Comments on: C’est magnifique, mais ce n’est pas la guerre (yet)

By: Norman Long

Norman Long — Tue, 08 Nov 2005 05:06:52 +0000

John Porter’s “Vertical Mosaic” led to an adoption of a “cultural mosaic”. It was thought better to coddle old world traditions than to have new arrivals fully embrace Anglo-Franco Canadianism. (I’m sorry, but I just stumbled on this site and I would like to expand further but I’m so interested right now in seeing what else it has to offer that I’ll have to come back and I don’t know how to save stuff).

By: Tiu Fu Fong

Tiu Fu Fong — Tue, 08 Nov 2005 01:42:33 +0000

Mark Steyn is great but Spengler is greater still.

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Front_Page/GK08Aa01.html

“There is no evidence in the public domain that Islamist radicals initiated the violence. Nonetheless, generals are chosen by their armies. The Grande Armee did not invade Russia because it was led by Napoleon Bonaparte; rather, Napoleon invaded Russia because he had half a million scavengers to lead, of whom only a tenth were French.

Albrecht von Wallenstein’s army did not mutiny against the Austrian throne because its field marshal wished to betray his masters; rather, Wallenstein betrayed Austria because he could not maintain his locust-horde and be loyal to Austria at the same time.

A vast army of young unemployed Muslims, estimated to reach 25 million in the Arab countries alone by 2010, stands at the disposal of the would-be Napoleons and Wallensteins of radical Islam, and they have no choice but to lead it. The outcome well might be a new Algerian War fought on French soil, with all the horrors that attended that conflict just half a century ago.”

By: GI Korea

GI Korea — Tue, 08 Nov 2005 00:09:51 +0000

It may have started as a quasi race riot but Muslim radicals and criminal elements IMHO are now using these riots to further their own agendas. If the criminals and Islamists can get even more concesions from the French in their neighborhoods such as no police patrolling or crackdowns then it is better for both the Islamists terrorist recruiting operations and the criminals drug and crime operations.

Either way if this a quasi race riot or an organized Intafadah they are still committing criminal activity and I would still shoot them dead in the street without a second thought if they came to my house to burn it down.

By: davesgonechina

davesgonechina — Mon, 07 Nov 2005 21:29:58 +0000

ah there it is. Ladies and Gentlemen, Alfred Thayer Mahan.

By: davesgonechina

davesgonechina — Mon, 07 Nov 2005 21:13:41 +0000

ok, I got a gravatar. Is it working?

By: tdaxp

tdaxp — Mon, 07 Nov 2005 19:21:35 +0000

The European Dream, by Jeremy Rifkin

Jeremy Rifkin’s “The European Dream: Europe Reaps the Whirlwind,” with a New Chapter by the Author: “Dhimmitude for Dummies”

Combining two photos from South Dakota Politics about the French riots with an earlier tdaxp pic, I present the future …

By: Curzon

Curzon — Mon, 07 Nov 2005 19:02:53 +0000

I agree with Dave — it is akin to a US race, not a proto-caliphate. That being said, this is fertile ground for Al Qaeda to recruit, and has long been so.

By: davesgonechina

davesgonechina — Mon, 07 Nov 2005 18:59:45 +0000

Snow, this has nothing to do with jihadists or fascists. It’s a string of riots, not an organized insurrection. And the muslims in France have no interest in fascism. All they talk about is how much fun it is to set a car on fire, they’re unemployed and they’re marginalized. Sounds just like an American race riot. Mark Steyn’s comparison to the Moors is ridiculous.

If you want to see fascism in France, look to Le Pen, not the muslims.

By: Mike

Mike — Mon, 07 Nov 2005 17:56:43 +0000

Now that someone has been killed, there may not be any hope for a peaceful solution…the disorder is too threatening to the state and questions its credibility to defend its citizens (since, as someone rightly pointed out, the French don’t have guns to defend themselves). At this point, with a major French Muslim group having issued a Fatwa against the rioting, it’s getting harder for me to push the conciliatory method…especially since it seems to just keep spreading.

By: Chief Wiggum

Chief Wiggum — Mon, 07 Nov 2005 17:25:59 +0000

News reports I heard this morning say the French muslim intifada has spread to 300 cities, and that there have been incidents of “copy-cat” car-burnings in Belgium and Germany.

On 11-6-05, the great Mark Steyn wrote:
Wake up, Europe, you’ve a war on your hands

November 6, 2005

BY MARK STEYN SUN-TIMES COLUMNIST

Ever since 9/11, I’ve been gloomily predicting the European powder keg’s about to go up. ”By 2010 we’ll be watching burning buildings, street riots and assassinations on the news every night,” I wrote in Canada’s Western Standard back in February. Silly me. The Eurabian civil war appears to have started some years ahead of my optimistic schedule. As Thursday’s edition of the Guardian reported in London: ”French youths fired at police and burned over 300 cars last night as towns around Paris experienced their worst night of violence in a week of urban unrest.”

