Entry details

Curzon
Author

Curzon

Date

November 3rd, 2005

Tags

,

Comments

52 Comments so far.
Add yours.

Pinned: America’s Taiwan Policy

In chess, a pin is a situation in which a piece is forced to stay put because moving it would expose a more valuable piece behind it to capture. In effect, pinned pieces are blocking a check on a king or blocking an attack on a more valuable piece.

In the above situation, white’s bishop cannot take the knight without being taken by black’s pawn. And black’s knight cannot move because doing so would expose the king (an illegal move). It is a stalement.

New thought: consider these three rules about the status quo in Taiwan:

  • China cannot attack Taiwan.
  • Taiwan cannot declare independence.
  • The US cannot allow either of these to happen.

The situation can be analogized as such:

The US is the watching Taiwan with the chess board and has control of the black knight. What do you do? Chill out. Just wait. Pro-independence President Chen barely won reelection by a slim margin; Taiwan’s foreign policy is imploding; the opposition party is taking trips to China; and cultural and economic ties are growing by leaps and bounds. But this won’t happen tomorrow—polls say 87% of Taiwanese think cross-strait dialogue can be possible only if both sides are equal, and 77% says China must implement democratization before they even talk about reunification. We need patience.

Kaplan caused a stir in the blogosphere when he wrote about a new cold war with China; Barnett has done the same with his BookTV debate on Sunday for his comments on Taiwan (noted by Younghusband here, Joe of MF here, and also here, here, here, here, and here).

China and the U.S. have very few competing interests, other than our strange, still-on-the-books promise to defend Taiwan at all costs (which should be jettisoned immediately.) We have no competing interests in the South China Sea. That’s China and Japan acting like children over a resource pool they must logically share.

China “acting like children” you say? What makes you think they’ll be different with a vulnerable Taiwan?

Politically, abandoning Taiwan is akin to pulling out of Somalia when we lost 19 soldiers. The Japanese and Koreans will see the US dump its defense promises whenever its politically convenient, and go ape. Tokyo will get nuclear weapons within 6 months.

Militarily, what are the worst case scenarios for a Taiwan invasion? In retaliation, Taiwan could strike Shanghai, Hong Kong, and the Three Gorges Dam with missiles and wreck the Chinese economy; if fought to a bloody draw (not impossible), spiteful leaders could launch nuclear ICBMs at the island. (Unlikely you say? We have no idea what desperate generals might do. Who wants to risk it?) It’s too terrifying to consider, and I’d rather listen to adults than Barnett’s economic determinist fantasy land.

As noted before, Barnett doesn’t get East Asian security—it’s the equivalent of your kid brother coming up to the chess board and saying, “black, just resign and let’s go make lunch already!” It’s pretty sad when a lazy law student can articulate better foreign policy than a “military strategy consultant,” “author of the groundbreaking bestseller,” with “cutting-edge analysis.”

Dr. Barnett: you’re usually pretty good about reviewing reviews, so why not try this argument on for size?

DISCLAIMER: The contributors at ComingAnarchy.com have differing opinions of Dr. Barnett and his work—the views expressed here are mine, not that of Chirol or Younghusband.

Comments to this entry

Peter
November 3, 2005
5:01 pm
I completely agree - it's a stalemate. Barnett isn't considering the complexity of East Asian security as a whole. China has threatened to not cooperate in the North Korean six-party talks if America doesn't lax its backing of Taiwan. Only time will cause the situation to change, to allow some of the other pieces to move around the board. I am concerned, however, at Taiwan's waning influence. Ideologically, I support Taiwan. To see a free society get absorbed by a dictatorial regime is saddening.
Saru
November 3, 2005
5:04 pm
"We have no competing interests in the South China Sea. That's China and Japan acting like children over a resource pool they must logically share."


Apparently his geography isn't any better than his foreign policy thinking. China and Japan are arguing over resource pools in the _East_ China Sea.
Saru
November 3, 2005
5:07 pm
Peter said: "Only time will cause the situation to change, to allow some of the other pieces to move around the board."

Yup. Curzon, excellent anaolgy in the 4x4 square, but maybe there should be pawns edging towards both ends of the board as well.
Peter
November 3, 2005
5:08 pm
Apparently his geography isn't any better than his foreign policy thinking. China and Japan are arguing over resource pools in the East China Sea.

Barnett schooled by Saru! w00t!
sun bin
November 3, 2005
5:09 pm
No, wrong analogy.

chess pieces are tangible bodies, not abstract 'defense' 'attack' concept.

Taiwan is the knight.
China is the king. (in fact, you can change it into a bishop as well)
US is the bishop.

Not touching or moving Taiwan is called status quo.
Joe
November 3, 2005
5:19 pm
From the end of that NewsHour interview you linked to, Curzon:

MARGARET WARNER: What is the worst case scenario [for the Hainan spyplane], Dr. Brzezinski, if it isn't handled right by either side?

ZBIGNIEW BRZEZINSKI: First of all I want to be understood as not recommending that either the president or the secretary of state phone now. I think it should have been done. I think some of the other mechanisms that I have mentioned might be useful. What I'm concerned about is that the more belligerent elements in China dig in their heels, keep insisting that this was a U.S. fault and, for example, charge the pilot with negligent homicide or their legal equivalent of that. And on our side, that people in Congress begin to go berserk and, for example, do several things: One, pile weapons upon weapons for Taiwan, including those which are the most sensitive and would immediately aggravate the American-Chinese relationship. Secondly, the trade negotiations; the trade relationship will come up for a vote. There will be calls for using that as a form of sanction on the Chinese. I believe already Jim mentioned the question of the Olympics. So there's a whole series of acts we can undertake that would worsen the relationship and at stake is not only the American-Chinese relationship. It's also American-Japanese relationship because it would be affected; and more generally, stability in the Far East.

MARGARET WARNER: Brief final comment from you, Dr. Kissinger, the danger of this worst case scenario?

