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Younghusband
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Younghusband

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March 13th, 2006

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Wafa Sultan

Here is the Wafa Sultan interview that has been raising hackles all over blogistan.

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UPDATE: Read about her in the New York Times. ( via LGF)

Comments to this entry

darin
March 13, 2006
5:21 am
Wow. I personally like the echo her voice had to it; it was like the prophet Mohammed came down to earth to speak through her.
snow
March 13, 2006
7:45 am
She is great. Just what Islam needs is more people from the Muslim world speaking out against the reactionary fascists of backwards medieval age thinking and acting. Hopefully we've started Islam on a path to modernity after having been derailed so long ago and that moderate Muslims can someday take the lead over the religion. We know they are there. They are just intimidated into silence, but hopefully this will change.
Chirol
March 13, 2006
8:21 am
Glad to see you did watch the video YH. Miss Sultan lays down some serious secular fire and brimstone. The most important part of this isn't even someone from the Muslim world saying this but somebody saying it _in Arabic_ on Al Jazeera so Arabs actually see it.
J.Kende
March 13, 2006
10:14 am
What can be done to support this being spread on radio and satellite throughout the Arabic speaking world? Unedited of course.
jone
March 13, 2006
8:11 pm
how could she say somthing like that about islam!!!

islam is the religion of mercy, kindness, and hummenity

all what she said wasn't true.

islam came with peace, and prophet mohammed orederd moslims not to kill a child or a woman or old person, even man who doesn't have wipon. also he prevent destroying any holy place!!

thats what i know about islam, i think she is a big lier.
ComingAnarchy.com » Blog Archive » 1001 Inventions
March 14, 2006
1:47 am
[...] With people questioning Islamic attitudes on modern science i thought I would give equal time to a site dedicated to Islam’s legacy of contributions to modern civilization: 1001 Inventions [...]
Elizabeth
March 14, 2006
6:22 am
Thanks for the link. I was disappointed to find out she was a secular Muslim, though, as I don't think that her message will have much pull with the Muslims I'd like to send it to. They would think, "If that sort of thinking leads to athiesm, I won't listen to it." When you live in a country where people in the neighbourhood die everyday from disease and violence, you end up being too God-fearing to risk your chances for a little intellectual integrity.
Chirol
March 14, 2006
8:30 am
Elizabeth. All too true. As I also found out in the Islamic World. When people ask you what you are, better to lie and say Christian (as I often did) because as soon as you say atheist, the conversation is over.
J.Kende
March 14, 2006
2:45 pm
And if you told them you were a Buddhist instead?
Mutantfrog
March 17, 2006
2:47 am
I told plenty of people in Xinjiang and Kazakhstan that I was Jewish, and not a single one of them even cared. I felt a little ripped off, in a way.
J.Kende
March 17, 2006
9:02 pm
Yeah, but try that in the UAE.
Mutantfrog
March 18, 2006
5:41 am
Where in the UAE? I can't imagine the average Dubai-er would really give that much of a shit.
J.Kende
March 18, 2006
7:49 am
The average Dubai resident probably wouldn't care much, but the united emirates policy is pretty anti-Jewish, no?
Christie Mayo
March 22, 2006
12:24 am
to Darian,

Speaking through Mohammed's voice !!!
She said that Islam cannot be fixed, that it is fatally flawed.
Christie Mayo
March 22, 2006
12:35 am
Yoy left out the !!!!
Wafa Sultan said, "Only the Muslims defend their beliefs by burning down churches, killing people and destroying embassies."Â?

Predudice needs to be identified and censured wherever and whenever it appears.

The Qur'an repeatedly emphasizes the unity of mankind and yet recognizes the diversity within humanity. Dialogue that is respectful, thoughtful and tolerent of different religions and cultures is a goal worth striving for.
Mohamad
March 22, 2006
2:26 am
I'm a secular Muslim who wants reform however, she's either mis-informed or ignorant. When we'll people recognize that both extremes are off base? When she sparred with the Algerian cleric she claimed the United States wasn't responsible for the genocide of Native Americans. Really? So the countless evidence including paintings of U.S. soldiers attacking Indian camps with guns killing all including women and children, was just bullshit? Give me a break, she's clearly uneducated and I wouldn't be surprised if she did all this for the notoriety and fame.
Mi-Hwa
March 22, 2006
12:33 pm
The term 'secular Muslim' seems like an oxymoron. A Muslim is someone who follows Islam, so a person can't be secular and a real Muslim at the same time. Likewise, a 'secular Christian' would be an oxymoron. However, it's possible to be a 'secular Jew', because being a Jew can refer to both a religion or a certain race of people. Muslims are not a single race; they are strictly a religious group.
Oren
March 23, 2006
8:41 am
I am Jewish and I am glad that there are still people that say what they want to say like Wafa Sultan without a fear and I am sure that there are more Muslim people that think like her. It is important that people wont be afraid to say what they think about the way of there religion.
At the end we are all believe at the same god.
And just as we don't want that our son's will kill one another I am sure that that was not the purpose of god bringing us down here and the Muslim people needs to understand that; specially the people who planning blowing themselves and believe that God will give them 82 virgins in heaven.
STOP BEING A ROBOT AND START THIK BY YOURSEF!!! This is what we do.
Thinking,asking,checking,thinking Again,asking again and checking again.
This is how the Jewish mind works and this is how should people work before they go and kill other people.
Reason
March 23, 2006
11:23 am
Dr. Wafa (Hah I doubt even that).