I understand the French government’s “go-slow” approach to this. They are hoping this problem will somehow just go away. It won’t, but maybe it will run out of steam and make possible another chance to solve or mitigate this through the political process.

I’ve read that although there are 6 millions muslims in France, about 10% of the population, there is not one muslim member of parliament, nor any muslim mayor of any French city or town. This suggests the powers that be want to keep them out of the political process. This does not augur well for any kind of a quick fix.

By: ElamBend

ElamBend — Mon, 07 Nov 2005 16:49:42 +0000

Chirol,
Such a situation existed during the LA riots, when the Marines were required to escort Firefighters and operated on a return all fire immediately policy. The attacks finished quickly. Likewise, vandalism seem to have been focused only on unguarded commercial properties as homes might be defended by gun owners and some commercial properties (famously) were defended by gun owners.

By: Chirol

Chirol — Mon, 07 Nov 2005 16:37:27 +0000

GI Korea: As a gun owner and lover, I agree with you on the right to bear arms, however, don’t forget that it could also make the situation considerably more dangerous, for civilians and the police as criminals would more readily have access to firears. It’s a tricky subject, but as you, if the same happened in my neighborhood in the US, I wouldn’t think twice about putting my weapon to good use.

By: GI Korea

GI Korea — Mon, 07 Nov 2005 13:26:00 +0000

I think this is a perfect example of why citizens should have the right to bear arms. The criminals rioting have guns and are shooting the policemen and the firemen while the people who’s buildings and cars are getting burned down cannot do anything. If some thugs tried to come to my home town back in America and burn people’s cars and homes the thugs would be shot dead in the street and nobody would think twice about it.

That is what the French need to do. Put out an order of martial law by a certain time and if they are still out burning cars shoot them. They had fair warning. If the French don’t respond toughly to this these Muslim radicals will only make more demands, that is how terrorism works. And yes I think this is a form of terrorism.

By: felipe the latinlover

felipe the latinlover — Mon, 07 Nov 2005 12:59:04 +0000

I think so many years of “politically correct” have screw france like the rest of europe, i think the goverment should put a iron hand of those kids, because is more like vandalism and anarchy thant social injustice or discrimination. if they protester was fighting agianst a dictator is think would be acceptable the riot, bue francea democratic country with some problems yeah but that no the excuse to destroy the car of the rest of the people and destroy half of the city

By: snow

snow — Mon, 07 Nov 2005 11:26:18 +0000

11 days of rioting is quite a shocking thing. I think we have to be careful before indicting multiculturalism as the ‘fall-guy’ for all this. We have to be careful not to blame the victim (peaceful French citizens, just as so many blamed America for 9/11) and place blame squarely where it belongs-on lawless thugs (jihadist influence?) committing crimes. At the same time, it seems to me that multiculturalism has played a part in enabling such a bad situation to develop.

I just hope that it might convince more Europeans that the appeasement of fascist elements doesn’t spare them from violence.

And if the French clamp down hard, hopefully some will see that America’s not so out of line on security. After all, the French have long known when and how to be strong and nasty, when necessary. Anti-Americans ignore that fact that many countries know how to fight dirty when the going gets rough.

By: davesgonechina

davesgonechina — Mon, 07 Nov 2005 07:52:27 +0000

It wasn’t a mayor who called the rioters “scum”, it was the interior minister Nicholas Sarkozy. I don’t really know French politics well, but I do know Sarkozy supported the formation of Conseil franÃ�Æ�Ã�Â§ais du culte musulman since there was no broker for French Muslims to engage the government, and amending the 1905 law on separation of church and state to more easily publicly fund mosques and other public muslim organizations. (thanks wikipedia. He’s no Le Pen, that’s for sure, but beyond that I’m not sure what to make of the guy. He’s made other remarks as well.

I’ve heard French people make snide remarks about all the racism in the U.S. for years, so part of me gets some evil pleasure out of this. I think this isn’t comparable to the riots of DC or LA in the 90s; this is like the race riots of the early 60s – 1964 it was New York (6 days), Rochester(2), Jersey City(3), Paterson(3), Elizabeth(3), Chicago(2) and Philadelphia(3) over late July and August. France is dealing with a similar coming to grips with institutional racism. Send them books on the civil rights movement, now we get to lecture them on LibertÃ�Æ�Ã�Â©, Ã�Æ�â��Â°galitÃ�Æ�Ã�Â©, and FraternitÃ�Æ�Ã�Â©.