HENRY KISSINGER: I think there is this danger, but I believe that with responsible conduct on both sides, this issue can be ended and we shouldn't imagine that it will be driven out of control. I don't believe the Chinese will do the things which they can do, and I don't think we should do the things that have been threatened. The Chinese will not be able to extract a formal apology for the presence of the American plane, but they can... we can show understanding for the human and material suffering that has been caused, whoever is at fault it will be found to have been.
sun bin
November 3, 2005
5:21 pm
(i agree with the stalemate conclusion though.)

but your critique on Barnett still has a lot of flaws. (we already discussed about the 'what would korea' think argument so let's disagree there)

tokyo will get nukes regardless of what you do. because they can get it when they want it. they have the capability and it is not difficult to do so at all. Norks has been their excuse. now they are probably going to use china as the excuse.
The only way to delay/stop this from happening is not by appeasing tokyo, but "take away their plutonium":http://sun-bin.blogspot.com/2005/09/two-birds-with-one-stone-how-to-solve.html when US is still relatively powerful.
Joe
November 3, 2005
5:22 pm
Oh, and if nuking North Korea is "better foreign policy," I'm glad our foreign policy is shit.
ElamBend
November 3, 2005
5:48 pm
Here, here.

Yes, this is the status quo, but the status quo in this instance is not stasis. The two countries are becoming more and more intertwined, culturally and economically; as well Chine is more and more intertwined with us economically. China might not get exactly result it wants, but like Mao said, "Hold your friends close and your enemies closer." [forgive me for quoting Mao]
As China grows wealthier through trade, the prospect of a war becomes more and more unpalatable to those with the wealth (not necesarily those in the military power structure). Wealthy nations have foolishly gone to war before (see Europe), but usually that is because something upset the status quo.
I agree with Curzon, we should stay the course on this one.
mark safranski
November 3, 2005
6:07 pm
While I would not blithely toss Taiwan overboard, *Taipei cannot be the driver in the decision on whether the U.S. and China go to war* delegating that kind of decision-making power to a tiny state's most irresponsible politician who happens to get elected is little short of insane.

Who is the patron and who is the client here anyway ? Even Israel and Great Britain - our closest NATO ally - aren't given that kind of imprimatur by the United States. Nor is South Korea, Australia or anyplace else.

If Taiwan wishes to depend on an American defense then they can accept our parameters. If not, then they can try managing on their own by building a first class military power.
sun bin
November 3, 2005
6:13 pm
I agree with Mark. In the analogy, Taiwan is a pawn (or knight), not the King.
Younghusband
November 3, 2005
7:41 pm
That is what I think I was suggesting in my last post: why is Taiwan the King? I think in all reality we are pinned in the situation, and nobody wants to act first. Kind of like a prisoner's dilemma with no perceptible time limit. It is better to wait it out and hope for some change than to make a move, unless _the other guy_ makes a move first.

So in all reality, maybe a warning to Taipei to cool it, while telling China to back off and wait for liberlisation is the only smart thing to do here.
Curzon
November 3, 2005
7:56 pm
Joe: Touche -- "but see this follow-up.":http://www.cominganarchy.com/2005/05/04/second-take/

Younghusband & Sun Bin: Mine is but one simple analogy -- yours are also most valid.

Mark: You make it sound as if Taiwan is clamoring for war, when in truth they want the status quo with slow liberalization and respect for Taiwan's security. "See opinion poll linked above:":http://english.www.gov.tw/Yearbook/index.jsp?categid=155&recordid=83250

Those supporting independence or unification as soon as possible accounted for only 7.2 and 2.0 percent, respectively, a result consistent with past polls... the same poll showed that 74.4 percent of respondents supported "conditional liberalization," which means direct transportation links between the two sides should only be established after Taiwan's security and dignity, and the principle of parity have been taken into account.


Taiwan has a nutty elected president who threatens their national security, and other countries should do their best to ignore him -- "sound familiar?":http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roh_Moo-hyun
larry
November 3, 2005
7:59 pm
Taiwan has virtually given up its independence by buying in on China's 9% growth rate instead of buying USA. The defensive weapons from the USA that Taiwan tossed off as not logical proved this. They had their chance now they can only maintain their don't ask don't tell policy of engagement. The USA navy is now docked in mainland China. While this would be a handy place to battle a Chinese invasion of Taiwan, it also makes the possibility of battle less likely, to say the least.
Taiwan's only hope is that the USA's effort to Democratize China will ultimately win. At the moment this is not working out that great because the war against radical Islamists is being underwritten, in a large part, by China. Also if the way Wal-Mart treats their people in the USA is even a partial indication on how they treat the people of China, our corporate drive into China is anything but democratic looking. As Wal-Mart looks for ways to cut cost at the bottom most defenseless people, their coffers are becoming fuller for the top. Democracy is at least partially about equality. The people at the bottom need some type of mechanism to offset the power at the top. They don't need much, but they do need some. This is true in China as well as the USA.
I believe Japan finally understands Taiwan's virtual loss of independence ("Not touching or moving Taiwan is called status quo,"Â? Sun Bin) and does not want to see the same thing happening in its future. The next 6-years should be interesting for those watching Japan. The USA had to find a way to Penetrate Korea and Japan is, in no small part, that penetration.
Daniel Nexon
November 3, 2005
8:14 pm
Dude, if war was a matter of the rational calculation of states about costs and benefits, "they would almost never happen.":http://duckofminerva.blogspot.com/2005/07/rising-powers-war-and-economists.html
Paul H.
November 3, 2005
8:26 pm
Larry your economic determinism argument is somewhat convoluted IMO (what's Walmart got to do with the issue of whether Taiwan is attacked by China or not)?

However, you're right to imply that there are powerful economic reasons that China should not attack Taiwan. But if the PRC ever does so, I predict it will be for non-economic reasons (ie related to an internal crisis within the PRC and the need for Communist rulers to present the people with a nationalist distraction).

The Argentine invasion of the Falklands is an analogy.

As for myself, my fervor to provide Taiwan with a "blank check" commitment to help them against a Chinese attack was considerably lessened by the recent sight of the leader of the Kuomintang shaking hands with whatever PRC dignitary it was recently! What a historical spectacle.

