Comments on: The New Allies http://cominganarchy.com/2005/12/06/the-new-allies/ Speak Victorian, Think Pagan Sat, 20 Mar 2010 04:47:48 -0700 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.8.6 hourly 1 By: sun bin http://cominganarchy.com/2005/12/06/the-new-allies/comment-page-2/#comment-55165 sun bin Fri, 16 Dec 2005 19:31:28 +0000 http://www.cominganarchy.com/?p=1392#comment-55165 "korea poll survey FYI":http://joongangdaily.joins.com/200504/17/200504172206552209900090309031.html korea poll survey FYI

]]> By: jon http://cominganarchy.com/2005/12/06/the-new-allies/comment-page-2/#comment-54596 jon Tue, 13 Dec 2005 15:52:33 +0000 http://www.cominganarchy.com/?p=1392#comment-54596 I don't know what to make of this China/Japan/DPRK/ROK discussion, but I can tell you that the majority of Americans under the age of 30 would have to think really, really, hard to figure out what was important about December 7th. I know that many, many, many Americans go to visit the Arizona memorial as well as the Iwo Jima and other WWII memorials around the country, but I am sure that most young people are convinced that the United States declared war on Germany and that Josh Hartman or whoever it was, was the American hero of Pearl Harbor. Most young AMericans have no interest in history, the world, or America's place in it. It is not just world history there is no interest in, but American history that doesn't involve themselves or someone they know. I don’t know what to make of this China/Japan/DPRK/ROK discussion, but I can tell you that the majority of Americans under the age of 30 would have to think really, really, hard to figure out what was important about December 7th. I know that many, many, many Americans go to visit the Arizona memorial as well as the Iwo Jima and other WWII memorials around the country, but I am sure that most young people are convinced that the United States declared war on Germany and that Josh Hartman or whoever it was, was the American hero of Pearl Harbor. Most young AMericans have no interest in history, the world, or America’s place in it. It is not just world history there is no interest in, but American history that doesn’t involve themselves or someone they know.

]]> By: kushibo http://cominganarchy.com/2005/12/06/the-new-allies/comment-page-2/#comment-54302 kushibo Mon, 12 Dec 2005 08:54:06 +0000 http://www.cominganarchy.com/?p=1392#comment-54302 <b>What I find is there are always those who are paranoid about WWII in asia. Look at what Chinese and Korean leaders state these days about peace.</b> Yep. Invasion and brutal occupation will have that effect on some people. <b>Think how much their citizens are obsessed about their history.</b> Past actions provide an insight into future actions. It would be foolish to not be concerned about recent 20th century history. <b>There's no variety about opinion.</b> Three days ago I heard a man make a speech at the Shilla Hotel saying that he admired Koizumi for actually taking the kidnapping of their citizens seriously, unlike his country, South Korea. I am not home, so I don't have the quote. And the next day at another rally, on the big screen behind the speaker was a picture of someone from another rally with a sign that says "22 million > Dokdo." How's that for "no variety" of opinion? I think you should amend your sentence to say, "According to the people in the echo chamber known as the Korea-related blogosphere, there is no variety of opinion in Korea." <b>They can't be like this unless the government brainwash people with biased propaganta.</b> One wouldn't have to believe propaganda to be somewhat concerned about right-wing Japanese motives. <b>So what I means is ... Knock it off! Don't be short sighted and discuss everything around the world! It's not an asian history blog.</b> To a large extent, the problem is Roh and his administration. His ratings are in the toilet, and he thought he could boost them by playing the anti-Japan card. In order to do this, he had to <i>scrap</i> his predecessor's (Kim Daejung) policy of not letting historical issues derail the Korean-Japanese future-oriented relationship. And let's not pretend that it's just the Korean or Chinese side that's "obsessed" with this history. The right-wing of Japan itself is just as obsessed with bringing their version of Japan's "truthful" history: "The truth of modern Japanese history is now restored." What I find is there are always those who are paranoid about WWII in asia. Look at what Chinese and Korean leaders state these days about peace.

Yep. Invasion and brutal occupation will have that effect on some people.

Think how much their citizens are obsessed about their history.

Past actions provide an insight into future actions. It would be foolish to not be concerned about recent 20th century history.

There’s no variety about opinion.

Three days ago I heard a man make a speech at the Shilla Hotel saying that he admired Koizumi for actually taking the kidnapping of their citizens seriously, unlike his country, South Korea. I am not home, so I don’t have the quote.

And the next day at another rally, on the big screen behind the speaker was a picture of someone from another rally with a sign that says “22 million > Dokdo.”

How’s that for “no variety” of opinion?

I think you should amend your sentence to say, “According to the people in the echo chamber known as the Korea-related blogosphere, there is no variety of opinion in Korea.”

They can’t be like this unless the government brainwash people with biased propaganta.

One wouldn’t have to believe propaganda to be somewhat concerned about right-wing Japanese motives.

So what I means is … Knock it off!

Don’t be short sighted and discuss everything around the world! It’s not an asian history blog.

To a large extent, the problem is Roh and his administration. His ratings are in the toilet, and he thought he could boost them by playing the anti-Japan card. In order to do this, he had to scrap his predecessor’s (Kim Daejung) policy of not letting historical issues derail the Korean-Japanese future-oriented relationship.

And let’s not pretend that it’s just the Korean or Chinese side that’s “obsessed” with this history. The right-wing of Japan itself is just as obsessed with bringing their version of Japan’s “truthful” history: “The truth of modern Japanese history is now restored.”

]]> By: Curzon http://cominganarchy.com/2005/12/06/the-new-allies/comment-page-2/#comment-54300 Curzon Mon, 12 Dec 2005 07:36:07 +0000 http://www.cominganarchy.com/?p=1392#comment-54300 Agreed, and agreed. It's partly my fault for egging people on. Agreed, and agreed. It’s partly my fault for egging people on.

]]> By: pop33 http://cominganarchy.com/2005/12/06/the-new-allies/comment-page-2/#comment-54299 pop33 Mon, 12 Dec 2005 07:30:58 +0000 http://www.cominganarchy.com/?p=1392#comment-54299 What I find is there are always those who are paranoid about WWII in asia. Look at what Chinese and Korean leaders state these days about peace. Think how much their citizens are obsessed about their history. There's no variety about opinion. They can't be like this unless the government brainwash people with biased propaganta. So what I means is ... Knock it off! Don't be short sighted and discuss everything around the world! It's not an asian history blog. What I find is there are always those who are paranoid about WWII in asia. Look at what Chinese and Korean leaders state these days about peace. Think how much their citizens are obsessed about their history. There’s no variety about opinion. They can’t be like this unless the government brainwash people with biased propaganta.

So what I means is … Knock it off!

Don’t be short sighted and discuss everything around the world! It’s not an asian history blog.