Anyone with a 3rd grade history lesson would have told you she was completely wrong. Proto-Zionist's in Palestine and Europe have blown up anyone or anything that challenged the establishment of a Zionist safe haven. The Bask have had a long war with Spain (which is still alive and well), the Tamil tigers have had more suicide bombings than all other nations combined including the ones in occupied Palestine. The illegal occupation of Iraq and Vietnam by the United Hates of America are nothing compared to the massacres of Pawnee, Lakota, and 300 other Native American nations and cultures over a time span of 400 years. Oh and by the way I'll stay away from the enslavement, rape, and killing of over one hundred million Africans just so you don't say I am playing the race card. And let us not forget the most recent tragedy of all the war casualties of WWI and WWII. You racist ethnocentric xenophobes make me sick. Anyone who wants to preserve their way of life or practice their beliefs or culture is not a threat to you it is you who are a threat to them. The Anglo-Yiddish a.k.a. Ashkenazi and Anglo-Saxon war machines are well know for their long running campaigns and treaty breakings.
Curzon
March 23, 2006
2:55 pm
The Bask have had a long war with Spain (which is still alive and well)


That would be Basque. And if you've been watching the news...

"Basque ETA Announces Permanent Cease-Fire":http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/03/23/AR2006032300600.html
Nima
March 25, 2006
12:57 am
The lady has some good points, when she citicizes the typical muslim lamenting and whining, which is well seen when "we" muslims (I am one myself) take any help from the west when there is a catastrophy but attack western civilians or even NGOs.
The comparison with the achievements of the Jews is also partially good and eye-opening.
When it comes to terrorism however she is totally wrong in sugarcoating jewish history. Israeli authors Avi Shlaim, Tom Segev, Ilan Pape or Benny Morris have written comprehensive and well-researched books about Israels history and the major role terrorism had in it.
Long before Palestinians hijacked planes or bombed Cafes, jewish organizations Irgun or the Stern gang blew up hotels or killed european diplomats.
And compared to the Torah and the Talmud the Qurans violence is minimal. The Israelis display the David star in their flag and let themselves be celebrated as intellectual technocrats or secularists while David killed 100000 people according to their own books. Just an example.
Ms. Sultan is very one-sided in her view of history. She blames the clash of civilisations on the Qurans distinguishing of believers, "People of the Book", etc. as though the "Book" (the Torah) was any tolerant or peaceful.
The Quran at least acknowledges the equality of all Prophets and sees them in one line teaching the one and only eternal religion of the same God.
If Ms. Sultan wants to compare religions, then she should not compare secular jewish scientists with radical islamic militants. Rather she should compare the radicals, which are part of both people.
Her denial of the role of Islam in the formation, development or renaissance of many sciences during Islams "golden age" is laughable, when she not precisely attacks islamic fundamentalists but all Muslims when she calls them backward.
No question, the behaviour of many Muslims and the happenings in many muslim countries are a shame but does she really think the common muslims are happy with their governments or with their Islamists? Is it not obvious that by far the most victims of Islamists have been Muslims themselves?
Are victims and perpetrators equal because both are muslims?

Portraying the entire western world "civilized" and people of science and thereby including mass-murdering liars and warmongers like Bush, Rumsfled and Cheney into the group of the "good" (because non-muslim westerners) while at the same time labeling all Muslims medi-evalists is dishonest and unfair.