Also I gather there is considerable resistance within Taiwanese political circles to increasing their defense budget for needed new various systems to protect against the steadily building threat from the mainland. I guess the idea is "Uncle Sam will take care of it if it happens so let's save our money for something else".
davesgonechina
November 3, 2005
11:10 pm
Here is my two cents on Kaplan vs. Barnett... not sure if the trackback worked.
larry
November 4, 2005
12:18 am
Paul H, I was just suggesting Taiwan has virtually lost its independence and should hope for a Democratic China. In that light, I believe the deciding factor whither China becomes Democratic or not has a lot to do with Wal-Mart and its relationship with the people of China.
I have heard that the relationship between the people of China and their government is very brittle. While we (corporate America, Wal-Mart) seem to work well with their government, I am not so sure that our relationship with their people is all that good. I believe that this is the internal crisis you were talking about.
The people of Taiwan are delusional if they think Uncle Sam will take care of them without their support, you know, Taiwan, "buy"Â? weapons for defense and such as that. Sarcastically speaking, in America nothing smells more like freedom than those big government defense contracts. But then that decision is, or was, up to the people of Taiwan, it is not ours to make. We only have to decide to fight China or not. To me that decision has already been made.
Cullen Masterson
November 4, 2005
1:17 am
Not a stalemate. And important info is omitted. Who's move is it?

If Black, he can move his king to d7, double protecting the Kt. On his next move, he can break the pin and begin advancing his pawn. If the Pawn can reach b1, it will promote to a Queen. Then Black can win outright by Checkmate.

If White is to move, his choices are d3 or e4 for his King. The Kt. prevents the more direct e4, which would save a move. White must threaten to win the Knight and Pawn outright ... which he cannot ... But by delaying and threatening, he can strive to gain the "Opposition" and after an eventual exchange of Bishop for Kt. - prevent the Pawn from Queening.

Black also must strive to gain the Opposition. For an illustration of gaining the Opposition and its importance in a Win vs. Draw, see Wikipedia:

"In endgames that involve only kings and pawns, the concept of opposition is important: by moving to a square which is horizontally, vertically or diagonally two squares away from the enemy king, one "gains" the opposition. This is an advantage, because it forces the enemy king to give way."

Wikipedia Illustration:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Chess_endgame_king_before_pawn.png

Wikipedia Illustration's Caption:

"Moving her king to d5, white gains the opposition and
wins the game. All other moves result in a draw."

In actual chess, your opponent will not have the infallible skill of a Bobbie Fischer or even IBM's Big Blue. As long as there is play left, and options open, opportunities may arise. Outright mistakes and poor choices can lead to unexpected victory. Continue and persevere.
David
November 4, 2005
9:45 am
I agree with your basic premise ('just wait'), but think your analogy mischaracterises the situation: The US is the one ensuring a stalemate - not the one that is pinned.

I am very suspicious of anybody who's position on Taiwan is driven completely by overall strategic thinking. Barnett wants to sacrifice Taiwan because he views China as an ally, while the reverse position wants to protect Taiwan because it views China as an enemy ... both positions completely fail to even look at the complex issues in Taiwan and of Taiwanese-Chinese relations.

Here's an idea: Define a policy on Taiwan. Separately define a policy on China. Because there is obvious overlap of the two, tweak the two to make them consistent - but don't let either policy define the other. It's perfectly possible to be a strong defender of Taiwan while still engaging China and building an alliance; it's equally possible to decide 'Taiwan isn't worth it' while remaining suspicious of China.

A couple of random other points:
Barnett loves to say that the TRA is a promise to 'defend Taiwan at all costs' - which is complete garbage. The TRA is a deliberately vague policy which lets the US justify whatever decision it deems best at the time.

Curzon (and a couple of others) said:
Taiwan has a nutty elected president who threatens their national security
This seems to be a common belief - and it shows a complete lack of understanding of Taiwanese politics. Although he likes a bit of tub-thumping rhetoric as much as the next man, as president Chen has repeatedly promised not to do any of the things that China don't want him to: declare independence, change the flag or national borders. Of course he's pro-independence - but he's a lot more moderate about it that most of his colleagues in the DPP/TSU. One of the reasons for this (apart from the obvious not wanting to get blown to bits thing) is that the Taiwanese electorate wouldn't have elected a more extreme candidate ... remember that it's Taiwan that's the biggest loser (not China or the US) in the event of a war (whatever the outcome). You don't have to trust Chen completely, but show a little trust in the Taiwanese people not to elect a complete loon!
Michael Turton
November 4, 2005
1:03 pm
I can only echo David. Chen's behavior has been extremely circumspect and pragmatic. This comment

Taiwan has a nutty elected president who threatens their national security

is especially laughable, especially since my own President has insanely committed one of the most criminally stupid blunders in modern foreign policy history in that illegal and immoral invasion of Iraq, and running up the biggest debt in human history to pay for it. Chen has nothing on that.

Further, such a comment also says that the people surrounding Chen are nutters as well. Nonsense. The top DPP people have beaten the candidate supported by both the US and China in the local elections twice now. Those guys know exactly what they are doing.

Quite the opposite -- Taiwan has cleverly used the US to manage China and keep destruction at arms length. I have suggested before that the US is a tail that thinks it is the dog, and I see no reason to change that analysis.

Also I gather there is considerable resistance within Taiwanese political circles to increasing their defense budget for needed new various systems to protect against the steadily building threat from the mainland. I guess the idea is "Uncle Sam will take care of it if it happens so let's save our money for something else"Â?.

This should be informed by a more robust understanding of the situation.

*The submarines are useless against an invasion, will arrive over a decade, and cost three times the usual world price. No deterrent or military effect. Taiwan requested them repeatedly and was rebuffed by every administration until Bush Lite approved them in 2001. They are pre-eminently offensive, not defensive weapons. Submariners always wink and say that the best weapon to hunt a sub with is another sub, which is true -- but cuts both ways. The Chinese have more subs than Taiwan, and neither side has much experience or tradition of sub warfare. Under those conditions, victory will likely go to the side with the most subs.

*The Kidd class destroyers are fat targets in a war. The local Navy did not want them. They can only be ported in one harbor on the far coast, and their weapons are a generation out of date. They too will have neither a deterrant effect nor a military one.

*The Anti-submarine aircraft in the package are useful but can only function if Taiwan owns the air. Since it likely will not, they are also essentially targets.

*The only truly useful item in the package is the Patriots, and there are not enough in the purchase.

*The good stuff, such as the Paladin mobile artillery, has already been purchased and delivered.

The arms package is a rip-off foisted on Taiwan. What the island needs is fighters and 00s of them. No invasion has ever been stopped or succeeded because of submarines; the key factor is almost always control of the air. If the $12 billion was spent on aircraft and training, Taiwan would be well protected. At the moment only reason to purchase these weapons is to pay the bus fare for protection, as former President Lee Teng-hui observed.