]]> By: Strategy Unit - musing on global security issues, terrorism, energy, defense etc http://cominganarchy.com/2005/12/06/the-new-allies/comment-page-2/#comment-54294 Strategy Unit - musing on global security issues, terrorism, energy, defense etc Mon, 12 Dec 2005 06:28:14 +0000 http://www.cominganarchy.com/?p=1392#comment-54294 [...] As in update to my previous posting “Barnett's Path to a U.S. Grand Strategy in Three Paragraphs“, Curzon at “Coming Anarchy” has an excellent post (”The New Allies”): [...] [...] As in update to my previous posting “Barnett’s Path to a U.S. Grand Strategy in Three Paragraphs“, Curzon at “Coming Anarchy” has an excellent post (”The New Allies”): [...]

]]> By: sun bin http://cominganarchy.com/2005/12/06/the-new-allies/comment-page-2/#comment-54288 sun bin Mon, 12 Dec 2005 05:58:01 +0000 http://www.cominganarchy.com/?p=1392#comment-54288 great! would be interesting to hear what Jie Hyun say. :) i heard about the McCartney/PETA/video story. this is a reaction from a "Chinese blogger":http://lydon.yculblog.com/post.978943.html great! would be interesting to hear what Jie Hyun say. :)

i heard about the McCartney/PETA/video story. this is a reaction from a Chinese blogger

]]> By: Sonagi http://cominganarchy.com/2005/12/06/the-new-allies/comment-page-2/#comment-54287 Sonagi Mon, 12 Dec 2005 05:53:59 +0000 http://www.cominganarchy.com/?p=1392#comment-54287 I read that in the early years, the Soviet Union, China, North Korea, and Cuba all experienced growth. The problem with Communist governments is that it's hard to replace them after they've outlived their usefulness. BTW, you didn't tell me whether you are in the US. I read that in the early years, the Soviet Union, China, North Korea, and Cuba all experienced growth. The problem with Communist governments is that it’s hard to replace them after they’ve outlived their usefulness.

BTW, you didn’t tell me whether you are in the US.

]]> By: sun bin http://cominganarchy.com/2005/12/06/the-new-allies/comment-page-2/#comment-54284 sun bin Mon, 12 Dec 2005 05:44:21 +0000 http://www.cominganarchy.com/?p=1392#comment-54284 well...there is no if in history. china might just be in another mess if CKS won the civil war. One of the reason for his reform in Taiwan (and became less corrupted) was because he lost the war. the other reason for Taiwan's success was the relatively smaller size. however, there won't be famine in 1959-61, or the mess in 1966-76. but it is hard to say. taiwanese can tell you how horrible the old KMT was. well…there is no if in history. china might just be in another mess if CKS won the civil war. One of the reason for his reform in Taiwan (and became less corrupted) was because he lost the war.
the other reason for Taiwan’s success was the relatively smaller size.

however, there won’t be famine in 1959-61, or the mess in 1966-76.

but it is hard to say. taiwanese can tell you how horrible the old KMT was.

]]> By: Sonagi http://cominganarchy.com/2005/12/06/the-new-allies/comment-page-2/#comment-54283 Sonagi Mon, 12 Dec 2005 05:28:02 +0000 http://www.cominganarchy.com/?p=1392#comment-54283 No, NK could not have a Deng because KIS killed off anybody who opposed him. Thank goodness for China and the world that Deng fled to Guangdong and hid there and was not killed during the Cultural Revolution. I understand why Chinese netizens would rather dig a hole than face South Koreans. If China had not entered the war, there would be one united, prosperous, and free Korea. Looking at Taiwan's economic development, have you ever wondered what China would look like without the CCP? No, NK could not have a Deng because KIS killed off anybody who opposed him. Thank goodness for China and the world that Deng fled to Guangdong and hid there and was not killed during the Cultural Revolution. I understand why Chinese netizens would rather dig a hole than face South Koreans. If China had not entered the war, there would be one united, prosperous, and free Korea.

Looking at Taiwan’s economic development, have you ever wondered what China would look like without the CCP?

]]> By: sun bin http://cominganarchy.com/2005/12/06/the-new-allies/comment-page-2/#comment-54279 sun bin Mon, 12 Dec 2005 05:20:25 +0000 http://www.cominganarchy.com/?p=1392#comment-54279 in hindsight, yes, you are right. as i noted before, many chinese netizen said "after sacrificing 1M lives, today i want to dig a hole if i am facing a south korean friends" -- if i find such quote again, i will post it. but you know, one shall not judge history with such hindsight. NK could have a Deng, and SK couls have a Bastita, or Marcos, Suharto. in you think along this line, and put ourselves into the shoes of the people in 1950s. you could see why there was really no right or wrong in these cold war conflict. --- well, you could say all wars were wrong. in hindsight, yes, you are right.

as i noted before, many chinese netizen said “after sacrificing 1M lives, today i want to dig a hole if i am facing a south korean friends” — if i find such quote again, i will post it.

but you know, one shall not judge history with such hindsight.
NK could have a Deng, and SK couls have a Bastita, or Marcos, Suharto.
in you think along this line, and put ourselves into the shoes of the people in 1950s. you could see why there was really no right or wrong in these cold war conflict. — well, you could say all wars were wrong.

]]> By: Sonagi http://cominganarchy.com/2005/12/06/the-new-allies/comment-page-2/#comment-54278 Sonagi Mon, 12 Dec 2005 05:16:45 +0000 http://www.cominganarchy.com/?p=1392#comment-54278 BTW, I found Jie Hyun, a real live Korean, on another thread. I invited her to join our discussion. She is a South Korean, of course. Hope that's okay. :) BTW, I found Jie Hyun, a real live Korean, on another thread. I invited her to join our discussion. She is a South Korean, of course. Hope that’s okay. :)

]]> By: Sonagi http://cominganarchy.com/2005/12/06/the-new-allies/comment-page-2/#comment-54277 Sonagi Mon, 12 Dec 2005 05:12:09 +0000 http://www.cominganarchy.com/?p=1392#comment-54277 This is switching the topic, but right now I am watching Larry King Live on CNN. Heather McCartney is talking about that dog and cat fur video. Are you in the US? This is switching the topic, but right now I am watching Larry King Live on CNN. Heather McCartney is talking about that dog and cat fur video. Are you in the US?

