<?xml version="1.0" encoding="utf-8"?><rss version="2.0"
	xmlns:content="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/content/"
	xmlns:dc="http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/"
	xmlns:atom="http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom"
	xmlns:sy="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/syndication/"
		>
<channel>
	<title>Comments on: Profile in Ancient&#160;Courage</title>
	<atom:link href="http://cominganarchy.com/2006/03/24/profile-in-ancient-courage/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://cominganarchy.com/2006/03/24/profile-in-ancient-courage/</link>
	<description>Speak Victorian, Think Pagan</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Sat, 20 Mar 2010 03:10:03 -0700</lastBuildDate>
	<generator>http://wordpress.org/?v=2.8.6</generator>
	<sy:updatePeriod>hourly</sy:updatePeriod>
	<sy:updateFrequency>1</sy:updateFrequency>
		<item>
		<title>By: Thersander</title>
		<link>http://cominganarchy.com/2006/03/24/profile-in-ancient-courage/comment-page-1/#comment-77804</link>
		<dc:creator>Thersander</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 01 Apr 2006 05:24:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.cominganarchy.com/?p=1716#comment-77804</guid>
		<description>Although most historians claim that Caesar was in his early twenties when he exacted revenge on the pirates, he was not a senator.  Young Caesar was an aspiring politician who was travelling to Rhodes in order to study rhetoric.  He actually held no political power in Rome or the provinces.  Therefore, it is surprising that he convinced the Roman military authorities to carry out his threat of crucifixion.  Junius, the Roman Governor of Asia Minor, vetoed Caesar&#039;s petition to have the several hundred pirates executed.  It seems that Junius either wanted (1) to sell the pirates as slaves, and claim the profit for himself or (2) negotiate with the pirate leaders for their release, also resulting in profit for the governor.  But Caesar believed that his own reputation, and Roman justice, would best be served by not permitting the pirates to escape punishment and by not allowing a corrupt Roman governor to line his pockets.  Therefore, perhaps by lying to the Roman military authorities concerning his own authority, Caesar requested that the pirates should be crucified.  At any rate, the military officials at Pergamum, the Roman military headquarters, readily agreed to Caesar&#039;s request.  By the time the governor&#039;s spokesman arrived in Pergamum, and inquired after the pirates, he was directed to a long burial trench within the barracks complex.  Of course, the governor was furious that Caesar had literally liquidated his (Junius&#039;s) assets; but there was little that could be done at this point.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Although most historians claim that Caesar was in his early twenties when he exacted revenge on the pirates, he was not a senator.  Young Caesar was an aspiring politician who was travelling to Rhodes in order to study rhetoric.  He actually held no political power in Rome or the provinces.  Therefore, it is surprising that he convinced the Roman military authorities to carry out his threat of crucifixion.  Junius, the Roman Governor of Asia Minor, vetoed Caesar&#8217;s petition to have the several hundred pirates executed.  It seems that Junius either wanted (1) to sell the pirates as slaves, and claim the profit for himself or (2) negotiate with the pirate leaders for their release, also resulting in profit for the governor.  But Caesar believed that his own reputation, and Roman justice, would best be served by not permitting the pirates to escape punishment and by not allowing a corrupt Roman governor to line his pockets.  Therefore, perhaps by lying to the Roman military authorities concerning his own authority, Caesar requested that the pirates should be crucified.  At any rate, the military officials at Pergamum, the Roman military headquarters, readily agreed to Caesar&#8217;s request.  By the time the governor&#8217;s spokesman arrived in Pergamum, and inquired after the pirates, he was directed to a long burial trench within the barracks complex.  Of course, the governor was furious that Caesar had literally liquidated his (Junius&#8217;s) assets; but there was little that could be done at this point.</p>]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Stygius</title>
		<link>http://cominganarchy.com/2006/03/24/profile-in-ancient-courage/comment-page-1/#comment-76116</link>
		<dc:creator>Stygius</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 27 Mar 2006 15:08:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.cominganarchy.com/?p=1716#comment-76116</guid>
		<description>This is the most hilarious thread I&#039;ve ever read. Obviously, you have all overlooked &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.x-entertainment.com/messages/534.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Serpentor&lt;/a&gt;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is the most hilarious thread I&#8217;ve ever read. Obviously, you have all overlooked <a href="http://www.x-entertainment.com/messages/534.html">Serpentor</a>.</p>]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: monocrat</title>
		<link>http://cominganarchy.com/2006/03/24/profile-in-ancient-courage/comment-page-1/#comment-75960</link>
		<dc:creator>monocrat</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 26 Mar 2006 21:42:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.cominganarchy.com/?p=1716#comment-75960</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m with Curzon, Admiral re intertemporal value judgements. Besides, did MacArthur ever emerge victorious in a battle in which he  simultaneously was being besieged and laying seige? The Gallic War was impressive generalship.