All together she has some good points but the way she presents it is merely provocative and insulting and not fruitful, because it warms the heart of racists and muslim-haters in the west while it fails to make muslims reflect.
MIke
March 25, 2006
7:30 am
This woman is a God. I can almost kiss her. I was shocked when the camel fuckers finnaly got some truth delivered to them in a language they can understand. They way she spoke and held herself against the so called Dr. of Isamafacism was inspiring. When she said that all of Arab education was religious, she hit the nail right on the head. Muslims need to snap out of the slumber the friday prairs put them into and stop worshiping law and culture of the middle ages that are long gone in the rest of the world. Get to work, do something. Stop just sitting on oil and enslaving non-muslims to be your servants. If there was no American and European engineering, they would still be riding camels around the deserts and fucking them. Honestly, Arab women are so ugly with their disguisting crooked noses that I would almost rather fuck a goat.
Wake up non-muslims, ignore everything muslims say because they are liars even if they try to sound European, their minds are perfectly receptive to having two realities, one they know and one they say. It is really unbelievable. Ignore anything a muslim says on this site because they are like brainwashed dogs, barking the same thing over and over again just like the Koran they had to rid.
Tell muslims the truth in their face and you will see how a they will slither like a bug under a stick. It is possible, although highly unlikely, they might snap out of their cult and see the world the way it really is.
Christie Mayo
March 25, 2006
5:48 pm
"I don't believe you can reform Islam," Dr. Wafa Sultan said. "Islamic scriptures are riddled with violence, misogyny and other extremist ideas.Once you try to fix it, you're going to break it."

Dr. Wafa Sultan, a US citizen and former Muslim, is called a hero and widely quoted in the media for making this sweeping condemnation of the religion of Islam. Several million Americans are Muslims. Most Americans do not know this. They do not know much, if anything, about the religion of Islam. Their opinions of Muslims are formed by the horrible criminal acts committed on 9/11 and subsequent TV news. They do not personally know any Muslims. But many hate "them"�, fear "them"� or both. (surveys say 52 %)  And so they embrace and praise Wafa Sultan's statements.
                                                                                                               
When the mainstream media hail someone as a hero and that person,herself, says that she is the self-appointed savior of people who wrongly believe in a major world religion, that person should expect fair and rational but close scrutiny. So consider this story below.(excerpt from The Times online/ UK/March 19, 2006)

"Sultan, who worked as a family practitioner in Syria after qualifying as a doctor, also speaks about the virulent anti-semitism that was inculcated in her and all Syrian children. This made her so terrified of Jews that she refused to act the part of the Israeli prime minister Golda Meir in a school play.
"ËœUntil I came to United States I used to believe that Jewish people are not human creatures' she says. "ËœUnfortunately this is the way I was brought up, to believe that Jews don't have our human features, they don't have our human voices'.

In the first week she was in the United States she and her husband went to a shoe shop in Hollywood. Her husband asked the clerk where he was from and when he said that he was an Israeli Jew, "˜you can't believe what I did' she says. "˜I ran away without shoes, barefoot. My husband followed me. He said, "˜How stupid you are.' But I said, "˜I cannot tolerate him.' I was scared to death because he was from Israel; I reacted in a very bad, negative way, because of the way I had been raised, for the past 30 years of my life."�  (She is now 47.)

You have to be taught, very carefully taught, to hate a whole group of people.
Part of that is to learn to make sweeping generalizations. Apparently, judging by the above examples, Wafa Sultan was so taught.Then recently, Wafa Sultan was on TV praising the Jewish people as nonviolent. Unfortunately, it appears that she just transferred her prejudice to a different group of people."Only the Muslims defend their beliefs by burning down churches, killing people and destroying embassies."Â? Prejudice needs to be identified and censured wherever
it appears.
Further, this comment of Nima's id worth repeating, "All together she has some good points but the way she presents it is merely provocative and insulting and not fruitful, because it warms the heart of racists and muslim-haters in the west while it fails to make muslims reflect."
nora
March 25, 2006
7:55 pm
salam alikom ( peace be upon all of you )

i'am a muslim woman,and i am proud to be muslim.

i would like to go thruogh this discussion,

there is a lot of wrong facts talks about islam here:

1. there is no "secular Muslim", there is a secular but not a muslim person, so what ever is said about islam from those people is just false and doesn't represent islam at all.

2. please people, don't judge islam from the first sight, or from people talks.

it's you responsibility to go and read about islam, talk with the truly muslim people, take with the american muslim hammzah yousef hanson , not with a "secular Muslim", they will let you show you the truth of islam.

islam is peace and love for all people


please, please.

discover islam

visit this link

www.fadelsoliman.com
Christie Mayo
March 25, 2006
8:26 pm
Nima's comment is well worth repeating and considering. She says of Wafa, "All together she has some good points but the way she presents it is merely provocative and insulting and not fruitful, because it warms the heart of racists and Muslim-haters in the west while it fails to make Muslims reflect."Â?