]]> By: sun bin http://cominganarchy.com/2005/12/06/the-new-allies/comment-page-2/#comment-54276 sun bin Mon, 12 Dec 2005 05:12:06 +0000 http://www.cominganarchy.com/?p=1392#comment-54276 sonagi, read shen zhihua's essay in the link above. he believe Stalin miscalculated US and encouraged Kim I-S. but this is his conclusion. Ã¥” Â·Ã¦Ë†ËœÃ¥'ξ”žÂ?诔 Ã¥Â½Â¢Ã¦â‚¬Â?对ç«”¹Ã§Å¡”žÃ§”ºÂ´Ã¦Å½Â¥Ã¥Â?Žæžœæ˜¯é˜»éš”?五 Ã¥Â¤Â§Ã¥”ºÂ½Ã¤Â¹”¹Ã©—´çš”žÃ¥Â¯Â¹Ã¨Â¯Â?Ã¥'Œæ²Ÿé€šï¼Œç”?±äºŽåÂ?ξ”“¹é™·å”¦Â¥Ã¤Âº” Ã§Â?” Ã¨Â§Â£Ã§Å¡”žÃ§”ºÂ²Ã§”šÂ¹Ã¯Â¼Å’在夔žÃ§Â?” Ã¥”ºÂ½Ã©â„¢”¦Ã¤Âº”¹Ã¥Å Â¡Ã¥'΍”ºÂ¸Ã¤Âº'Ã¥”¦Â³Ã§Â³Â»Ã¦—¶æ ¹æÂ?®ç”ºÂ´Ã¨Â§”šÃ§Å¡”žÃ©”?™è¯¯åˆ¤æ”“­é”¡”¡Ã¥Â?”“五 Ã©”?™è¯¯çš”žÃ¥” Â³Ã§Â­”“Ã¥'Œè¡ŒåŠ¨ï¼Œä»¥è”¡Â´Ã¤Â»ËœÃ¥”¡ÂºÃ¤Âº” Ã¦Å“¾Â?¥åÂ?¯ä»¥éÂ?¿å”¦Â?çš”žÃ¦Â²”°Ã©”¡Â?代价〔š50å¹´åÂ?Žå”ºÅ¾Ã©Â¡Â¾Ã¨Â¿â„¢Ã¥Å“ºåÂ?·å”¦Â¥Ã¤ÂºÅ’Ã¥Â?Â?Ã¥”¡Â Ã¤Â¸ÂªÃ¥”ºÂ½Ã¥Â®Â¶Ã§Å¡”žÃ¥Å“°åŒºæ€§ä¸”“產Œ战五°Ã§Å¡”žÃ§Ë†” Ã¥Â?”˜Ã¥Â?Šå”¦Â¶Ã¥Â?Žæžœï¼Œä¸Â?是令人深æ€Â?Ã¥Â?—？ if you are interested in, check out his other essays as well. sonagi,

read shen zhihua’s essay in the link above. he believe Stalin miscalculated US and encouraged Kim I-S. but this is his conclusion.

ÃÂ¥â Ã·Ã¦Ãâ ÃÅÃÂ¥’ÃâæâžÃ?èïâ Ã¥ýâæââ¬Ã?Ã¥ïùçëâ¹Ã§Ã¡âžÃ§âºÃ´Ã¦Ã½ÃÂ¥ÃÂ¥Ã?ýæþÃâæÃÅïéÃÅûéáâ?äúâ Ã¥äçÃÂ¥âºÃ½Ã¤Ã¹â¹Ã©âôçáâžÃ¥ïùèïÃ?ÃÂ¥’Ãâæòøéââ¬Ã¡Ã¯Ã¼Ãâçâ?ñäúýÃÂ¥Ã?Ãâæââùéââ¢Ã·ÃÂ¥â¦Ã¥äúâ Ã§Ã?â Ã¨Ã§Ã£Ã§Ã¡âžÃ§âºÃ²Ã§âšùïüÃâÃÂ¥ÃâèÃ¥äâžÃ§Ã?â ÃÂ¥âºÃ½Ã©ââ¢â¦Ã¤Ãºâ¹Ã¥àáÃÂ¥’ÃâçâºÃ¸Ã¤Ãº’ÃÂ¥â¦Ã³Ã§Ã³Ã»Ã¦âöæàùæÃ?îçâºÃ´Ã¨Ã§âšçáâžÃ©â?ââ¢Ã¨Ã¯Ã¯ÃÂ¥Ãâ Ã¤Ã¦ââíéâ¡â¡ÃÂ¥Ã?ââäúâ Ã©â?ââ¢Ã¨Ã¯Ã¯Ã§Ã¡âžÃÂ¥â Ã³Ã§Ã­ââÃÂ¥’ÃâèáÃâÃ¥àèïüÃâäûÃ¥èâ¡Ã´Ã¤Ã»ÃÅÃÂ¥â¡ÃºÃ¤Ãºâ Ã¦ÃâìæÃ?ÃÂ¥ÃÂ¥Ã?ïäûÃ¥éÃ?ÿÃÂ¥â¦Ã?çáâžÃ¦Ã²â°Ã©â¡Ã?äûãäû÷ãââ¬âÅ¡50Ã¥ùôÃÂ¥Ã?ýÃÂ¥âºÃ¾Ã©Ã¡Ã¾Ã¨Ã¿ââ¢ÃÂ¥ÃâúÃÂ¥Ã?÷ÃÂ¥â¦Ã¥äúÃâÃÂ¥Ã?Ã?ÃÂ¥â¡Ã Ã¤Ã¸ÃªÃÂ¥âºÃ½Ã¥îöçáâžÃÂ¥ÃâðÃÂ¥Ãâúæââ¬Ã§Ã¤Ã¸ââçâ¢ÃâæÃâ ÃÅäúâ°Ã§Ã¡âžÃ§Ãâ â ÃÂ¥Ã?âËÃÂ¥Ã?àÃÂ¥â¦Ã¶ÃÂ¥Ã?ýæþÃâïüÃâäøÃ?æÃÅïäûääúúæ÷ñæââ¬Ã?ÃÂ¥Ã?âïüø

if you are interested in, check out his other essays as well.

]]> By: Sonagi http://cominganarchy.com/2005/12/06/the-new-allies/comment-page-2/#comment-54275 Sonagi Mon, 12 Dec 2005 05:09:17 +0000 http://www.cominganarchy.com/?p=1392#comment-54275 Tomorrow I'll check out my middle school world history text to see if the Union did indeed liberate the South. You are right that in 1950 North and South looked very different from today. It was hard to tell the good guys from the bad guys. However, it is 2005, and the Chinese can see the long-term outcome. I understand why the Chinese blame the US, but look at the war from a pan-Korean point of view. If the US had not helped the South, Korea would be united under the Kim Dynasty. There would be no prosperous South. The South is free, and someday the North will be, too. Tomorrow I’ll check out my middle school world history text to see if the Union did indeed liberate the South.

You are right that in 1950 North and South looked very different from today. It was hard to tell the good guys from the bad guys. However, it is 2005, and the Chinese can see the long-term outcome. I understand why the Chinese blame the US, but look at the war from a pan-Korean point of view. If the US had not helped the South, Korea would be united under the Kim Dynasty. There would be no prosperous South. The South is free, and someday the North will be, too.