While I would not blithely toss Taiwan overboard, Taipei cannot be the driver in the decision on whether the U.S. and China go to war delegating that kind of decision-making power to a tiny state's most irresponsible politician who happens to get elected is little short of insane.

Taipei is not the driver. The driver is the political calculus in Tokyo and Washington and Beijing. The idea that Taiwan is going to provoke a war is laughable; the KMT certainly isn't going to declare independence, and no DPP politician can. Ultimately Beijing may well decide to invade Taipei without any ostensible provocation, for reasons of its own internal making, much as Japan insanely decided to widen its China War to include the US, the UK, and the Netherlands in 1941, even though that was utterly irrational.

In other words, it is kind of silly to write about this as if Beijing was just the helpless recipient, the victim of Taiwanese decisions. Reality is the other way around. The madmen sit in Beijing and point missiles at Taiwan, and declare that they will plunge Asia into war and murder thousands of its own people and foreigners to prevent the world from formally ratifying what is currently a fact: that Taiwan is independent of Beijing. In other words, part of the calculus depends on Beijing's view of its own national honor. And I submit that murdering people to save your national honor is a hell of lot nuttier than wanting to live in a democratic and independent state free from the rule of faraway authoritarians.

Michael
Curzon
November 4, 2005
1:50 pm
David & Michael: How do we define pragmatism and good foreign policy? (I hear similar statements from Roh's supporter.) But both Roh and Chen believe their nations are the "balancers" that can define the actions of the other powers in the region -- which really, really pisses everyone else off. Chen's actions, even if you think they're wise and strategic, are losing Taiwan many erstwhile supporters in the US.

Michael: What about the AEGIS destroyers?
Paul H.
November 4, 2005
3:18 pm
Disagree about the uselessness for Taiwan of new submarines and the Kidd-class destroyers. One reason for the extended delay is because the US doesn't manufacture non-nuke subs and the Euros who do (Dutch and Germans) have been reluctant to deal. Admit I don't know the latest developments in this area (an obscure subject in US media reports).

Also I would guess that the electronics and critical systems on the destroyers could be upgraded to state of the art. It's key to have multiple "layers" or "dimensions" of defense and right now Taiwan mainly depends on air and coastal fortifications/ troops.

It depends on how you see a potential war going. I think a useful historical model is the German invasion of Crete (May 1941) which was meant to be a lightning stroke. Interesting to study because the Germans had almost complete air superiority while the Royal Navy had almost complete naval superiority in the local waters.

The parachute assault succeeded (barely; the Germans parachutists suffered extremely heavy casualties). Almost forgotten is the fact that the German attempt to send seaborne troops was completely blown out of the water by the Royal Navy in spite of the German air superiority.

You're right that the chief deterrent currently is the Taiwanese air force (US F16's, how many?) but I think the mainland would go to extraordinary lengths to knock out the airfields with ballistic missile attack (to include possible use of persistent chemical agents).

PRC probably wouldn't want to seize the whole island outright (too difficult), just grab one or more beachheads and/or "airheads" (parachute troops) quickly, before the US fleet can get there. Then call for negotiations with Taiwan while warning the US to stay out of "internal" Chinese affairs.

If they were to succeed in this limited objective quickly, the US President would be faced with a terrible dilemma; whether arriving US forces should open fire on PRC forces in/above the straits and the island. It's not at all clear to me that a future US President would be willing to make this extraordinary decision, if the Taiwanese forces have not previously acquitted themselves well and if the PRC has already unilaterally ceased fire based on gains to date while calling for negotiations.

Seems clear to me from what I know about the PRC buildup across the straits that this scenario must be the main PRC plan (rather than a protracted campaign of conquest of the entire island).

And not to mention the further danger of US forces taking conventional fire/ direct attack from the mainland itself, once a hypothetical US counterattack has begun -- an attack from the mainland that could necessitate a US military need to respond conventionally. Probably wouldn't happen due to the political risk even if a US surface vessel had been hit by mass attack from such fire (ie saturation attack from shore-based "Sunburn" sea skimmer missiles).

It would be a lot better for everyone if there is less doubt that the Taiwanese can take care of their own (albeit limited) naval defense. Even the purchase of a hundred more fighters for air defense wouldn't help if the airfields are knocked out; this doesn't have to be done by PRC air force if PRC uses dozens of ballistic missiles. This must be the reason for the long-term build-up of these missiles across from Taiwan (they're not there to rain destruction on the Taiwanese populace IMO, and conventional & chemical warhead ballistic missiles are no good against a moving fleet out to sea).

BTW, I think Taiwan has only 4 old diesel subs (1950's era US models? not sure) currently. Probably a strain to keep even one of these at sea continuously, they need to at least double the deployed forces (by purchase of up to date new conventional subs) and then be able to sortie the others at very short notice.

Primary mission; attack PRC sea line of communictions (troop and supply carrying ships). Backed up by pending arrival of US subs. Leaves US carriers free to stand off well to sea on the far side of the island and concentrate on maintaining/ regaining air superiority over the island itself.
Paul H.
November 4, 2005
3:46 pm
Also: "...No invasion has ever been stopped or succeeded because of submarines..."

Maybe not, but submarines can sure degrade the ability to sustain such an invasion, especially because detecting them is still an very difficult task, now that they can operate continously submerged.

One example: British submarines operating in the Med against Rommel's supply lines from Italy 1941-42. A lot of his replacement tanks/equipment/POL got sunk before he could get it.
David
November 4, 2005
4:20 pm
Curzon, What policies did you have a problem with? My view is that his policies have been reasonably moderate (to the point where he has got a lot of criticism from the more hardcore supporters for 'selling them out on independence issues') - but the problem is communication. One of Chen's biggest failings (at least in his first 4 years) was terrible lack of communication with the US. He failed to explain to the US government his policies, and they failed to communicate their views.

From a Taiwanese perspective, the idea that Chen can influence US policy (or even more extremely China policy) is just bizarre. Taiwanese analysts spend their time poring over every little word from the US to deduce what US policy really is - and so how to adapt Taiwan policy.

Taiwan doesn't understand US policy, and US doesn't understand Taiwan policy, so no, I'd say Chen's execution of foreign policy has been poor. But his main policies are in line with public opinion and it's ridiculous to call them nutty.
sun bin
November 4, 2005
5:32 pm
1. agree with Michael's comments on arms deal.
Paul, while you have good points, you need to consider the geography around Taiwan to understand why subs does work. e.g. the strait is shallow, 400x150km, subs are easily searched there. when a sub is exposed, it is just a defenseless boat. taiwan strait is not north sea or the atlantics. -- of you have played computer games like "strategic conquest" you would know what i mean.