Now, as for &quot;clemency,&quot; how about Augustus&#039; letting an imprisoned father and son decide which of them would live and die. (From Suetonious.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m with Curzon, Admiral re intertemporal value judgements. Besides, did MacArthur ever emerge victorious in a battle in which he  simultaneously was being besieged and laying seige? The Gallic War was impressive generalship.</p>

<p>Now, as for &#8220;clemency,&#8221; how about Augustus&#8217; letting an imprisoned father and son decide which of them would live and die. (From Suetonious.)</p>]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Curzon</title>
		<link>http://cominganarchy.com/2006/03/24/profile-in-ancient-courage/comment-page-1/#comment-75883</link>
		<dc:creator>Curzon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 26 Mar 2006 14:04:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.cominganarchy.com/?p=1716#comment-75883</guid>
		<description>Admiral: Julius Caesar a depraved record?  It was 50BC!  Stop judging the man with your 21st century values.  (You also lose big points for quoting an overrated scifi novel.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Admiral: Julius Caesar a depraved record?  It was 50BC!  Stop judging the man with your 21st century values.  (You also lose big points for quoting an overrated scifi novel.)</p>]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: lirelou</title>
		<link>http://cominganarchy.com/2006/03/24/profile-in-ancient-courage/comment-page-1/#comment-75882</link>
		<dc:creator>lirelou</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 26 Mar 2006 13:48:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.cominganarchy.com/?p=1716#comment-75882</guid>
		<description>Admiral, &quot;The most decorated American of WWI&quot;. Yes, as a General Officer and the Chief of Staff of the 42nd Infantry Division. Sorry, but generals who make sure they get written up for an award every time they go near the front do not count as heroes in my book. Most especially if they are the one&#039;s responsible for passing upon whom in their divisions will be recommended for awards. And I have said nothing that would indicate I&#039;m a Caesar apologist. Both men had a knack for casting themselves in heroic prose. Did Dougie Mac have some modicum of talent? Certainly. Could he be a dynamic commander when circumstance required. Yes. Does he deserve his place in American military history? Of course. But that does not, per se, render him an &quot;unparalleled genius&quot;. If you wish to see MacArthur-like greatness, and an equally large ego, without the flaws, try reading up on Jean de Lattre de Tassigny.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Admiral, &#8220;The most decorated American of <span class="caps">WWI</span>&#8220;. Yes, as a General Officer and the Chief of Staff of the 42nd Infantry Division. Sorry, but generals who make sure they get written up for an award every time they go near the front do not count as heroes in my book. Most especially if they are the one&#8217;s responsible for passing upon whom in their divisions will be recommended for awards. And I have said nothing that would indicate I&#8217;m a Caesar apologist. Both men had a knack for casting themselves in heroic prose. Did Dougie Mac have some modicum of talent? Certainly. Could he be a dynamic commander when circumstance required. Yes. Does he deserve his place in American military history? Of course. But that does not, per se, render him an &#8220;unparalleled genius&#8221;. If you wish to see MacArthur-like greatness, and an equally large ego, without the flaws, try reading up on Jean de Lattre de Tassigny.</p>]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Admiral</title>
		<link>http://cominganarchy.com/2006/03/24/profile-in-ancient-courage/comment-page-1/#comment-75853</link>
		<dc:creator>Admiral</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 26 Mar 2006 07:47:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.cominganarchy.com/?p=1716#comment-75853</guid>
		<description>LOL, I trust that if you wanted, you could distort far better supposed examples of MacArthur&#039;s inadequacy. 

For indeed, it would be the American Caesar of unparalleled military genius who preserved South Korea against all odds, warned us of Truman&#039;s actions that would, indeed, preserve NORTH Korea (and China)... the American Caesar who was the most decorated American of World War I, who devised the most complex, elegant, and brilliant campaign of World War II-- anywhere on the map, using not just troops (strike Patton from the top), but also air and naval power. It was a concert for the ages, planned by him-- with some notable help from the likes of George C. Kenney.

To respond to your points: Truman had just as much Intel as MacArthur had, and no one in Washington was very worried about it either. His Intel chief, General Willoughby, had extensive intelligence indicating China would enter, but if you read history on the subject, you would know that Willoughby disregarded it and failed to mention the material to his superior. If MacArthur can be thought to have a fault here is that he kept incompetents like Willoughby too close to him for too long. 

And MacArthur was absolutely right, as Geoffrey Perret revealed in his recent biography, about USSR intervention had we actually not settled for surrender as Truman decided (if you ask me-- and I guess you haven&#039;t :) ). 