]]> By: sun bin http://cominganarchy.com/2005/12/06/the-new-allies/comment-page-2/#comment-54271 sun bin Mon, 12 Dec 2005 04:55:23 +0000 http://www.cominganarchy.com/?p=1392#comment-54271 sonagi, of course it is liberated:) you spent 4 years in China, right? CCP liberated China from KMT as well :) LOL what is wrong with this? In Chinese books, they would also say, The Union liberated the South from the Confederate. of course it is positive on NK. how can you predict the 1990s famine when you were in the 1950s? Kim Il Sung's NK was better than Mao's China from 1965-1978. of course china blames the US. if US were not involved (or UN, because USSR boycotted UN meeting), China would not have lost 1M soldier, and was isloated in the 1950s, embargo......China entered the war very reluctantly. Kim Il Sung was a fighter for unification. he STARTED the unification war! LOL it was about the cold war for god's sake. i thought we are talking about how facts were recognized, not how opinions were aligned with yours. sonagi,

of course it is liberated:) you spent 4 years in China, right?
CCP liberated China from KMT as well :) LOL
what is wrong with this? In Chinese books, they would also say, The Union liberated the South from the Confederate.

of course it is positive on NK. how can you predict the 1990s famine when you were in the 1950s? Kim Il Sung’s NK was better than Mao’s China from 1965-1978.

of course china blames the US. if US were not involved (or UN, because USSR boycotted UN meeting), China would not have lost 1M soldier, and was isloated in the 1950s, embargo……China entered the war very reluctantly.

Kim Il Sung was a fighter for unification. he STARTED the unification war! LOL

it was about the cold war for god’s sake.

i thought we are talking about how facts were recognized, not how opinions were aligned with yours.

]]> By: Sonagi http://cominganarchy.com/2005/12/06/the-new-allies/comment-page-2/#comment-54270 Sonagi Mon, 12 Dec 2005 04:54:18 +0000 http://www.cominganarchy.com/?p=1392#comment-54270 Thank you for the links, Sunbin. The two webpages do acknowledge that the north fired the first shot, but otherwise, the language and content is the same as the Sina page. All of the sites squarely fault the US and the South for the war. All of the pages treat Kim Il-Sung's invasion as war to unifty and liberate the South. The webpages correctly describe the participation of Japanese collaborators in the South's government and the assassination of Kim Ku, but fail to mention how Kim Il-Sung murdered those who opposed his rule from the time he grabbed power in the north until his death. China is still defending its lips and teeth buddy more than 50 years later. Thank you for the links, Sunbin. The two webpages do acknowledge that the north fired the first shot, but otherwise, the language and content is the same as the Sina page. All of the sites squarely fault the US and the South for the war. All of the pages treat Kim Il-Sung’s invasion as war to unifty and liberate the South. The webpages correctly describe the participation of Japanese collaborators in the South’s government and the assassination of Kim Ku, but fail to mention how Kim Il-Sung murdered those who opposed his rule from the time he grabbed power in the north until his death. China is still defending its lips and teeth buddy more than 50 years later.

]]> By: sun bin http://cominganarchy.com/2005/12/06/the-new-allies/comment-page-2/#comment-54269 sun bin Mon, 12 Dec 2005 04:45:21 +0000 http://www.cominganarchy.com/?p=1392#comment-54269 ok, this one is official, from historian Shen Zhihua "link":http://www.shenzhihua.net/cxzz/000022.htm in the same site you can find his other publicationss/researches on the Soviet/China telegraph, about how divided CCP was about getting involved in the Korean war, and what Stalin, Mao and Zhou talked about China's involvement. he did not talk too much about who started the war. just this one sentence. _korea war was started by the NK, this is no secret among international academics_ æœÂ?鲜战五°Ã¦ËœÂ¯Ã§”?±åŒ—æœÂ?鲜åÂ?”˜Ã¥Å Â¨Ã§Å¡”žÃ¯Â¼Å’这一甚¹åœ¨å”ºÂ½Ã©â„¢”¦Ã¥Â­Â¦Ã§”¢Å’Ã¥”¦Â¶Ã¥Â®Å¾Ã¥Â·Â²Ã§Â»Â?ä¸Â?是什么秘寔 Ã£â‚¬”š ok, this one is official, from historian Shen Zhihua link

in the same site you can find his other publicationss/researches on the Soviet/China telegraph, about how divided CCP was about getting involved in the Korean war, and what Stalin, Mao and Zhou talked about China’s involvement.

he did not talk too much about who started the war. just this one sentence.
korea war was started by the NK, this is no secret among international academics

æÃâÃ?éòÃâæÃâ ÃÅäúâ°Ã¦ÃÅïçâ?ñÃÂ¥ÃââæÃâÃ?éòÃâÃÂ¥Ã?âËÃ¥àèçáâžÃ¯Ã¼Ãâèÿââ¢Ã¤Ã¸ââ¬Ã§âšùÃÂ¥ÃâèÃÂ¥âºÃ½Ã©ââ¢â¦Ã¥íæçâ¢ÃâÃÂ¥â¦Ã¶Ã¥îþÃ¥÷òçûÃ?äøÃ?æÃÅïäÃȉâ¬Ã¤Ã¹Ãâ Ã§Ã§ÃÅÃ¥ïâ Ã£ââ¬âÅ¡

]]> By: Sonagi http://cominganarchy.com/2005/12/06/the-new-allies/comment-page-2/#comment-54264 Sonagi Mon, 12 Dec 2005 04:20:18 +0000 http://www.cominganarchy.com/?p=1392#comment-54264 Further down in the Sina article, "In mid-August, the Korean (�鲜) army crossed the Naktong River and LIBERATED (my emphasis) much of the south. On June 28, the Korean army LIBERATED Seoul, on July 20, Daejon." Liberated Seoul from who? The South Koreans? The whole article blames the US for the war and describes Kim Il-Sung's North Korea in very positive language, treating him as the legitimate leader of all of Korea and a fighter for unification, independence, and FREEDOM . Sina is a major Chinese portal. Further down in the Sina article,

“In mid-August, the Korean (æÃâÃ?éòÃâ) army crossed the Naktong River and LIBERATED (my emphasis) much of the south. On June 28, the Korean army LIBERATED Seoul, on July 20, Daejon.” Liberated Seoul from who? The South Koreans?

The whole article blames the US for the war and describes Kim Il-Sung’s North Korea in very positive language, treating him as the legitimate leader of all of Korea and a fighter for unification, independence, and FREEDOM . Sina is a major Chinese portal.

]]> By: sun bin http://cominganarchy.com/2005/12/06/the-new-allies/comment-page-2/#comment-54262 sun bin Mon, 12 Dec 2005 04:13:41 +0000 http://www.cominganarchy.com/?p=1392#comment-54262 another "site":http://www.fyjs.cn/bbs/htm_data/112/0510/42020.html this is from a forum, but as you probably know, many research paper and academics in China post good essay (violates copyright) in internet fora. _who fired the first shot? it is very clear now, it is NK_ (this also implied it wasn't so clear in the texts in the past) 2ã€Â?æœÂ?鲜战五°Ã¦ËœÂ¯Ã¨Â°Â?æ”°“çš”žÃ§Â¬Â¬Ã¤Â¸â‚¬Ã¦Å¾ÂªÃ¯Â¼Å¸ è¦Â?是é—®1950å¹´6月25日是è°Â?æ”°“çš”žÃ§Â¬Â¬Ã¤Â¸â‚¬Ã¦Å¾ÂªÃ¯Â¼Å’现在已ç»Â?很明确五 Ã¯Â¼Å’是北æœÂ?鲜〔š another site

this is from a forum, but as you probably know, many research paper and academics in China post good essay (violates copyright) in internet fora.