Any person's attempt to be respectful and kind in response to another person's remarks, no matter how inflammatory those person's remarks are, is to be commended. So I have written an analysis below of Nina'a statement with great respect for her. However, I suggest that stronger statements of protest are needed.

"{Wafa} has some good points"Â?: Are there Muslim extremists in the world and are they violent. Without doubt. Do they use quotations from the Qur'an to justify their actions? Yes. They twist these quotations for their own purposes. But yes, they do use them. No argument there. Do they represent the beliefs of the seven million Muslim-American in the U.S ? Only a person who is blinded by prejudice can believe that.

"The way she (Wafa) presents them is provocative and insulting."Â?
That is a great understatement by Nima, probably in order to be reasonable
and kind, and that is certainly commendable.

Wafa's statements are a flagrant distortion of the truth. Can we maintain a society that is just and humane if we do not vigorous speaks out against any pronouncement that " warms the heart of racists and Muslim-haters in the West."Â? If Wafa made such claims, starting out: "Niggers are..."Â? or "Jews are..."Â?, she would rightly be widely condemned. Why is she widely proclaimed as a hero? Is this the new prejudice in this country , "Muslims are ..."Â? ?


"Fails to make Muslims reflect..."Â? Any person who tells another that her or his religion is beyond repair, that it is fatally flawed, certainly should not be surprised that "it fails to make that person reflect"Â?

I wonder what Dr. Wafa Sultan's motivation is ? If acclaim and fame are what she sought, she has been highly successful. I suggest she should do some soul-searching about the way she has achieved it. When people reflect on her statements, her fame may turn to notoriety.
larrysn2
March 27, 2006
9:10 pm
Reason -- you indoctrinated fool, pitiful
Amir
April 5, 2006
3:56 pm
As a muslim i believe this lady here is talking pure nonsense. Her arguments are filled with rhetorics as well as misleading provocation that is further fueled with streotypes. Regardsless of the points made, it is hard for me to see whether her knowledge of the Abrahamaic religion is up to par with the truth. They will always be extremes on any sides, but she failed to realise the medium tendency of Islamic teachings that has been under utilize. I am impressed with her courage and it should be made more often, but as with any talks she started to steer of the topic and continue with the popular trend of using rhetorics which is untrue. She is giving what people want to hear, and that is not professional. That kind of talk is not productive but further examplify the clash of civilisation. YES! She is an example of that. It is amazing how the modernity of the 21st century always go out of sync, fashion, politics, whatever else she claims 21st century western people achieve. But religion has stood the test of time for centuries. Not only the Abrahamaic religions but all sort of religions. She need to realise that modernity explained by logic will always be proven illogical in the future. Secularism does not satisfy man's security, it is amazing how the number of people duagnosed with clinical depression coincide with those who do not have a system of faith. There is a reason the word faith exist, to believe in something intangible, illogical. But then again, as with anything illogical it will turn out to be logical. It just depends on how you see it. Don't believe me? The prophet Muhammad (PBUH) mentioned that the higher one goes, the harder it is for one to breath. That made absolutely no sense at all during his time, but now that is the accepted truth. He also said that people will know the state of their house while one is out, i think now we can now what is going on via web cams etc. For me all this label of religion being backwards is just premature and wrong. It takes time for logic to be presented what is needed is a little bit of faith.

---

btw for you non-muslims i have no problem talking with you regardless of race, religion bla bla bla bla bla. If anyone wish to have a dialogue mail me at ampraxius@gmail.com
Christie Mayo
April 5, 2006
5:28 pm
The below is a satire of Wafa Sultan, taken from a site, Aquol, and somewhat altered. The author of the article seemed to welcome additions and promotion of her statements. I believe satire can cut to the truth in a very effective way. I reprint below my admittedly altered version of the original (ithe original also referred to a well known Muslim refusnik). I wish this type of response could gain mainstream media attention. What do you think? (This site seems to have the most respectful and thoughtful responses to Wafa Sultan that i have been able to find. So I trust that whatever your opinion, I will welcome it as worth considering.)

Muslim-American Reformer:Hot How-To Tips (my title)

1. Keep it simple
First and foremost, don't bother actually studying the religion or recent MENA history. No need to be aware of moderate Muslim-American voices. Memorize snippets from the Qur'an. You can "prove" anything by quoting out of context. (Note Wafa Sultan's success)

2. Have an angle
Find or manufacture a useful "turning point" in your life that made you realize Islam was a bigoted and/or violent religion .For Wafa Sultan, it was watching the Muslim Brotherhood kill a professor at her university in Aleppo. Confuse culture (in this case, Syrian) with religion.