And yes, it is certainly possible that the Veracruz incident was fabricated out of cloth. But most respectable historians discount that since they look at the whole picture and understand his unmatched bravery, his lack of regard for his own life. What they understand, however, is that he is as unmatched in florid imaginings as he is in strategic genius-- so it&#039;s far more likely that at least some of it was exaggerated. ( And by the way-- since we&#039;re on the topic-- you don&#039;t actually think that Julius Caesar story happened exactly as told do you? Give me a break. :) )

Oh yes, MacArthur is an easy target, but as his enemies found out, not so easy to kill. In the end, the only one who could bring him down was himself. 

To be sure, Julius Caesar has a FAR more *depraved* record, and perhaps one that will echo further down history. But that remains to be seen, and you will bear witness to that as China rises in power. For my money, I will take Augustus as ten times the Emperor he was, and with one hundred times the historical. Julius, in the end, is not very impressive, no matter the fawning glow cast upon him by classicists and wannabe classicists. Hell, I&#039;ll take Justinian over Julius. 

I leave you with a quote from one of the better Ender&#039;s Shadow books, Shadow of the Hegemon by Orson Scott Card:

&quot;...let me say that I have no doubt of your capacity to achieve your ambition. I can only hope that, in the event of success, you will choose to emulate Washington, MacArthur, or Augustus rather than Napoleon, Alexander, or Hitler.&quot;

You might as well toss Julius Caesar into that latter list. Had you put MacArthur in Caesar&#039;s shoes, you would have had true military genius AND competent administration. What a combination. 

[Full disclosure: I&#039;m a sick, sick MacArthur apologist.]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><span class="caps">LOL,</span> I trust that if you wanted, you could distort far better supposed examples of MacArthur&#8217;s inadequacy. </p>

<p>For indeed, it would be the American Caesar of unparalleled military genius who preserved South Korea against all odds, warned us of Truman&#8217;s actions that would, indeed, preserve <span class="caps">NORTH</span> Korea (and China)&#8230; the American Caesar who was the most decorated American of World War I, who devised the most complex, elegant, and brilliant campaign of World War II&#8211; anywhere on the map, using not just troops (strike Patton from the top), but also air and naval power. It was a concert for the ages, planned by him&#8211; with some notable help from the likes of George C. Kenney.</p>

<p>To respond to your points: Truman had just as much Intel as MacArthur had, and no one in Washington was very worried about it either. His Intel chief, General Willoughby, had extensive intelligence indicating China would enter, but if you read history on the subject, you would know that Willoughby disregarded it and failed to mention the material to his superior. If MacArthur can be thought to have a fault here is that he kept incompetents like Willoughby too close to him for too long. </p>

<p>And MacArthur was absolutely right, as Geoffrey Perret revealed in his recent biography, about <span class="caps">USSR </span>intervention had we actually not settled for surrender as Truman decided (if you ask me&#8211; and I guess you haven&#8217;t :) ). </p>

<p>And yes, it is certainly possible that the Veracruz incident was fabricated out of cloth. But most respectable historians discount that since they look at the whole picture and understand his unmatched bravery, his lack of regard for his own life. What they understand, however, is that he is as unmatched in florid imaginings as he is in strategic genius&#8211; so it&#8217;s far more likely that at least some of it was exaggerated. ( And by the way&#8211; since we&#8217;re on the topic&#8211; you don&#8217;t actually think that Julius Caesar story happened exactly as told do you? Give me a break. :) )</p>

<p>Oh yes, MacArthur is an easy target, but as his enemies found out, not so easy to kill. In the end, the only one who could bring him down was himself. </p>

<p>To be sure, Julius Caesar has a <span class="caps">FAR </span>more <strong>depraved</strong> record, and perhaps one that will echo further down history. But that remains to be seen, and you will bear witness to that as China rises in power. For my money, I will take Augustus as ten times the Emperor he was, and with one hundred times the historical. Julius, in the end, is not very impressive, no matter the fawning glow cast upon him by classicists and wannabe classicists. Hell, I&#8217;ll take Justinian over Julius. </p>

<p>I leave you with a quote from one of the better Ender&#8217;s Shadow books, Shadow of the Hegemon by Orson Scott Card:</p>

<p>&#8220;&#8230;let me say that I have no doubt of your capacity to achieve your ambition. I can only hope that, in the event of success, you will choose to emulate Washington, MacArthur, or Augustus rather than Napoleon, Alexander, or Hitler.&#8221;</p>

<p>You might as well toss Julius Caesar into that latter list. Had you put MacArthur in Caesar&#8217;s shoes, you would have had true military genius <span class="caps">AND </span>competent administration. What a combination. </p>