who fired the first shot? it is very clear now, it is NK
(this also implied it wasn’t so clear in the texts in the past)

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]]> By: sun bin http://cominganarchy.com/2005/12/06/the-new-allies/comment-page-2/#comment-54261 sun bin Mon, 12 Dec 2005 04:01:54 +0000 http://www.cominganarchy.com/?p=1392#comment-54261 this discussion with kushibo is becoming a debate, not a discussion. i will just have to stop here. anyway, as to sonagi, this is a one of the "sites":http://www.yifan.net/yihe/novels/wars/yuanchao/yuanchao1.html not really official, but you can find a lot of this in baidu/google. this one clear stated NK crossed the 38 to start war. 第一，战役背景 1950å¹´6月25日，æœÂ?鲜战五°Ã§Ë†” Ã¥Â?”˜Ã£â‚¬”šÃ¥Å’—æœÂ?鲜人æ°”˜Ã¥” ”ºÃ¨Â¶Å Ã¨Â¿”¡38度线挔˜Ã¨ÂµÂ·Ã¦Ë†ËœÃ§Â«Â¯Ã¯Â¼Å’Ã¥Â?Œç¾Žå”ºÂ½Ã¦”?¯æŒÂ? çš”žÃ¥Â?—韩å” ”ºÃ©ËœÅ¸Ã¥Â±”¢Ã¥Â¼â‚¬ 激战〔š6月27日，美唺½å”¦Â¬Ã§”žÂ¶Ã¤Â»Â¥Ã¥”¦Â¶Ã¦ÂµÂ·Ã¥” ”ºÃ¥'Œç©ºå” ”ºÃ§”ºÂ´Ã¦Å½Â¥Ã¥”¦Â¥Ã¤Â¾ÂµÃ¦Å“Â?鲜，åÂ?ξ—¶æ´¾ éÂ?£å”¦Â¶Ã§Â¬Â¬7舰队侵唦¥ä¸­å”ºÂ½Ã¥Â?°æ¹¾æµ·å³¡ï¼Œ 以武劔ºÃ©ËœÂ»Ã¦Å’ ä¸­å”ºÂ½Ã§Â»Å¸Ã¤Â¸â‚¬Ã¯Â¼Å’解æ”?¾åÂ?°æ¹¾ã€”š6月30日，美唺½é™” Ã¥” ”ºÃ§Â¬Â¬Ã¥”¦Â«Ã©”º” Ã¥”ºÂ¢Ã¥” ”ºÃ§”ºÂ´Ã¦Å½Â¥Ã¥Â?”šÃ¥Å Â Ã¤Âº” Ã¦Å“Â?鲜 çš”žÃ¥Å“°éÂ?¢ä½œæˆ˜ã€”šÃ§Â¾Å½ Ã¥”ºÂ½Ã¤Â¸ÂºÃ¤Â½Â¿Ã¥”¦Â¶Ã¤Â¾ÂµÃ§”¢Â¥Ã¨Â¡Å’å¾”žÃ¥Â?ˆæ³”¢Ã¥Å’”“，åÂ?ˆäºŽ7月7æ—¥æ“Â?纵èÂ?”?Ã¥Â?ˆå”ºÂ½Ã©Â?žæ³”¢Ã¦Å½Ë†Ã¦Â?Æ’Ã¥”¦Â¶Ã¦Å’”¡ æ´¾åÂ?¸ä»¤å®˜ç»Ÿä¸€æŒ”¡Ã¦Å’¥ä¾µæœÂ?Ã¥Â?”žÃ¥”ºÂ½Ã¥” ”ºÃ©ËœÅ¸Ã£â‚¬”š 从此美唺½å°±æ”°“çÂ?€"èÂ?”?Ã¥Â?ˆå”ºÂ½"Â?çš”žÃ¦——Ã¥Â?·ï¼Œçº åÂ?ˆæŒ”¡Ã¦Å’¥æ”°â‚¬Ã¨Â°“"èÂ?”?Ã¥Â?ˆå”ºÂ½Ã¥” ”º"Â?Ã¥”¦Â¬Ã¥Â¼â‚¬Ã¥Â¯Â¹Ã¦Å“Â?鲜è¿”ºÃ¨Â¡Å’ä¾µ 產¥æˆ˜äº”°Ã£â‚¬”š ..... 美唺½æ”?¿åºœæ— è§” Ã¤Â¸Â­ Ã¥”ºÂ½Ã¦”?¿åºœçš”žÃ¨Â­Â¦Ã¥”˜Å Ã¥'Å’Ã¥”ºÂ½Ã©â„¢”¦Ã¨Ë†” Ã¨Â®ÂºÃ§Å¡”žÃ¨Â°Â´Ã¨Â´Â£Ã¯Â¼Å’于10月1日攚Â?甞¶è¶Šè¿”¡Ã¤Â¸”°Ã¥”¦Â«Ã§ÂºÂ¿Ã¯Â¼Å’甓¯ç”¹”šÃ¥Å“°åÂ?”˜Ã¥Å’—æœÂ?鲜馔“ 都平壤å'Œä¸œéƒ¨é”¡Â?锢”¡Ã¥”¦Æ’山答°Ã¥Å“°è¿”ºÃ©â‚¬Â¼Ã¯Â¼Å’并多次派éÂ?£ç©ºå” ”ºÃ¨Â½Â°Ã§”šÂ¸Ã¤Â¸Â­Ã¥”ºÂ½Ã¤Â¸Å“北边境çš”žÃ¤Â¸â‚¬Ã¤Âº”ºÃ¥Å¸Å½Ã©”¢”¡Ã¥'Å’ 乡æÂ?”˜Ã¯Â¼Å’还甹”šÃ¥Â¦”žÃ¥Â?«åš£ï¼š"鸭绿江并ä¸Â?是把两唺½(挔¡Ã¤Â¸Â­Ã¦Å“Â?)截甞¶åˆ” Ã¥Â¼â‚¬Ã§Å¡”žÃ¤Â¸Â?Ã¥Â?¯é€¾è¶Šçš”žÃ©Å¡Å“ç¢Â?"Â? 〔šÃ¨Â¿â„¢Ã¥Â°Â±Ã¤Â¸Â?ä»”¦Ã¥Â¨Â?èƒÂ?çÂ?€åŒ—æœÂ?鲜çš”žÃ§”?Ÿå­˜ï¼ŒåÂ?ξ—¶ä¹Ÿæ”ºÂ´Ã¤Â¸Â¥Ã©”¡Â?地å¨Â?èƒÂ?çÂ?€ä¸­åÂ?Žäººæ°”˜Ã¥”¦Â±Ã¥'Å’Ã¥”ºÂ½Ã§Å¡”žÃ¥Â®”°Ã¥”¦Â¨Ã¯Â¼Å’ å¨Â?èƒÂ?çÂ?€ä¸”“產Œ皔žÃ¥'Œå¹³ã€”š this discussion with kushibo is becoming a debate, not a discussion. i will just have to stop here.

