But it's not for everyone, and it certainly has different effects on different people, based in large part on their lifestyle, their goals and their background.

Very true Joe.

I would like to do an "AHP analysis":http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Analytic_Hierarchy_Process of all this. I think it would be very interesting to see what the "perfect" candidate would look like. So far we have got:

Languages
Overseas Experience
History
Geography
STEM

If you guys are up for a bit of pairwise comparison, I can whip up a matrix and have you all fill it out, then do the all the squaring and and geomeaning and post the results. Anybody interested?
moorethanthis
April 14, 2006
2:07 pm
anyone living overseas for any significant lengh of time (defined as more than six months, perhaps) ought to study the local language simply as a matter of respect for their country of residence.

Well said. It's just simple respect, not wanting to end up one of those embarassing expats who do nothing but bitch about the place they're in (Japan has a lot of these characters), and it goes back to Curzon's statement about picking up on the subtleties of culture. For that, you need some kind of insight, and for me language is one of the best and most rewarding ways to provide that insight. Even if you're not a language enthusiast, it helps to just learn a few words or phrases to use in a meeting.
CTDeLude
April 14, 2006
6:38 pm
It's funny how out of place I feel sometimes reading these posts, let alone actually engaging myself in the dicussion. I come from simple parents who world view on became slightly larger then a penny when they left New Hampshire to move to California because "that's where the bodybuilding industry is." (My father being a bodybuilder/nutrionist) None of my family (including extended members) have graduated college. I am the first attempting to do so. Unfortunately I am also now married at 24 and such a task is now daunting in scope (yet fully willing to do it). I've also long been fascinated by the people, history and culture of Japan (I believe that is how I came here) and it has become my area of study. But yet now when I read a post like this I wonder if, to use a phrase, I have missed the boat. My wife is quite supportive and our life is not what you can consider normal (she's a quasi celebrity singer in the Philippine community both here in California and in the Philppines itself and thus some activitives revolve around this) but as one can guess or know the rigors of married life is makes one a little less carefree then one was when single. Now granted I have plenty to blame myself for missing the boat as school (at least as it is out here) is a relentless chore where trying to learn something you want to learn or have interest in is like pulling teeth from a grizzly. Thus my attention waned in the midst of general ed. Of course reading well reason and educated posts and comments here remind me others made it through, so should have I.

I guess the reason for being so verbose (read blabbing) is that I feel almost at a crossroads where either I go down the path I want in study and life or I conform to "normality" which is something I largely loathe. I've never been one to want the simple 9 to 5 as I've wanted my life to have impact beyond the 3 walls of an office cubicle. Having never had a figure who did that though growing up has left me with the feeling that I have a desire to do something, but no map as to the how. So I read this and find myself inspired, but also with a sense of "What the hell are you doing with yourself?" Maybe time will only tell me which sense will have the greater impact on my life. I know I have taken the dicussion on a far tangent but I feel better getting that out. I love the site (also love the figures you have chosen to represent you as I am also a big fan of Sir Richard Burton) and want to thank everyone for providing me a little reminder that where I'm currently type this from (at work) is NOT the last stop on this train.
Adamu
April 14, 2006
10:18 pm
Some thoughts from someone with a similar personal history to Joe and Curzon (minus the law school):

That last comment reminds me just how annoying it must be when people try and push time abroad as some kind of mind-altering experience. Yes, it can be. But at the same time I'm reminded of my high school years when everyone had sky high hopes for the future that went almost uniformly unrealized. Just as no one you know is going to grow up and be the President, the opportunities to go abroad and live like a loser backpacker hippy just aren't there for people with families or without money. Or with felonies on their record. Or sick pets.

Such blind optimism about the future stems from personal success or otherwise anecdotal experience and helps no one one but the broadcaster of the message. One should hope we can find hope within ourselves without putting down others. But in fact a lot of the braggarts who pat themselves on the back for being international are hopeless dorks who need to believe that they're special. Not that different from being a Trekkie. It's the kind of pretentious fake sophistication that Starbucks has masterfully marketed in this country.

Joe is right: learning a language/living abroad is not for everyone, and it is most definitely not a panacea for ignorance. In fact, a good amount of the expats I've known use their experiences abroad to justify their own beliefs in whatever, or end up swallowing the lies fed to them by society they live in.

Some people here have gushed about how much they learned about their own country while they were away. Indeed, there's no way to replicate the feeling you get when you notice all the little differences. But I have a slightly different story. I spent so much time concentrating on and living in Japan that I had to go back and relearn what was so good about being here in the US.