2. about chen shui-bian. i can only agree with 70% of what michael said. while being careful, Chen repeated pushed the envelop. if US and mainland were not so aggressive, he would definitely push it further.
Chen's cabinet is not entirely competent. (i mean mainly those he handpicked). there was a learning process since they never ruled b4. but this is his second term already.
his "PM" has been changed more frequently than that in Japan/Italy, due to scandal/etc.
Just look at "pasuya yao":http://jujuflop.yule.org/2005/10/26/poor-old-pasuya
sun bin
November 4, 2005
5:41 pm
yes, calling Chen 'nutty' is an exaggeration. :)

about david's idea.
since China is so much bigger than Taiwan, to conduct his analysis i suspect you would most likely reach Barnett's conclusion. (when you 'tweak them' to make them consistent you would find it you end up tweaking the smaller one, you know, like tying a truck to a bike.)
Paul H.
November 4, 2005
7:28 pm
Haven't played the games so I have to defer to you there. Also I don't know the depth of the straits, a good point and will look into it.

However, the Taiwanese better play the hand they are dealt. If the military situation is dire and the PRC is successfully moving forces across the strait by sea and reinforcing beachheads, political leaders aren't going to want to hear from their naval commanders about how "subs can't operate in the shallow waters".

But of course if Taiwan Navy has no operatioal subs then they will look to the US. What's the equivalent Chinese phrase for a "Gallic shrug" of indifference when the US asks "where is your Navy, since it's your country"?

I find this personally infuriating. If Taiwan government refuses to take measures on their own behalf then why should the US President be expected to risk the life of a single American submariner? You can be sure if I were US SecDef I would make sure this message got through to Taiwan's politicians.

Of course I'm not and much of the rest of the world relaxes knowing the Americans will always be there for them, the ultimate disaster insurance. That's a bubble of complacency that definitely needs pricking IMHO.
Jerome
November 4, 2005
8:01 pm
Who says "China can't take Taiwan"? The most the U.S. would commit would be some carrier battle groups from 7th Fleet, certainly no ground forces to Taiwan to end up P.O.W.s of the Chinese. With the way America has mealymouthed its "commitment" to Taiwan, constantly subordinating it to its vastly more important economic relations with China, even 7th Fleet assistance is far from guaranteed, even saying openly that if Taiwan declares itself independent then the U.S. will consider its "commitment" to Taiwan to be null and void. Regardless, if committed they would certainly be tentative in their deployment out of fear of the multitude of Chinese anti-shipping missile systems in the littoral area, knowing all it would take would be the sinking of one carrier (or likely even just one large warship like a cruiser) to cause the American public to scream for a withdrawl, to "not shed any more American blood for the Taiwanese". This is not World War II. It is unlikely that the 7th Fleet would be able to prevent or even seriously hinder the Chinese invasion, and would likely make a minimal, token effort aimed at appearing to "help" defend Taiwan without exposing its carriers to a great amount of risk, which would be necessary in order to have any hope of stopping the landings. Also, don't discount the capabilities of the Chinese; as mentioned they have an enormous amount of anti-shipping missiles in the area, they are constantly building more and more landing ships and craft, have all but closed the previously yawning technology gap, and have numerous airborne and air-landing forces as well. Certainly everyone expects a 'Normandy-style' cross-beach invasion and this will certainly be a large part of it, no doubt. But most likely they will combine first strikes with ballistic missiles (with conventional high explosive warheads, not nuclear) and air strikes to paralyze the Taiwanese command & control nodes, combined with massive paradrops to secure the island's airbases into which they would land cargo planes and even conventional airliners filled with infantry to consolidate and expand these bridgeheads (called "airheads" as silly-sounding as that is, when speaking of paratroop operations). With these units established in considerable force behind the Taiwanese lines so to speak, they will be met by the remainder of the invasion force landing across the beaches. The idea is to seize Taiwan and crush its resistance as quickly as possible and present the U.S. and outside world with a 'fait accompli'. The main thing deterring China is not the 7th Fleet, but international opinion especially with the 2008 Olympics scheduled for Beijing. Regardless, China has a mountain of prestige tied up in the Taiwan issue as it is a part of their territory (Taiwan being populated largely by defeated Kuo-Min-Tang fascist troops from the Chinese Civil War) and will certainly go to war rather than see it formally declare independence, Olympics or no Olympics. If China decides it is going to take Taiwan, rest assured, it will.
Paul H.
November 4, 2005
9:42 pm
I think (contrary to your final assertion) that there was a significant native Taiwanese population prior to the arrival of the Kuomintang armies and Nationalist refugees from the mainland in 1948-9. Don't know the proportions offhand though so we need a link or a quote. Taiwan had been a colony of Japan since the 1894-5 Sino-Japanese war and I further gather that (unlike the mainland) the Japanese had treated the native Taiwanese reasonably well.

I'll go against the grain of my previous postings here and note that there are other, geographic factors that make an invasion of Taiwan difficult. The 100 miles or so is a lot further to go than the 20 to 40 miles across the English channel. And it's my understanding that there are few really good invasion beaches on the western side of the island, rather difficult mud flats with a considerable tidal reach.

In mid 1944 the US Navy Dept wanted to plan the invasion of Taiwan in lieu of the Army Dept's support for MacArthur to invade the Phillippines, as the next major strategic step towards the Japanese home islands. The dispute was such that Roosevelt had to make a trip to Hawaii to decide the issue during a meeting with Nimitz and MacArthur.

MacArthur was adamant about the political necessity for returning to the Phillippines instead but it's my understanding that the Navy Dept finally acceded to this only after they learned more about the lack of good landing beaches on Formosa/Taiwan. For a reference see the appropriate chapter of MacArthur bio "American Caesar" by Manchester.

Jerome is right through about the political problems of possible US losses. A heavy hit on a US major fleet unit with hundreds of dead could have enormous and unknown consequences.

And I find it rather sardonic when our "allies" berate us for what we are doing in Iraq; if they don't approve of our taking risks (and losses) there to oppose tyranny, then the next logical question is obvious: why should we do it for you either? Particularly when they are perfectly capable of defending themselves.