anyway, as to sonagi, this is a one of the sites

not really official, but you can find a lot of this in baidu/google.

this one clear stated NK crossed the 38 to start war.
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]]> By: Kushibo http://cominganarchy.com/2005/12/06/the-new-allies/comment-page-1/#comment-54253 Kushibo Mon, 12 Dec 2005 03:05:39 +0000 http://www.cominganarchy.com/?p=1392#comment-54253 Curzon wrote: <b>Also, I'm guessing you've never been to Yasukuni, or if you have been you should look again. It doesn't villify anyone, certainly not the Americans. Note how many of the exhibits, such as the artillery tube in the front hall, are DONATED by the US military forces.</b> Your guess would be wrong. I've been to Yasukuni, and paid the 800 yen to see the Yūshūkan Museum inside. The two Americans I was with were shaking their heads and occasionally muttering "Bullshit!" at what they read there. I'll answer more later. Curzon wrote:
Also, I’m guessing you’ve never been to Yasukuni, or if you have been you should look again. It doesn’t villify anyone, certainly not the Americans. Note how many of the exhibits, such as the artillery tube in the front hall, are DONATED by the US military forces.

Your guess would be wrong. I’ve been to Yasukuni, and paid the 800 yen to see the YÃâ¦Ã«shÃâ¦Ã«kan Museum inside. The two Americans I was with were shaking their heads and occasionally muttering “Bullshit!” at what they read there.

I’ll answer more later.

]]> By: Kushibo http://cominganarchy.com/2005/12/06/the-new-allies/comment-page-1/#comment-54250 Kushibo Mon, 12 Dec 2005 03:01:49 +0000 http://www.cominganarchy.com/?p=1392#comment-54250 sun bin said: <b>as for the aids china gives to NK, put you into China's position. you would do the same, and even more. 1. you are facing an encirclement of the anti-china alliance</b> An anti-China alliance that has been threatened by China or has recently been on the wrong end of Chinese aggression (with the exception of Japan). <b>2. you do not want instability/war across your border, nor refugee wave</b> And propping up a person who starves his own people for political gain promotes stability how? <b>china is not happy at NK at all.</b> Unlike South Korea, Japan, the United States, and just about everyone else with an interest in it, China is NOT virtually powerless to do something about it. At the Seoul Summit on NK Human Rights, China was a hot topic. Its free ride is over, my friend. <b>about refugee repatriation, i explained the reasons here if UN grants refugee status to them, i am sure China would oblige.</b> Granting refugee status to them would violate a DPRK-PRC agreement. I doubt they would unless the outside world successfully <i>pressures</i> them. And this is why I will NOT be watching any Olympic events in 2008, if Beijing does not change its behavior. sun bin said: <b>buffer states: both NK and SK are buffer states of the cold war. and you said it, China does not want to see NK implode. (Nor does SK?)</b> South Korea would have liked to see North Korea as part of the Republic of Korea, but China nixed that now, didn't they? <b>China is not happy with NK status quo either, but there is nothing much it could do.</b> Stop repatriating people who will be sent to their deaths. Demand reforms or else energy will be cut off. Lots of things they could do. Lots of things that only China could do. sun bin said: <b>despite your claim or mine about what koreans really think. this is the only poll related info i found by googling if you can search korea web, maybe you can back up your claims.</b> I'll find some stuff later. But this poll simply reflects bullishness about Chinese investment opportunity. Depending on the wording, I'm guessing it also reflects a positive attitude toward the Chinese people, not the government. And, as the article makes clear, it is not just the South Koreans, but also the Australians and others who have this rosy view of China. I should also point out that this poll was taken around the time when the near-hysterical media frenzy on Japan was taking place. Polls in Korea are nebulous and ephemeral. sun bin said: <b>listen to the clipping here as well they talked about the Koguryo incidence, and also that "Korean see China's rise as much benign than that of Japan"Â?</b> Whoa, there, sun bin. I listened to the clip and it compared China's rise today as more benign than that of Japan <i>a hundred years ago</i>. It was not a comparison of who is perceived as the greater threat today. And I would agree that China today is more benign than Imperial Japan. Ultimately, in addition to much of the rest of the Asian mainland, Japan ate up <i>all</i> of Korea. China is poised to probably swallow up no more than <i>half</i> (the same half that the PRC is responsible for the ROK losing). <b>well, i guess there are all kinds of people in a country, esp in each extreme. but we are talking about the majority and moderates.</b> The majority is leery of China's rise. Always considered economic rivals and now they are increasingly being talked up as a threat to eventual unification. sun bin said:
as for the aids china gives to NK, put you into China’s position. you would do the same, and even more.
1. you are facing an encirclement of the anti-china alliance

An anti-China alliance that has been threatened by China or has recently been on the wrong end of Chinese aggression (with the exception of Japan).

2. you do not want instability/war across your border, nor refugee wave

And propping up a person who starves his own people for political gain promotes stability how?

china is not happy at NK at all.

Unlike South Korea, Japan, the United States, and just about everyone else with an interest in it, China is NOT virtually powerless to do something about it.

At the Seoul Summit on NK Human Rights, China was a hot topic. Its free ride is over, my friend.

about refugee repatriation, i explained the reasons here
if UN grants refugee status to them, i am sure China would oblige.

Granting refugee status to them would violate a DPRK-PRC agreement. I doubt they would unless the outside world successfully pressures them. And this is why I will NOT be watching any Olympic events in 2008, if Beijing does not change its behavior.

sun bin said:
buffer states: both NK and SK are buffer states of the cold war.
and you said it, China does not want to see NK implode. (Nor does SK?)

South Korea would have liked to see North Korea as part of the Republic of Korea, but China nixed that now, didn’t they?

China is not happy with NK status quo either, but there is nothing much it could do.

Stop repatriating people who will be sent to their deaths. Demand reforms or else energy will be cut off. Lots of things they could do. Lots of things that only China could do.

sun bin said:
despite your claim or mine about what koreans really think.
this is the only poll related info i found by googling if you can search korea web, maybe you can back up your claims.

I’ll find some stuff later. But this poll simply reflects bullishness about Chinese investment opportunity. Depending on the wording, I’m guessing it also reflects a positive attitude toward the Chinese people, not the government. And, as the article makes clear, it is not just the South Koreans, but also the Australians and others who have this rosy view of China.

I should also point out that this poll was taken around the time when the near-hysterical media frenzy on Japan was taking place.

Polls in Korea are nebulous and ephemeral.

sun bin said:
listen to the clipping here as well

they talked about the Koguryo incidence, and also that “Korean see China’s rise as much benign than that of Japan”Ã?

Whoa, there, sun bin. I listened to the clip and it compared China’s rise today as more benign than that of Japan a hundred years ago. It was not a comparison of who is perceived as the greater threat today.

