Comments on: Discussion: Exxon Sued for Allowing Indonesia Troops to Torture http://cominganarchy.com/2006/03/09/discussion-exxon-sued-for-indonesian-troop-torture/ Speak Victorian, Think Pagan Thu, 20 Nov 2008 15:13:23 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.3.2 By: ComingAnarchy.com » Blog Archive » Discussion, Part 2: http://cominganarchy.com/2006/03/09/discussion-exxon-sued-for-indonesian-troop-torture/#comment-75803 ComingAnarchy.com » Blog Archive » Discussion, Part 2: Sun, 26 Mar 2006 04:29:48 +0000 http://cominganarchy.com/2006/03/09/discussion-exxon-sued-for-indonesian-troop-torture/#comment-75803 [...] In a follow-up to a post from a few weeks ago (Exxon Sued for Allowing Indonesia Troops to Torture), look at this latest from Central Africa. [...] [...] In a follow-up to a post from a few weeks ago (Exxon Sued for Allowing Indonesia Troops to Torture), look at this latest from Central Africa. [...]

]]> By: mark safranski http://cominganarchy.com/2006/03/09/discussion-exxon-sued-for-indonesian-troop-torture/#comment-73023 mark safranski Fri, 10 Mar 2006 03:01:44 +0000 http://cominganarchy.com/2006/03/09/discussion-exxon-sued-for-indonesian-troop-torture/#comment-73023 Exxon is not a sovereign power in Indonesia and Exxon's presence or lack thereof in Indonesia I wager has little to do with the human rights abuses of the Indonesian Army except perhaps, to constrain it somewhat ( a well-publicized massacre on company property might result in corporate HQ protests to the military high command). The fact is that Indonesia's military is not: a) Under the reliable control of the Indonesian government b) Well disciplined by its own officer corps, the latter being penetrated by militia gangs and vice versa. Think of the Indonesian Army as Asia's equivalent to El Salvador's but less organized. Operating in Indonesia means getting in bed with bad people. Now you can take a constructive approach of coordinating USG and private pressure for Jakarta to clean up its act or you can sue Exxon or you can bug out. Two of those three accomplishes nothing for poor Indonesians. One might help over the long term - maybe. Exxon is not a sovereign power in Indonesia and Exxon’s presence or lack thereof in Indonesia I wager has little to do with the human rights abuses of the Indonesian Army except perhaps, to constrain it somewhat ( a well-publicized massacre on company property might result in corporate HQ protests to the military high command).

The fact is that Indonesia’s military is not:

a) Under the reliable control of the Indonesian government

b) Well disciplined by its own officer corps, the latter being penetrated by militia gangs and vice versa. Think of the Indonesian Army as Asia’s equivalent to El Salvador’s but less organized.

Operating in Indonesia means getting in bed with bad people. Now you can take a constructive approach of coordinating USG and private pressure for Jakarta to clean up its act or you can sue Exxon or you can bug out.

Two of those three accomplishes nothing for poor Indonesians. One might help over the long term – maybe.

]]> By: R. Elgin http://cominganarchy.com/2006/03/09/discussion-exxon-sued-for-indonesian-troop-torture/#comment-72979 R. Elgin Fri, 10 Mar 2006 01:15:52 +0000 http://cominganarchy.com/2006/03/09/discussion-exxon-sued-for-indonesian-troop-torture/#comment-72979 I used to live in DC and from what I know of Oberdorfer, he is a good, decent judge who will rule upon the merits of the case. I have faith in his record. I still worry more about the blatant attempt of Exxon to make their case in the media before they even get to the courtroom, not to mention the lobbying of special interests in DC over just such an issue. AT&T tried to do the same as Exxon, claiming that breaking up their "natural" monopoly would harm the interests of America. Such did not work, however, nowadays there is a blatant, incestuous relationship between American Government and big business that is very unhealthy. It seems that the government of America is an instrument of business and not of the people. I guess that is the same as saying some people are more so endowed with unalienable rights than others . . . I used to live in DC and from what I know of Oberdorfer, he is a good, decent judge who will rule upon the merits of the case. I have faith in his record.

I still worry more about the blatant attempt of Exxon to make their case in the media before they even get to the courtroom, not to mention the lobbying of special interests in DC over just such an issue. AT&T tried to do the same as Exxon, claiming that breaking up their “natural” monopoly would harm the interests of America. Such did not work, however, nowadays there is a blatant, incestuous relationship between American Government and big business that is very unhealthy. It seems that the government of America is an instrument of business and not of the people. I guess that is the same as saying some people are more so endowed with unalienable rights than others . . .

]]> By: Mutantfrog http://cominganarchy.com/2006/03/09/discussion-exxon-sued-for-indonesian-troop-torture/#comment-72969 Mutantfrog Thu, 09 Mar 2006 17:57:57 +0000 http://cominganarchy.com/2006/03/09/discussion-exxon-sued-for-indonesian-troop-torture/#comment-72969 Hearing the case is unquestionably good- whether the verdict is good or not is all based on the facts of the case, and that's something none of us know. I believe that's the point of the trial... Hearing the case is unquestionably good- whether the verdict is good or not is all based on the facts of the case, and that’s something none of us know. I believe that’s the point of the trial…

]]> By: nykrindc http://cominganarchy.com/2006/03/09/discussion-exxon-sued-for-indonesian-troop-torture/#comment-72933 nykrindc Thu, 09 Mar 2006 16:29:20 +0000 http://cominganarchy.com/2006/03/09/discussion-exxon-sued-for-indonesian-troop-torture/#comment-72933 Isn't that the issue though. Exxon may have provided support and its facilities for use by the military to carry out its abuses. I think there was also a case involving Shell in Nigeria who was accused of similar things. Turns out Shell actually bought and paid for weapons destined for the Nigerian military which were then used agaisnt Niger Delta ethnic groups protesting Shell's actions in the region. Isn’t that the issue though. Exxon may have provided support and its facilities for use by the military to carry out its abuses. I think there was also a case involving Shell in Nigeria who was accused of similar things. Turns out Shell actually bought and paid for weapons destined for the Nigerian military which were then used agaisnt Niger Delta ethnic groups protesting Shell’s actions in the region.

]]> By: Mi-Hwa http://cominganarchy.com/2006/03/09/discussion-exxon-sued-for-indonesian-troop-torture/#comment-72914 Mi-Hwa Thu, 09 Mar 2006 11:27:02 +0000 http://cominganarchy.com/2006/03/09/discussion-exxon-sued-for-indonesian-troop-torture/#comment-72914 I'm glad the judge is going to hear the case, because it's important to investigate allegations of serious wrongdoing. However, Exxon should not be punished for the actions of the Indonesian military, since the military is under the command of the Indonesian government. Exxon probably could not have prevented the abuses, because it had no control of how the military operated, and the facility was state-run. If Exxon is punished, it would set a bad precedent for increasing the liability risk of companies operating abroad. I’m glad the judge is going to hear the case, because it’s important to investigate allegations of serious wrongdoing. However, Exxon should not be punished for the actions of the Indonesian military, since the military is under the command of the Indonesian government. Exxon probably could not have prevented the abuses, because it had no control of how the military operated, and the facility was state-run. If Exxon is punished, it would set a bad precedent for increasing the liability risk of companies operating abroad.

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