One thing for sure: the US won't see any naval help from NATO. Indeed, I suppose we should be satisfied with them merely wringing their hands and deploring a potential (or actual) invasion of Taiwan at the UN, given the recent French Navy joint maneuvers with the PRC as well as the Euro desire to sell their latest arms technology to the PRC.
sun bin
November 4, 2005
10:18 pm
chinese market numerals

〔¡
1:一 戔“ 〡
2:二 戔“ 〢
3:且° 戔“ 〣
4:〤
5:〥
6:〦
7:〧
8:〨
9:〩
Michael Turton
November 5, 2005
2:31 am
I find this personally infuriating. If Taiwan government refuses to take measures on their own behalf then why should the US President be expected to risk the life of a single American submariner? You can be sure if I were US SecDef I would make sure this message got through to Taiwan's politicians.

It's not TAIWAN that's doing this. The arms deal has been blocked 33 times in the legislature by the two pro-China parties who oppose Chen. They will not permit it come to a vote; they used their clout to hold it up procedurally. Chen Shui-bian supports the arms deal and repeatedly has called for its passage. So please stop writing as if this were a TAIWAN problem. It is not. It is a problem of the pro-China parties. Surveys show that the public is split on the deal, and even supporters are lukewarm because the weapons are so overpriced and useless. This brings me to the next issue...

..... the US has tremendous clout with these parties AND it has the ability to adjust the deal to make it more suitable for Taiwan's actual defense needs, rather than envisioning Taiwan as a cog in a larger US offensive strategy. The US government has not made either of these moves. It has not approached the pro-China parties and told them to shut up and pass the bill (see recent CS Monitor article on this problem). It has not changed the package to reflect Taiwan's real needs. Instead it has simply announced that "this is the package take it or leave it." Naturally Taiwan, and Taiwanese, aren't going to be happy with that. The US should shoulder a large portion of the blame for being arrogant and intrasigent.

It's important to note that this is the result of the larger problems that David alluded to above. Communication between Taipei and the US is awful. The US itself is split on how to handle China. Taiwan is divided into two opposing camps, one of which wants to annex the island to China, the other of which wants to go independent, and in the middle are a great mass of people living in a fantasy world that the status quo will persist. Everyone is at fault here.

Also I would guess that the electronics and critical systems on the destroyers could be upgraded to state of the art. It's key to have multiple "layers"Â? or "dimensions"Â? of defense and right now Taiwan mainly depends on air and coastal fortifications/ troops.

Layers are nice. But there's too much focus on hardware here. Taiwan's defenses are not well-integrated. The service branches do not work well together and the logistics branch is thoroughly corrupt. The Kidds won't change any of that. What Taiwan really needs is loads of fast, small, missile-armed attack craft.

This article details some of the porting problems Taiwan has. There's been waaay too much talk of having four new ships, and not enough of where they shall been put, support services, and system integration. All of that will require years. It was because this did not exist that the US Navy didn't want Taiwan to have AEGIS cruisers, and it was because the Kidds are senescent that the Taiwan Navy didn't really want them. They were built in '79 after all, for Iran.

But running the numbers on the "layered" defense, the M26 Standard missile launcher has a magazine of capability of 64 missiles at most, and there are two on each ship. Assuming all four Kidds get to launch all their anti-air missiles, and attain 100% effectiveness, that means 512 Chinese aircraft will be shot down. That leaves only....1,100 aircraft facing Taiwan, with another 1,000 available from elsewhere in China. And of course, long before the Kidds acheive anything near this level of success, they will be sunk.

It depends on how you see a potential war going. I think a useful historical model is the German invasion of Crete (May 1941) which was meant to be a lightning stroke. Interesting to study because the Germans had almost complete air superiority while the Royal Navy had almost complete naval superiority in the local waters.

Yeah, I thought Crete was a good one too. It shows how German control of the air eventually won the day for them, even thought the British Navy got in a few licks. It also shows how drive and elan can make up for equipment deficiencies in the short term. Another good historical analogy is the invasion of Norway in WWII, which really should have failed.

I agree that Taiwan's airfields are an issue. There are a couple of hardened ones, but big problems remain in hardening the airfields and in construction and training in ECM and command and control in the event of an attack. But China's missiles are not very accurate and I believe that they function more as a terror weapon than a credible deterrant and military threat.

think (contrary to your final assertion) that there was a significant native Taiwanese population prior to the arrival of the Kuomintang armies and Nationalist refugees from the mainland in 1948-9. Don't know the proportions offhand though so we need a link or a quote. Taiwan had been a colony of Japan since the 1894-5 Sino-Japanese war and I further gather that (unlike the mainland) the Japanese had treated the native Taiwanese reasonably well.

Yes, several million prior to KMT arrival. The Japanese were brutal but there was rule of law and stable economic growth that resulted in comes that probably met or exceeded Japanese per capital income by the late 1930s, thanks to subsidized rice and sugar farming. The difference is not the level of brutality but the glittering incompetence, corruption, and arrogance of the KMT, especially in the immediate postwar period. The Japanese ruthlessly suppressed opposition but simpleminded money corruption was not perceived by locals as a serious problem, the way it was under the KMT.

Sun Bin! I didn't mean to imply that Chen was omnicompetent. I was only talking about foreign policy, which hasn't been too bad. Domestic policy is in disarray, of course.

I'll go against the grain of my previous postings here and note that there are other, geographic factors that make an invasion of Taiwan difficult. The 100 miles or so is a lot further to go than the 20 to 40 miles across the English channel. And it's my understanding that there are few really good invasion beaches on the western side of the island, rather difficult mud flats with a considerable tidal reach.

I doubt they will land on beaches. I expect them to make landings at the major ports, particularly Tamshui and Taichung, which is flat, open, and served by excellent roads. It would be silly to land on beaches, which do not go anywhere. The Normandy scenario is misleading, don't buy into it.

David & Michael: How do we define pragmatism and good foreign policy? (I hear similar statements from Roh's supporter.) But both Roh and Chen believe their nations are the "balancers"Â? that can define the actions of the other powers in the region"”?which really, really pisses everyone else off. Chen's actions, even if you think they're wise and strategic, are losing Taiwan many erstwhile supporters in the US.

Is Taiwan really losing support in the US? What policies are causing that? Chen's policy is very pragmatic -- it takes account of...