And I would agree that China today is more benign than Imperial Japan. Ultimately, in addition to much of the rest of the Asian mainland, Japan ate up all of Korea. China is poised to probably swallow up no more than half (the same half that the PRC is responsible for the ROK losing).

well, i guess there are all kinds of people in a country, esp in each extreme. but we are talking about the majority and moderates.

The majority is leery of China’s rise. Always considered economic rivals and now they are increasingly being talked up as a threat to eventual unification.

]]> By: Sonagi http://cominganarchy.com/2005/12/06/the-new-allies/comment-page-1/#comment-54249 Sonagi Mon, 12 Dec 2005 03:01:29 +0000 http://www.cominganarchy.com/?p=1392#comment-54249 The link doesn't work, so here's the translated portion of the original text from Sina: 中唺½äººæ°”˜Ã¥Â¿—攞¿å” ”ºÃ¦Å —美æÂ?´æœÂ?战五°1950大五¹Ã¨Â®Â°(一) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- http://www.sina.com.cn 2003å¹´03月29æ—Â¥02:01 攓°åÂ?Žç½”˜ 　　1950å¹´6月25æ—¥æœÂ?鲜å” ”¦Ã¦Ë†ËœÃ§Ë†” Ã¥Â?”˜ 　　第二次且“產Œ大战å°” Ã¨Â¿”˜Ã§Â»“æÂ?Ÿæ—¶ï¼Œç¾Žè”¹Â?两å” ”ºÃ¤Â»Â¥Ã¥Å’—纬且°Ã¥Â?Â?Ã¥”¦Â«Ã¥ÂºÂ¦Ã§ÂºÂ¿Ã¤Â¸ÂºÃ§”¢Å’，刔 Ã¥Ë†Â«Ã¥Â? é¢” Ã¥Â?—北æœÂ?鲜，接åÂ?—日唠”ºÃ¦Å ”¢Ã©â„¢Â?〔šÃ¥Â?ŽæÂ?¥ï¼Œç¾Žå”ºÂ½Ã¨Â¿Â?Ã¥Â?Â?Ã¥Â?΍”ºÅ¸Ã¥”ºÂ½Ã¥”¦Â³Ã¤ÂºÅ½Ã¦Å“Â?鲜蔡ªç”?±ç”¹Â¬Ã§Â«”¹Ã¥Â?ŠæˆÂ?ç«”¹Ã§Â»Å¸Ã¤Â¸â‚¬Ã§Å¡”žÃ¦Å“Â?鲜æ”?¿åºœçš”žÃ¥Â?Â?议，刔 Ã¨Â£”šÃ¦Å“Â?鲜，æ”?¯æŒÂ?æÂ?Žæ”°Â¿Ã¦â„¢Å¡Ã©”º” Ã¥”ºÂ¢Ã¤ÂºÅ½1948å¹´8月在æœÂ?鲜åÂ?—Ã¥Â?Šéƒ¨æˆÂ?ç«”¹Ã¤Âº” "大韩æ°”˜Ã¥”ºÂ½Ã¦”?¿åºœ"Â?〔šÃ¥Â?Œå¹´9月，æœÂ?鲜北åÂ?Šéƒ¨ä¹ŸæˆÂ?ç«”¹Ã¤Âº” Ã¤Â»Â¥Ã©”¡”˜Ã¦—¥æˆÂ?为馔“町¸çš”žÃ¦Å“Â?鲜æ°”˜Ã¤Â¸Â»Ã¤Â¸Â»Ã¤Â¹”°Ã¤ÂºÂºÃ¦Â°”˜Ã¥”¦Â±Ã¥'Å’Ã¥”ºÂ½Ã¦”?¿åºœã€”šÃ¦Â­Â¤Ã¥Â?Žï¼Œä¸ºæœÂ?鲜çš”žÃ§Â»Å¸Ã¤Â¸â‚¬Ã©—® 题，åÂ?—北æœÂ?鲜å±”¢Ã¥Â¼â‚¬Ã¤Âº” Ã¦”ºÂ´Ã¥Å Â Ã¦Â¿â‚¬Ã§Æ’ˆçš”žÃ¦”“—五°Ã£â‚¬”š 　　1950å¹´6月25日，终于爔 Ã¥Â?”˜Ã¤Âº” Ã¦Å“Â?鲜å” ”¦Ã¦Ë†ËœÃ£â‚¬”š 　　6月27日美唺½æ­¦è£”¦Ã¥Â¹Â²Ã¦Â¶”°Ã¦Å“Â?鲜å” ”¦Ã¦”?¿ï¼Œå¹¶å”¦Â¥Ã¤Â¾ÂµÃ¦Ë†”˜Ã¥”ºÂ½Ã©Â¢” Ã¥Å“ŸåÂ?°æ¹¾ 　　æœÂ?鲜å” ”¦Ã¦Ë†ËœÃ§Ë†” Ã¥Â?”˜Ã¥Â?Žçš”žÃ§Â¬Â¬Ã¤ÂºÅ’天，6月26日，美唺½æ€»ç»ŸæÂ?œé²Â?é—¨åÂ?³å”˜Â½Ã¤Â»Â¤Ã¥”¦Â¶Ã©Â©Â»Ã¥Å“¨è¿œä¸œçš”žÃ§Â©ÂºÃ£â‚¬Â?æµ·å” ”ºÃ¦”?¯æÂ?´éŸ©å” ”ºÃ¤Â½Å“战〔š27日，æÂ?œé²Â?é—¨åÂ?”˜Ã¨Â¡Â¨Ã¥Â£Â°Ã¦ËœÅ½Ã¯Â¼Å’Ã¥”¦Â¬Ã¥Â¼â‚¬Ã¥Â®Â£Ã¥Â¸Æ’武裔¦Ã¥Â¹Â²Ã¦Â¶”°Ã¦Å“Â?鲜å” ”¦Ã¦”?¿ï¼Œå¹¶å”˜Â½Ã¤Â»Â¤Ã¥”¦Â¶Ã¦ÂµÂ·Ã¥” ”ºÃ§Â¬Â¬Ã¤Â¸Æ’舰队侵唦¥åÂ?°æ¹¾æµ·å³¡ï¼Œå”¦Â¥Ã¤Â¾ÂµÃ¤Â¸Â­Ã¥”ºÂ½Ã©Â¢” Ã¥Å“ŸåÂ?°æ¹¾ã€”šÃ¥Â?ξ—¥ï¼Œç¾Žå”ºÂ½Ã¦“Â?纵èÂ?”?Ã¥Â?ˆå”ºÂ½Ã¥Â®”°Ã§Â?” Ã¤Â¼Å¡Ã©â‚¬Å¡Ã¨Â¿”¡Ã©Â?žæ³”¢Ã¥” Â³Ã¨Â®Â®Ã¯Â¼Å’以"紧急æÂ?´åŠ©"Â?Ã¥Â?—æœÂ?鲜为åÂ?Â?，为美唺½æÂ?œç½—ä¾µæœÂ?Ã¥” ”ºÃ©ËœÅ¸Ã£â‚¬”š 　　7月1日，美唺½åœ°éÂ?¢éƒ¨é˜Ÿè¿”ºÃ¥”¦Â¥Ã¦Å“Â?鲜，5日与æœÂ?鲜人æ°”˜Ã¥” ”ºÃ¥Å“¨ä¹Œå±±é¦”“次交战〔š The link doesn’t work, so here’s the translated portion of the original text from Sina:

