TAE: What draws you to the topics of war and ferment in which you’ve specialized?
...
KAPLAN: I also find that places on the brink of collapse are intellectually fascinating because they’re like a real-life experiment with Hobbes, Montesquieu, and Ibn Khaldun. You can’t really understand Hobbes unless you’ve been to Sierra Leone when it’s cracking up. Hobbes once said that “life in the state of nature is solitary, poor, nasty, brutish, and short.”Â? And he’s exactly right, because freedom is nothing without authority. That concept has no real meaning in the classroom unless you’ve seen a place with no authority””?where just walking down the street is absolutely terrifying. That’s why the most fundamental human right is personal security. That’s something that is very hard to communicate to people who’ve never been outside of an affluent, physically secure environment.
Go read the rest.
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COMMENTS / 12 COMMENTS
Security Watchtower added these pithy words on Dec 16 05 at 2:38 amThursday’s Middle East Memo, 12.15.2005
For those readers familiar with my Middle East Week in Review, this new feature, Middle East Memo, is meant to replace it. The reason for the change is that I wanted to stop attempting to act as a general news source and free up time to deal with my mo…
Chief Wiggum added these pithy words on 13 Dec 05 at 2:58 pmThis is really an excellent interview that is worth your while to read.
IJ added these pithy words on 13 Dec 05 at 4:02 pmResisting the serious pressure on the US administration for early withdrawal from Iraq to save lives and taxes, Robert Kaplan thinks the troops should remain indefinitely. It begs the question of how long the policy on the Middle East of a representative government can ignore public opinion.
snow added these pithy words on 14 Dec 05 at 8:19 amI’ve tried to find Kaplan’s books here in Korea (found Imperial Grunts, but didnt want to pay $40 for the hardcover version), so I haven’t really read anything he’s written. But this interview has me sold. Damn interesting perspective he has. I like it very much. Thank you.
Kirk H. Sowell added these pithy words on 15 Dec 05 at 7:20 amGood interview – I’ve read eight of his books, and so it is interesting to see his thinking evolve over time, as he has influenced my thinking, and mine evolves. A few points:
1) Iran: I agree on the initial point he makes about how he used to be optimistic about peaceful change there, and isn’t now. The regime is quite firmly entrenched; its the thoughtful and careful Islamists like Rafsanjani who want to kill Americans, destroy Israel and dominate the region against crazy insane people like Ahmadinejad who want to acheive the same goals.
I disagree with his point at the end about Iran determining the future of the Middle East. Over the past three decades they have been influential in pioneering the suicide bomber tactic and they have been an inspiration to Sunni Islamists who want to replicate their success, but their influence in the Arab world is mainly negative; they make Persian Gulf countries want to be close to the U.S. Even in Iraq, where their influence is the greatest, the new government there is very different from their own, perhaps even a threat in the long-term if it inspires democratic revolution. They are losing in Lebanon. And their cultural influence is marginal. Iran is really important in terms of support for terrorism and nuclear proliferation, but that is it.
2) Afghanistan & Iraq: I agree that we have acheived more in the former than we should have expected. In Iraq, we haven’t acheived as much as we expected, but we were over-optimistic. We shouldn’t have expected to have all this work out in a year or two.
To respond to IJ’s comment, we shouldn’t “ignore public opinion” in perservering in Iraq, but recognize that public opinion is the way it is because of (a) ignorance and (b) moral weakness. We need to work on those. We don’t need to stay in Iraq indefinitely, Kaplan only says we shouldn’t set a timetable, and I agree because then our opponents would start counting the days.
Kaplan is right that we have acheived more in Iraq than Haiti or Kosovo.
3) Asia: He doesn’t lose sight of China. The point about the need for military cooperation with Indonesia is interesting. I’m not sure what he means when he says “we need to develop a more realistic outlook on India.” I have great hopes for that burgeoning alliance, but I’m not sure how far that can go and perhaps he means we shouldn’t expect too much.
Younghusband added these pithy words on 15 Dec 05 at 9:34 amIran is really important in terms of support for terrorism and nuclear proliferation, but that is it.
Whoa! If “that is it” I wonder what you think determines the future of the Middle East? I think Iran has always had the potential to be the the big boy on the block, if they became free, but recent trends are making me pessimistic.
public opinion is the way it is because of (a) ignorance and (b) moral weakness.
and© a proper PR strategy (which could be what you meant by “ignorance”.
IJ added these pithy words on 15 Dec 05 at 9:47 amOn the subject of education, Robert Kaplan was interviewed by ‘American Enterprise Online’. In 1998, American Enterprise formed an alliance with the Brookings Institute to help public enlightenment. Specifically the purpose of the US alliance is to hold lawmakers and regulators accountable for their decisions.