Ahem, moving on...
3. Write a book
Start holding interviews just prior to (or immediately after) publishing a book that claims to spearhead a reform movement and/or turn the Islamic world on its head. Note Wafa Sultan' s aproach: Tell the NYT that the working title is The Escaped Prisoner: When God Is a Monster, because The Trouble with Islam Today is simply too namby-pamby.

4. Become a Western media darling
Be extremely provocative. Make rude statements about Islam and those who follow it. Make sure to have an itemized list of every horrible act commited by Muslims, rulers of Muslim-majority countries, Caliphs, etc. Make fun of Arabs and how childish and barbaric they are compared to Jews and Christians (Don't bother to mention any similar acts carried out in the name of other Abrahamic religions or even atheist ideologies, such as Communism. This is supposed to be an indictment against Islam, not the vile predictability of human nature and perverse incentives.

5. Remind people that you are constantly under siege
Make sure the media is fully aware of every single death threat you receive as a result of the aforementioned provocative statements. If you're lucky, some wacko will release a fatwa that demands you be stoned, beheaded or strung up in some elaborate medieval way.

6. Rake in the cash
Watch as speaking invitations roll in from hardline right-wing Israeli and US organizations. No, it's not a Jewish conspiracy, but for some odd reason they are in full agreement with your views on Islamic reform.(Islam is "fatally flawed") You're definitely on the way to winning Muslim hearts and minds if they're supporting you!

7. Remember your audience
Don't bother engaging Muslims in a respectful yet frank discussion on how to remain faithful to the Prophet's message in our modern, globalized, polarized, terrorized world. You don't even need to talk to Muslims, unless it's to get the extremists frothing at the mouth. Being a true visionary is hard work and requires far too much study, which leaves you hardly any time for gala dinners with pretentious, xenophobic ultra-liberal or ultra-conservative (really, does it matter?) activists who will praise you as a model Muslim making a real difference in the Islamic world.

somewhat altered from article in Aquol
tlfmd
April 8, 2006
6:09 pm
Powerful, she is calling for an awakening.
If Islam is so peaceful and tolerant of others, how can the few fools that taint the world's opinion be so tolerated. Where is the condemnation from within Islam? If peace is desired let us work peacefully, not blowing up each other. European Christianity is and has been coming to grips with its own errors of the past. In this day of mass communication, even the Pope (JP-II) has been seen asking for historical forgiveness. Where is Islam's apology?
Christie
April 9, 2006
12:25 am
Muslim-Americans' statements very strongly condemning terrorism do not readily reach the mainstream press. Search the Website CAIR (Council on Muslim American Relations) to see two of these statements plus much more.
AML
April 13, 2006
2:59 pm
Hey "Jone", learn to spell, youre as ignorant as the rest of them.

Look, yeah, this lady speaks the truth, no doubt ,but, will it get through to those boneheads over there? Probably not, its kinda like wasted breath on her part, unfortunately. Bottome line, Muslims, Christians, etc. need to stop pushing their Religion on other people. stop chastizing them for their faith and believing in their choice of religions, stop pushing. You guys are gonna piss off all those Virgins up there! Youre coming at too fast of a rate for them to keep up:) Hehe What a joke.
Melman
April 20, 2006
12:42 am
Bin Muhammad said:
I am not saying that killing innocent people is nice. I say that all innocent people should be protected. But at the same time, we must start with the innocent among the Muslims. There are millions of innocent people among us, while the innocent among you "“ and innocent they are "“ number only dozens, hundreds, or thousands, at the most...

Why didn't any one of our Muslim brothers make a comment on the other debater (for the lack of a better term). Why do our Muslim brothers always point the finger else where when we all know that there is a problem. If you put your head in the sand and not pay attention to what is happing now! I fear all will be lost...

Dr. Bin Muhammad said :
Bin Muhammad: The guest from America asked how a young man could blow up a bus. If only she had asked how a president could blow up a peaceful nation in Iraq. How does a president help the arch-killer of occupied Palestine? Why doesn't she ask from where Hitler was brought up "“ Hitler, who murdered 50 million innocent people. Why doesn't she ask where the people who dropped two atom bombs on Japan were educated? Who killed three million innocent Vietnamese? Who annihilated the Indians? Who maintained imperialism to this day? Who waged the Spanish civil war, which exacted a toll of 600,000 in 36 months? Why don't we ask these questions? Who has over 15,000 nuclear warheads "“ Muslims or the non-Muslims? The Muslims or the Americans? The Muslims or the Europeans? We want an answer. Where was Bush educated "“ if education is really what makes a person a criminal?...


come to the furture and get your head out of the past... It is not helping holding on to things that make no difference now...

Peace to you and yours.