1. Taiwanese desire to not become part of China
2. Overwhelming Chinese military power.
3. The fact that his allies, the US and Japan, cannot be depended on and have their own agendas vis a vis China.
4. The need for peace in Asia to grow the economy.
5. The desire among Chen's supporters for independence.
6. The fact that Taiwan's military is controlled by his political enemies who are sympathetic to China.
7. The fact that he has no legislative majority.
8. The fact that his military is incompetent and poorly led.

All of this constrains his behavior. Chen's been careful to push things as far as he has dared, yet walk within this bounds. Taiwan has very little control over events; as recent jockeying in the Japan Sea or the East China Sea or the Great Lake of Korea or whatever they are calling the waters off Japan these days shows, Taiwan may well find itself dragged into a war between China and Japan over resources in adjoining waters. Taiwan is not the only flashpoint and may not even be the worst.

Michael
Michael Turton
November 5, 2005
2:37 am
I should add, Paul, that the Kidds will only be effective if the air above the Straits is controlled by Taiwan. Which it won't be. Without control of the air, they will be sunk instantly. That's why the highest priority is fighters and more fighters. Aircraft drills, training, and practice. Hardened airfields and command centers. ECW equipment. Some of this was in the original package delivered in the late 1990s, but not nearly enough.

Michael
sunbin
November 5, 2005
5:00 am
Michael,

Taiwan is a democracy. The parliament did not approve it = Taiwan did not want it.
Very simple.
Any party, whichever way you want to label it, since it is democratically elected, it represents (part of) Taiwan.

DPP and TSU has a tendency to equate themselves with Taiwan. That is completely misleading.

You are basically saying American wants to get out of Iraq but Bush wanted to stay. But even though we could agree Bush is nut, he got 52% votes.
Mutantfrog
November 5, 2005
5:35 am
Very good discussion. I don't have time to really get into it now (since formulating a serious response would require some research) but I will make two historical notes to correct some uncertainty expressed by previous posters.

"Taiwan being populated largely by defeated Kuo-Min-Tang fascist troops from the Chinese Civil War"

About 80% of Taiwan's population today consists of ethnic Chinese (mainly Hoklo, with a significant number of Hakka) that emmigrated from the Mainland at various time over the past 400 years, before the KMT. 2% consists of aborigines, and the rest is KMT. Of course, in the later generations, there has been mixing between the so called 'native' Taiwanese and 'Mainlanders,' so the number are becoming increasingly fuzzy with time.

"And it's my understanding that there are few really good invasion beaches on the western side of the island, rather difficult mud flats with a considerable tidal reach."
This is correct. Taiwan has very few decent natural ports, which is one reason that it was never highly developed by the Qing government (although the fact that they barely considered it part of China is also significant). Japan developed Taiwan, despite a lack of good natural ports, because the rich farmland of Taiwan was many times more valuable to Japan with its limited space back home than it was to the Chinese Empire.
davesgonechina
November 6, 2005
12:15 am
I listened to a Kaplan appearance at JHU a couple of weeks ago, and he had a couple interesting comments on which naval theorists the Chinese are reading. Audio of the appearance at the top of the page:

Kaplan, China and the Kaiser
Michael Turton
November 6, 2005
7:12 am
Taiwan is a democracy. The parliament did not approve it = Taiwan did not want it.
Very simple.


Sun,

Taiwan's legislature has never voted on it.

Even simpler.

Michael
Mutantfrog
November 6, 2005
2:34 pm
As for democracy and the arms deal- there was a referrendum to approve a special budget to buy these weapons. The referrendum was a separate ballot from the normal one, but given at the same time. For some reason, it was decided that the referrendum would pass only if 50% or more of all total voters approved it. Not 50% of all people who voted on the special referrendum, but 50% of all people voting in the general election.

In the end, only about 48% of the voters voted on the referrendum at all, but of those that voted on it, the vast majority voted yet. The KMT tried to spin this as an overwhelming rejection of the arms deal, which is clearly an absurd position. By any reasonable measure, it just barely failed.

In no way did the people reject the arms bill, they merely failed to endorse it to the degree legally required to implement it.
Michael Turton
November 6, 2005
2:52 pm
China and the U.S. have very few competing interests, other than our strange, still-on-the-books promise to defend Taiwan at all costs (which should be jettisoned immediately.) We have no competing interests in the South China Sea.

We don't have any promise to defend Taiwan at all costs. There is no document anywhere that states such a thing, unless you buy Hartzell's theory that Taiwan is an unincorporated territory of the US based on the laws governing occupations, but no one does.

Barnett's analysi is deceptive. We may or may not have competing interests in the South China Sea, but that is not the only place where China and the US compete, and not the only possible flashpoint for a conflict.

Michael
sun bin
November 6, 2005
7:40 pm
Barnett is a realist.

He is asking the question, "where does US define its boundary of control?" noting the diminishing return in term of benefit/cost.

even though US is unquestionable the hegemony of today, at some point it is going to overstretch the empire.
davesgonechina
November 6, 2005
9:10 pm
Sun Bin, I think it's a good question for the US to consider where its future demarcation lines will be, since they will undoubtedly change. I don't think, however, that's a question the US can answer at the moment without throwing everything into total disarray.

I also don't think that is what Barnett is asking. He seems, esp. from the above quote, to be asking "why don't we just wipe our hands of Taiwan so that we can have a wonderful future with China?" Yknow, if that were in fact possible, I might just jump on that bandwagon. But it seems ridiculously oversimplistic. China and the US may not have a full cold war ahead, but they will have a good couple of decades at least of drawn out maneuvering, pivoting and no doubt the occasional flash of brinksmanship over the Pacific, because China will get around to going blue water.