In September AEI-Brookings released a report on the cost of intervening in Iraq:
“Government policies are routinely subjected to rigorous cost analyses. Yet one of today’s most controversial and expensive policies””?the ongoing war in Iraq””?has not been. . . . [O]ur best estimates suggests that the direct economic costs to the U.S. through August 2005 are about $255 billion, about $40 billion to coalition partners, and $134 billion to Iraq. These estimates suggest a global cost to date of about $428 billion. The avoided costs, meanwhile, are about $116 billion. We estimate that the expected total net present value of the direct costs through 2015 could be $604 billion to the U.S., $95 billion to coalition partners, and $306 billion to Iraq, suggesting a global total expected net present value of about *$1 trillion*. The net present value of total avoided costs, meanwhile, could be about $429 billion.”
The comment on the paper (linked at bottom of page) makes interesting reading too.
Eddie added these pithy words on 15 Dec 05 at 10:23 amFunny, I too was left wondering what he meant by a “more realistic outlook on India”... perhaps he meant with all the problems of overpopulation, poor government services and intra-religious/ethnic tension, India’s rise may be more hype than fact. From his previous writings, he seemed quite pessimistic about India…
I always thought the same for China as well though….
Kirk H. Sowell added these pithy words on 15 Dec 05 at 6:33 pmYounghusband: When Kaplan says that “the future of the Middle East will be determined by Iran,” I interpret that to mean that if democracy rises and the regime falls this will spur reform in other countries nearby, but if the Islamist regime stands, that will reinforce Islamism; i.e. Iran has some cultural force beyond sponsoring suicide bombers. You seem to interpet it the same way.
I think that the statement is wrong: Outside of Iraq, Iran has no more cultural impact on the Arab world than Turkey, whose democracy has had no impact. It is non-Arab and Shia, and so no one outside the Shia minority is influenced by them at all. And the Shia of Iraq have different thinking anyway about political theory, so even there Iranian influence is limited.
Compare with Iraq: the democratic flowering in Iraq is spurring reform forces everywhere in the Arab world, because they have the same language and culture. Iraq has been central to the Arab world since the 8th century. It will continue to be so in the future. Iraq will much more likely be an influence on Iran than vice versa, because Iranian reformers will set up shop in democratic Shia Iraq and export the revolution eastward.
I do agree with Kaplan’s statement about Sistani deserving a Nobel Peace Prize.
IJ: The estimated amount of our unfunded liabilities in Medicare/Medicaid and Social Security is roughly $45 trillion over the next half century, and those programs are of dubious constitutionality, whereas foreign policy is the clear mandate of the federal government. Iraq will be central to U.S. foreign policy for decades to come. Whatever the final number is in Iraq, it is a good investment.
Younghusband added these pithy words on 15 Dec 05 at 7:17 pmKirk, your interpretation of my interpretation is correct. Also, I agree with you that Iran does not have big sway with Arab nations, and that a peaceful, strong Iraq would be a huge asset for the West in the Middle East. But I am cynical of that happening anytime soon.
Iran, minus its current regime, is an ally with huge potential. They are naturally inclined to be friends with the West and without the US-imposed economic sanctions could have an amazingly powerful economy. In other words, barring any close relationship with any strong (and not autocratic) Arab nation, Iran is the number one choice in the Middle East. Even if they do pull off a stable Iraq it will take forever before Arabs stop viewing it as a client state of the US.
I am just saying that until recently, I thought a partnership with Iran much more likely than a constructive partnership with any Arab nation in the region.
PS. both Kaplan and Barnett have nominated Sistani for a Nobel Peace Prize.
Kirk H. Sowell added these pithy words on 15 Dec 05 at 8:02 pmI agree with your point as expressed in the third paragraph: anti-Americanism has a much stronger native base in the Arab world than Iran, a country which, free of the current regime, would naturally want to have close relations with the United States. I just thought that if Kaplan was pushing the idea that Iran might have some broad influence in the Arab world, the way Iraq could, then I don’t agree with that.
In re to Iraq, I think that the Sunni areas could take years to fully integrate into a democratic system, but the real action will be in the south. Look and watch at what happens in Karbala and Najaf. If these cities, which are the historic centers of Shi’ism, become bases for Iranian reformers, Tehren will need to watch out. And even without stability in Iraq, I think it is already having an impact elsewhere in the Arab world.
IJ added these pithy words on 15 Dec 05 at 8:10 pmKHS, you raise two matters.
First, on presentation. Whether a government should reveal all the bills it has committed taxpayers to repay is really a matter for the International Federation of Accountants. Some information is here. Incidentally, there are signs there will be more disclosure.
Second, on fundamentals. The AEI-Brookings report calculates the cost of the Iraq intervention at $1 trillion. Checks and balances on such decisions are surprisingly few.