And another thing: learning a language out of "respect" for a country strikes me as disingenuous. Is paying for language classes some kind of courtesy gift? That's just the "if you're in America you should learn to speak English" mentality that is typical of monolingual locals. People only learn a language when it's in their own personal interest (get chicks, get a job, barter down the price of electronics) and simple gratitude just doesn't cut the mustard. Sure, you don't want to make an ass of yourself, but I'm not sure if you actually owe it to a country to take some language classes just because it gave you a visa and and let you spend your money there. And it's not like learning the language will necessarily get the country or its people to "respect" you back. Quite the contrary - if you speak with a stupid accent people will make fun of you.

And what about the opposite? If you have no respect for a country would you then refuse to learn the language? This is a dilemma faced by millions of America-hating ESL students (and reminds me of the post on Napoleon's attempts to learn English as reported here on CA).
Curzon
April 15, 2006
1:15 am
Adamu's comment is very well put. I have no disagreements. Actually, I don't disagree with anything that's been written here by anyone. Sometimes the overseas experience works for people. Sometimes it doesn't. _Que sera sera._

CTDeLude: clearly, there's only one option for a person like yourself. Go to law school! (Half kidding)

The biggest problem about studying a history or culture of a different country is that this doesn't translate into a better job. When I got back from Japanese high school, I started at a US college and worked part time at a financial information company in their Japanese funds division (it was the late 1990s -- they were giving out jobs to anyone with two legs). But what I realized then was that knowing a language wasn't itself enough to get me outside the cubicle (unless you're one of those people who can turn it into a profession as a professor or think-tanker, or if you're going into a career in world affairs or politics, elected or administrative).

Basically, don't forget the line that started this post: "the three most important disciplines a *geopolitical player* must study are history, geography, and a foreign language." Knowing another culture does not translate into better job prospects, although it does open up some doors.
adamu
April 15, 2006
1:35 am
Oh sure, I get you were talking about the Churchills of the world, but you must forgive such a story reminding me of matters closer to home.

Indeed, a Curzon would make a far better future leader than your average young republican in the student senate. Maybe if the French-speaking John Kerry were elected he'd have saved our asses somehow.
Mike
April 15, 2006
1:35 am
Actually, one of the things that studying abroad did for me was highlight the contrast between life in the USA and elsewhere, and made me more cognizant and appreciative of what I'd always had at my fingertips.

Two other things I found interesting. First, the idea that 'STEM' is as good if not better than linguistic skills. Yes, it is, and it is among my utmost regrets that I am not more talented/educated in that area. My father was a civil engineer and was able to do a tremendous number and types of work throughout his life. My talents are primarily linguistic and cultural. I've struggled with math for years and eventually reached a point where I decided to indulge in what I was inherently good at instead. I think everyone gets to that point, but I agree with the poster's main point, that many 'educated' people just have no clue and need to be better rounded. The idea of a real liberal arts education is being lost to proficiency testing and other such nonsense. Of course, you can also get a scientist with no cultural knowledge at all, but he's going to do okay financially as long as he produces.

Adamu: As for respect, it never really came into the equation for me. I think it is a ancillary benefit of whatever other reason one would have for learning the language. Chinese gets respect, yes, but the sort of respect I'm interested in is professional, then academic, and then personal. It's nice to have Chinese people tell me that I speak well, but it's better to get a job I like. It also opens up (eventually) more reading material and allows me to travel more freely.

CTD: If you are, or you become really good at something, nothing should stop you.
Curzon
April 15, 2006
1:51 am
Kerry's overseas experience was, I suppose, to his advantage. Too bad the rest of his qualities were so bad that he would have been an awful leader. I appreciate the kind comparison between me and college Republicans :D
marquer
April 15, 2006
7:34 am

...it is among my utmost regrets that I am not more talented/educated in that area. My father was a civil engineer and was able to do a tremendous number and types of work throughout his life. My talents are primarily linguistic and cultural. I've struggled with math for years and eventually reached a point where I decided to indulge in what I was inherently good at instead.

The world needs linguistic and cultural aptitudes as well.

Perhaps what is most important about STEM disciplines for persons who do not actually practice them is to achieve some understanding of how scientists, engineers, and their ilk *do* practice.

That understanding is neither universal nor automatic within STEM communities themselves. I've met a fair number of engineers who were resolute cookbook designers, not often called upon to do new or innovative things, and who were not particularly clear on the scientific method. Contrariwise, I've seen a few scientists who failed to shine when asked to do the grunt work of taking exploratory mechanisms to scaled-up production.

I would infer that you likely picked up a reasonable background in this stuff by dint of having had someone in the family whose professional life you could observe.