By: lirelou

lirelou — Mon, 07 Nov 2005 07:23:33 +0000

An old rumour which may only be partially true: Back in the midst f the 1968 student riots, DeGaulle slipped off to Baden Baden to confer with GEN Jacques Massu, then commanding the First French Army. Would the Army back the President?. Of course, the General assured him, the Army always supported the elected President of France. However, there was a small matter of some very fine career officers and NCOs living in exile, or completing sentences in various French prisons, for their activities in opposition to DeGaulle’s Algeria policies. The Army would certainly be far more favourable to the idea if these officers and NCOs could be pardoned. DeGaulle returned to Paris confident that the Army would back him, and some true heroes of France were given reprieves and allowed to return home. The irony, of course, is that DeGaulle was correct in his assessment that a French pan-Mediterranian nation was not in France’s interest. The French Army of today is quite different from the Army of 1968, and is evolving into a fully professional force. If it is ordered into the streets, it will be interesting to see the results, particularly since they do not train for such a role, as does the U.S. National Guard..

By: Pavlov3

Pavlov3 — Mon, 07 Nov 2005 06:34:45 +0000

If you look for a common thread, Police trying to calm people down with a hands off approach extended each of the riots. It seems the good people looting, burning shops at random and pelting police are emboldened by such foolishness. I am not saying to massacre the idiots, but if someone shoots at police and firefighters, shoot him, record the incident and move on.
—
I have all the sympathy in the world for someone peacefully protest, but torch a school or local shop and you are as one mayor un-politically put it “scum”. Which of course was the excuse for the next night’s riot.

By: Curzon

Curzon — Mon, 07 Nov 2005 05:57:17 +0000

…which lasted three days. And the DC riots lasted two nights, the LA riots five (at most). 11 days is something else entirely (and it’s not for a lack of trying to lay down the law).

The DC and LA riots are what made Kaplan write what he wrote in the Coming Anarchy, only to take it back in 2005 (”I was wrong.”)

By: Joe

Joe — Mon, 07 Nov 2005 05:39:24 +0000

Don’t forget the Cincinnati riots of 2001…

By: adamu

adamu — Mon, 07 Nov 2005 05:21:37 +0000

OK, so there are some riots going on in France — this means the French system is suddenly a failure? No, I don’t think so. The French government needs to put these riots down HARD and then get to the bottom of them and learn the lessons of where policy has been going wrong.

11ish days of rioting is pretty insane, but that comment about “what if it were DC?” made me think — it really COULD be DC pretty easily.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Washington%2C_DC_Riot_1991

This wasn’t that long ago, and the LA riots happened the next year.

By: ElamBend

ElamBend — Mon, 07 Nov 2005 04:59:31 +0000

Many saw this coming, if in not this form; then another. However, no solace may be taken in such a prediction now that it has come to fruition. One can only hope that those rioting can find a kind of catharsis that will temper their angry spirits and that those charged with defending our civilization will find the will to do so, not just with sword but with head and heart.

By: Mike

Mike — Mon, 07 Nov 2005 03:59:06 +0000

It’s getting worse:

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/11/07/international/europe/07france.html?

By: Mike

Mike — Mon, 07 Nov 2005 03:50:21 +0000

There’s nothing good about the riots, although I agree with you, Curzon, that it shows that dissatisfaction and anger among muslims is not solely the fault of the US. The French, by the letter, have a wonderful ideal of citizenship, color and race blind, but now we see how limited the power of that ideal is when there’s no underlying cultural bond to cement it. That worries me, and it should worry everybody. It does not bode well for the American effort to build a secular democracy in Iraq, and it bodes very, very, poorly for the European Union…the worst thing that could happen is the crackdown that Sarkozy wants. Certainly people are frustrated and I would be boiling over if my car had been burned, but the backlash it would produce would be both larger and more heated than what’s already happening. This event is certainly creating more visible differences between de Villepin and Sarkozy. I think the poet’s got the better of it, though. This isn’t something that can be solved quickly or easily, so damage control is the best course of action for the time being.

By: Pavlov3

Pavlov3 — Mon, 07 Nov 2005 03:04:24 +0000

I agree with some reports, France is experiencing a Civil war of sorts. Not the kind with pitched battles that will leave thousands dead, but the kind that will force a French reaction; appease the muslim minority or restore order.
I fear France will choose the apeasement path as they have for the past few decades. It will not slake the thirst of the thugs and extremists, it will only encourage them. I hope I am wrong, perhaps France might find a Corsican in these times who might calm things with a “whiff of grape”?
Call me cold hearted, but if you shoot at police and throw fire bombs, I might shoot for the legs, but I would still be shooting.