The post I left before is about the Chinese navy's apparent fascination with Alfred Thayer Mahan, progenitor of modern "sea power" theory and one of the key architects of early U.S. imperialism at the turn of the century. If he really is China's favorite navy theorist, they will go blue water sooner rather than later.
sunbin
November 6, 2005
9:40 pm
If you read Barnett's other writing, you would see he has good reasoning for his conclusions. I know such discussions are arts, not science, but one should ot simply it as a wishful belief of 'wonderul future'.
(i was amazed at his insight when he commenting on the 'changhong/apex' "incidence":http://simonworld.mu.nu/archives/130542.php)

after all, it is asking the question of the US objectives in the west pacific, and what the best way to achieve its interests will be.
e.g.
- what actually does US interests mean? economica or political? how does this impact people back home?
- does security mean direct control of all sea lanes? or leverage allies (eg Japan and korea) and also friendly countries? (can china or vietnam become friendly and harmless like malaysia or singapore?)
- weighting the 'interests' against the 'cost' to achieve it
davesgonechina
November 6, 2005
10:16 pm
Sun Bin:
Again, all good questions - but above Barnett seems to dismiss the East China Sea, South China Sea, Sea of Japan et al. as not being potential points for more confrontation with China, which seems totally facile. So I don't know where he gets "very few competing interests". The military currently considers all of those interests, and Kaplan reports on how the military views the necessity of those points to maintain our current influence and how to keep them. All militaries are like that, which is why I found the Chinese generals "its not policy, but personally I'd go nuclear" comment totally natural. He's charged with preparing for the worst challenge to the current state of affairs and being ready to do it. That's what a soldier does.

So I think a question like "What actually does US interests mean?" is too philosophical for the military. That question is for Congress and the White House in consultation with Pentagon brass. Kaplan talks to the guys under their command.

You thought Barnett's "it's not the govt running the company, it's the company running the govt!" was insight? I just thought it was glib.
sunbin
November 6, 2005
10:36 pm
well, the difference is that between Klaus von Clausewitz (also Sun Zi) and that of, say, Patton.
It is about what drives military strategy. It is very pragmatic rather than philosophical.
"War is merely a continuation of politics":http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carl_von_Clausewitz

for the military, yes, they don't need to worry about the big picture. they just take orders and execute. kaplan can work with the military. but it would be a disaster to give him the power to make decsion in the white house.

so what is the big picture? list some tangible example of "competing interest", which really makes a difference in the lives of US citizen at home or abroad. you can including their overseas commercial interests because that changes the income of price of those back home.

Barnett's approach looks into these issues from a broader picture.

---
yes...it is great insight. it is reflected in many other facets of domestic politics. it takes a lot of interactions with local chinese biz leaders to appreciate what that means.
davesgonechina
November 6, 2005
11:03 pm
yes"¦it is great insight. it is reflected in many other facets of domestic politics. it takes a lot of interactions with local chinese biz leaders to appreciate what that means.


Maybe I just spent enough time in China that it sounds terribly obvious to me. But I still think it's glib. The company controls the local govt, yeah. But the company is the national govt, and vice versa. It's all the same thing. In this situation, where economic interests trump everything, the company calls the shots. But on another issue the govt may be telling the company what they must or cannot do.

I don't know what the big picture is. I know that competing interests exist because of our ties to Japan, Korea, Taiwan, Singapore, which means our hegemony overlaps with China's own backyard as it builds the boats to play in it. That's how we get into trouble, much like Taiwan. Granted, Taiwan is particularly sensitive. But that overlap could complicate things if relations get frosty.

As for Kaplan in the White House, I don't think he'd ever want to be making the decisions. I think he just wants the White House to read his books. He reports much more than pontificates. Barnett is the other way around.

How does Barnett, btw, answer all those questions you raised earlier?
sunbin
November 6, 2005
11:11 pm
i think barnett thinks in that big picture perspective, and offers his opinion.
his answer is not the full answer and we can discuss or even argue against his thesis.
all i said is that one needs to step back and think in that perspective.

stepping into other's backyard does not necessarily means someting bad in the pragmatic sense. but it does if the cost far outweights the benefits.
sunbin
November 6, 2005
11:18 pm
OFFTOPIC: about changong / company running govt. it is more complicated than what you said, the state and the companies (nominally state owned) have very different 'interests' and they do not neccesarily align in many situations. the state also does not have full control on these companies.
i tend to think the analogy of Halliburton and the Bush govt is a better one that that of the Soviet state=company.
davesgonechina
November 7, 2005
12:19 am
I think a major part of taking a step back, as you say, is to have a better understanding of what both players are looking to do. Whether or not the cost of being in China's backyard outweighs the benefit, is all about what China thinks about it. It's not particularly clear what China intends to do with the backyard in 20 years, or even where it thinks the backyard will be in terms of sea power. The US can afford to and should be flexible with this, as Barnett seems to suggest, but I think the key is figuring out China's intentions. What I've read is that they're quoting one of the fathers of US imperialism. Is that really where they're going? If so, then we start to get some ideas of the costs. That means a large Chinese fleet that patrols the China Seas and has a permanent presence all the way to the Gulf via the "string of pearls" to protect commercial lanes. Could the US give up certain policing duties to the Chinese in order to concentrate on global rapid response and humanitarian missions? Would China one day stop a transport of US interest as part of its own "war on terror"? If they are constructing a navy based on big fleet battles, as their reading list recommends, will they be totally ill-equipped to fight piracy in the South China Seas?

I can think of tons of possibilities.

As for Changhong: I didn't mean their interests are the same. Some times they overlap, and as I said sometimes its going to be the govt calling the shots on Changhong instead of, as in this case, Changhong being in charge. I agree with what you're saying, but that's not what I saw Barnett saying; I saw Barnett saying "wow, how ironic that the company is in charge in Mao's old turf", which is one those classic "China has changed" stories you see from newbie China reporters.
sun bin
November 7, 2005
6:35 am
i think it is futile to speculate what china will do in 20 years. even hu jintao himself does not know.
a couple generations of leadership will be replaced then.
i think what you have do is to look at the fundamentals, eg what the economic, popular sentiment, environmental needs would drive china into. what makes sense and what don't. and whether common sense will prevail in the leadership. you then center your response around this 'average', and place some hedgin against the downside.

newbie reporters :) you know still a lot of people in US think and call it "communist china".
tdaxp
December 24, 2005
5:00 am
Embracing Defeat, Part IV: Embracing Victory

We need to win.

Here's how



In Blueprint for Action, Dr. Thomas P.M. Barnett gives a forward-looking plan for winning the Global War on Terrorism, shrinking the Gap, peacefully integrating China, and ending war as we know it. Dr. Barnett's ...
ComingAnarchy.com » Blog Archive » Economic Determinism v.s. Human Nature
July 11, 2006
4:17 am
[...] Sound familiar? [...]
ComingAnarchy.com » Blog Archive » Pinned: America’s Taiwan Policy, Reconsidered
December 20, 2008
12:26 pm
[...] is a modification of a post originally published three years ago. I repost in the hopes of relaunching a dialogue on America’s Taiwan policy. President Obama [...]