<p>[Full disclosure: I'm a sick, sick MacArthur apologist.]</p>]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: lirelou</title>
		<link>http://cominganarchy.com/2006/03/24/profile-in-ancient-courage/comment-page-1/#comment-75644</link>
		<dc:creator>lirelou</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 25 Mar 2006 10:55:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.cominganarchy.com/?p=1716#comment-75644</guid>
		<description>Admiral,  Would that be the same American Caesar who said: Look, the Chinese are too weak to oppose us in Korea. Trust me, I&#039;m the expert? That same caesar who wrote himself up for a medal of honor for actions in 1914 Veracruz that took place after hostilities had ended and for which there was no other witness than our American Caesar himself? I believe that you&#039;ll find that Uncle Julius has the better record.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Admiral,  Would that be the same American Caesar who said: Look, the Chinese are too weak to oppose us in Korea. Trust me, I&#8217;m the expert? That same caesar who wrote himself up for a medal of honor for actions in 1914 Veracruz that took place after hostilities had ended and for which there was no other witness than our American Caesar himself? I believe that you&#8217;ll find that Uncle Julius has the better record.</p>]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Admiral</title>
		<link>http://cominganarchy.com/2006/03/24/profile-in-ancient-courage/comment-page-1/#comment-75507</link>
		<dc:creator>Admiral</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 24 Mar 2006 18:25:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.cominganarchy.com/?p=1716#comment-75507</guid>
		<description>Wow. I have a whole new respect for the guy. He was not as good as our &#039;American Caesar&#039; -- at anything, I fear -- but still.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Wow. I have a whole new respect for the guy. He was not as good as our &#8216;American Caesar&#8217; &#8212; at anything, I fear &#8212; but still.</p>]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Gollios</title>
		<link>http://cominganarchy.com/2006/03/24/profile-in-ancient-courage/comment-page-1/#comment-75495</link>
		<dc:creator>Gollios</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 24 Mar 2006 14:29:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.cominganarchy.com/?p=1716#comment-75495</guid>
		<description>Looking at the news regarding the Christian &#039;Peace Activisits&#039; recently rescued in Iraq by UK &amp; US forces, it appears that they&#039;d much rather crucify their rescuers than their kidnappers.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Looking at the news regarding the Christian &#8216;Peace Activisits&#8217; recently rescued in Iraq by UK &amp; US forces, it appears that they&#8217;d much rather crucify their rescuers than their kidnappers.</p>]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Curzon</title>
		<link>http://cominganarchy.com/2006/03/24/profile-in-ancient-courage/comment-page-1/#comment-75401</link>
		<dc:creator>Curzon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 24 Mar 2006 05:49:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.cominganarchy.com/?p=1716#comment-75401</guid>
		<description>How humane for the Roman era -- he did crucify them, but only after strangling them first.  What a guy.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>How humane for the Roman era &#8212; he did crucify them, but only after strangling them first.  What a guy.</p>]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Curtis Gale Weeks</title>
		<link>http://cominganarchy.com/2006/03/24/profile-in-ancient-courage/comment-page-1/#comment-75399</link>
		<dc:creator>Curtis Gale Weeks</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 24 Mar 2006 05:31:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.cominganarchy.com/?p=1716#comment-75399</guid>
		<description>Montaigne, in his essay _On Cruelty_, quotes someone testifying to Caesar&#039;s clemency:

&quot;He was mild in his revenges.  Having forced the pirates to surrender to him, whom they had formerly taken prisoner and put to ransom, since he had threatened to crucify them he condemned them to that punishment, but only after having them strangled.&quot;

Unfortunately, I don&#039;t know who he&#039;s quoting!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Montaigne, in his essay <em>On Cruelty</em>, quotes someone testifying to Caesar&#8217;s clemency:</p>

<p>&#8220;He was mild in his revenges.  Having forced the pirates to surrender to him, whom they had formerly taken prisoner and put to ransom, since he had threatened to crucify them he condemned them to that punishment, but only after having them strangled.&#8221;</p>

<p>Unfortunately, I don&#8217;t know who he&#8217;s quoting!</p>]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: snow</title>
		<link>http://cominganarchy.com/2006/03/24/profile-in-ancient-courage/comment-page-1/#comment-75396</link>
		<dc:creator>snow</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 24 Mar 2006 05:03:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.cominganarchy.com/?p=1716#comment-75396</guid>
		<description>That&#039;s a great story. Too bad modern day hostages, especially those in Iraq, couldn&#039;t do the same and exact swift retribution on their captors.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That&#8217;s a great story. Too bad modern day hostages, especially those in Iraq, couldn&#8217;t do the same and exact swift retribution on their captors.</p>]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
</channel>
</rss>