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]]> By: Kushibo http://cominganarchy.com/2005/12/06/the-new-allies/comment-page-1/#comment-54245 Kushibo Mon, 12 Dec 2005 02:52:01 +0000 http://www.cominganarchy.com/?p=1392#comment-54245 sun bin said: <b>the historic claim (and making it political) of some Chinese is silly. koguryo is an ancient country. there are 1-2M korea chinese. they are related. that is all they should/could say. but they went on to imply history with politics. i can understand why the koreans are not happy.</b> Given how these were semi-official utterances, it is very chilling. Japan makes claims on Mongolia, Xinjiang, Tibet, and Taiwan. Talking up KoguryÃ…Â?, which for those of you in Rio Linda, is one of Korea's so-called 且°Ã¥Å“”¹ (Three Kingdoms, with Paekche and Shilla) that covered much of Manchuria and all of what is now North Korea, as part of China sounds like a pretext for bringing former KoguryÃ…Â? territory back into the Middle Kingdom's fold. <b>yes, china no longer say Sout attacked first. </b> But they <i>do</i>. And this is just as bad as what some in the Japanese right wing do. Except China's utterances are more "official" (so far). <b>the publications and internet all agreed that North started the war. </b> <i>Official</i> Chinese publications and websites? <b>as for textbook, i think sonagi is probably right. they just left out that part in high school. </b> That's a major omission. Aren't secondary school textbooks in Japan a major bone of contention right now? <b>they can sort of justified in doing that since it is peripheral to what Chinese history is concerned.</b> Turn the tables and imagine those are Japanese talking about some major incident being "peripheral" to Japanese history and therefore it is justified to omit them. How would you react? China's actions led to the deaths of hundreds of thousands of Koreans, if not millions (I'm not blaming China for all the deaths). It also was a major confrontation in the "Cold War." So how can this be "peripheral" to Chinese history? <b>NK invaded under the encouragement of Stalin, China did not want to get involved. but was then forced into, by both McArthur and Stalin.</b> China gave a go-ahead. And they had Chinese soldiers ready to go long before MacArthur's forces ever came near the Yalu. <b>38th parallel: you know that is the bluff and official tone. </b> Maybe, maybe not. But the importance is that it shows how the PRC is laying out its sphere of influence. North Korea is in that sphere, and it will fight to keep that satellite. <b>but the real trigger was US army approaching China border and the bombing of Yaku bridges.</b> The Chinese were getting ready well before then. It was crossing the 38th and removing their buffer state that caused this. <b>when McArthur was removed, it was too late to stop the Chinese involvement.</b> They had TWO YEARS to depart a war it took only a few weeks to enter. Why didn't they, if their goal was just to keep the Americans away from invading China? <b>it it NOT clear that US will not use Korea as a launch pad (for KMT), many of the U2 took off or detour via S Korea in the 1960s for their reconassaince missions.</b> It is not clear or was not clear? If you're talking about the Korean War, well it's obvious from geography that the US wouldn't need to take off from North Korea to bomb Beijing. South Korea is closer to Shanghai than any part of North Korea. <b>there aren't much controversies in these facts. why are we debating about these?</b> Because your government denies them and teaches falsehoods about them. <b>again, where are the korean commentators?</b> If you want a native Korean-Korean, well I'm afraid that much of Coming Anarchy is outside the interest of most KKs. People who are knowledgeable about these issues AND who speak English quite well are usually too busy doing real work to discuss this. I, on the other hand, find these discussions stimulating, but that's because it's related to my work. sun bin said:
the historic claim (and making it political) of some Chinese is silly. koguryo is an ancient country. there are 1-2M korea chinese. they are related. that is all they should/could say. but they went on to imply history with politics. i can understand why the koreans are not happy.

Given how these were semi-official utterances, it is very chilling. Japan makes claims on Mongolia, Xinjiang, Tibet, and Taiwan. Talking up KoguryÃâ¦Ã?, which for those of you in Rio Linda, is one of Korea’s so-called äøâ°ÃÂ¥Ãââ¹ (Three Kingdoms, with Paekche and Shilla) that covered much of Manchuria and all of what is now North Korea, as part of China sounds like a pretext for bringing former KoguryÃâ¦Ã? territory back into the Middle Kingdom’s fold.

yes, china no longer say Sout attacked first.

But they do. And this is just as bad as what some in the Japanese right wing do. Except China’s utterances are more “official” (so far).

the publications and internet all agreed that North started the war.

Official Chinese publications and websites?

as for textbook, i think sonagi is probably right. they just left out that part in high school.

That’s a major omission. Aren’t secondary school textbooks in Japan a major bone of contention right now?

they can sort of justified in doing that since it is peripheral to what Chinese history is concerned.

Turn the tables and imagine those are Japanese talking about some major incident being “peripheral” to Japanese history and therefore it is justified to omit them. How would you react?

China’s actions led to the deaths of hundreds of thousands of Koreans, if not millions (I’m not blaming China for all the deaths). It also was a major confrontation in the “Cold War.” So how can this be “peripheral” to Chinese history?

NK invaded under the encouragement of Stalin, China did not want to get involved. but was then forced into, by both McArthur and Stalin.

China gave a go-ahead. And they had Chinese soldiers ready to go long before MacArthur’s forces ever came near the Yalu.

38th parallel: you know that is the bluff and official tone.

Maybe, maybe not. But the importance is that it shows how the PRC is laying out its sphere of influence. North Korea is in that sphere, and it will fight to keep that satellite.

but the real trigger was US army approaching China border and the bombing of Yaku bridges.

The Chinese were getting ready well before then. It was crossing the 38th and removing their buffer state that caused this.

when McArthur was removed, it was too late to stop the Chinese involvement.

They had TWO YEARS to depart a war it took only a few weeks to enter. Why didn’t they, if their goal was just to keep the Americans away from invading China?

it it NOT clear that US will not use Korea as a launch pad (for KMT), many of the U2 took off or detour via S Korea in the 1960s for their reconassaince missions.

It is not clear or was not clear? If you’re talking about the Korean War, well it’s obvious from geography that the US wouldn’t need to take off from North Korea to bomb Beijing. South Korea is closer to Shanghai than any part of North Korea.

there aren’t much controversies in these facts. why are we debating about these?

Because your government denies them and teaches falsehoods about them.

again, where are the korean commentators?

If you want a native Korean-Korean, well I’m afraid that much of Coming Anarchy is outside the interest of most KKs. People who are knowledgeable about these issues AND who speak English quite well are usually too busy doing real work to discuss this. I, on the other hand, find these discussions stimulating, but that’s because it’s related to my work.

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