And as far as struggles with math are concerned, I have met a great many highly intelligent persons who have struggled similarly. Much of this appears to me to be an artifact of the curriculum. The instructional style practiced by most mathematical professionals is pretty spare and terse. Textbooks are often horribly dry. People who come to the game with native mathematical aptitudes don't notice the deficiency. Those who lack inherent talent, but are still capable of learning if well taught, often get discouraged and turned off. This needs to be improved across the board.
Younghusband
April 15, 2006
2:33 pm
Marquer, interesting point on innovation and workflow. My interest in design (and industrial design) has translated into other fields including organizational design. In other words, understanding why an engineer built a certain product in that way has influenced my view on how people should work alone or in groups. Then again, my background in linguistics has informed me as to when not to engage in polemics. The point is, a wide breadth of knowledge lends itself to insightful horizontal thinking. But, there is a point when you become spread too thin. Specialization is necessary at some point. That's what gets you a job.
lirelou
April 19, 2006
8:26 am
I picked this up from the Straits Times, and thought it might be both of interest and pertinent to many points made. "Language skills can also be useful for living at home.":http://straitstimes.asia1.com.sg/forum/story/0,5562,385969,00.html?
Kirk H. Sowell
April 23, 2006
12:34 am
I would actually go so far as to say that it is impossible to truly understand a foreign society if you do not know the language. I think that this is even true for countries with similar cultures, such as Western Europe for an American. Example: Of all the countries of Europe other than Britain, I feel that I understand France better than any by far because I know French, but not the language of other countries. You might think that translated materials might suffice, but they don't, and here's the key - reading documents in translation means reading documents selected by others, without being able to judge whether these materials are representative or not, but if you know the language, you can read anything you want. Having spent a lot of time reading stuff in French over time has given me a feel for the political culture and society that is irreplaceable. I've recently begun watching a French-language Swiss TV channel - Tele Suisse Romande - and naturally it has added a lot to my understanding of Swiss - or at least French Swiss - society, even though I have never lived there.

Without knowledge of the language, you can get a log of information for sure. I don't know Italian well enough to read an Italian newspaper, but know that their economy is in the toilet, that Berlusconi is not the free market reformer he claims to be, that Italians have a massive demographic problem, and so on. But I don't begin to have the feel for Italian politics and society that I do for that of France.

Knowing Arabic allows me to follow events in the Arab world in a way that would simply be impossible otherwise. If you think otherwise, then I would suggest that this is because you don't know what you are missing - indeed you can't, because you can't read a representative sample of the materials out there, you can't talk to people in that society who don't speak English, and so on.

All of this assumes, of course, that you really need to have that level of understanding of the foreign society. Often you do not, and as a practical matter, no one has the time to learn all the languages necessary to so understand all the countries he might have an interest in.
Matt
April 29, 2006
7:03 pm
The word that ought to be used here is assimilation. If you know the language, live like a native, and hang out with the natives, on top of studying the history and culture, you are going to have advantages that other people don't have in dealing with that culture. Meeting a stranger for the first time is difficult enough, reaching an agreement in politics or business is even more difficult. It's a skill like any other, some people have it and some don't. Knowing that culture gives you an edge. It's not a singularly valuable skill, like engineering, but combined with other skills it becomes a powerful advantage.

At least that's what I'm telling all the companies that I'm sending my resume to.
Elizabeth
April 30, 2006
8:33 am
I agree with Curzon 100%. When you learn a foreign language, you get the following experiences which are invaluable for any diplomat:

(1) You know firsthand how it feels for the non-native speaker of English to try to communicate with you in English. This makes you more sympathetic, and the speaker more comfortable (he/she knows you understand how he/she feels). It's not the same as saying, "Well, your English is better than my Japanese!" which just makes you look foolish.

(2) You understand more about people. If you only have experience speaking with foreigners in English, you are missing part of their personalities: the part that comes when they feel comfortable speaking in their native language. This is like watching a ballet where everyone's got one hand tied behind his back. People are less likely to joke, less likely to laugh, less likely to use their favorite gestures, less likely to use fun idioms- you lose all that, and thus, the best part of most people- when you insist speaking English. This means your whole view of the people is a bit off, usually for the worse.

I think that learning a foreign language cannot be confused with living abroad, in and of itself. Learning Russian, Spanish, Chinese or French to speak with immigrants and tourists can also broaden one's scope as I mentioned above. Living abroad in a bubble is likewise hardly more than fancy year at boarding school.

Other skills (STEM) are likewise necessary. I once had to explain to a non-English-speaking Chinese comrade, in a French class in France in which nobody spoke Chinese, what "energetic" meant. This is not easy when both of you are only two weeks into French! Fortunately, in China, they also know e=mc2. Mathematics, the beautiful universal language...
ComingAnarchy.com » Blog Archive » Is fluency in a language required for regional expertise?
October 3, 2006
5:33 am
[...] In a followup to previous posts on learning language and living abroad, I’d like to open up the discussion regarding the question in the post title. In a discussion with a reader, he answered in the negative: [...]
ComingAnarchy.com » Blog Archive » Filtered or straight
November 2, 2007
1:20 pm
[...] have expounded on the benefits of living abroad and the importance of language and expertise, but does one really have to constantly experience the [...]