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Curzon
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Curzon

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November 2nd, 2005

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Saigon to Tokyo… OVERLAND!

I have to be in the US until December 9th; I have to be in Japan by January 10th. That leaves a month for some travel provided I end up in Tokyo. A good friend and I just bought one-way tickets to Saigon (for bargain prices), and we’re going to spend the month going overland to Tokyo.

Here’s the proposed route (original map from Nasa World Wind).

My route from Saigon to Tokyo, through Vietnam, China, and Japan

The only definite travel date is the Shanghai-Osaka ferry, which leaves January 3rd and arrives in Osaka January 5th—unless if we decide to leave from Tianjian, near Beijing. Besides that, any suggestions on to where to go and what to see? One friend who’s traveled a similar route sent me this email:

Vietnam is pretty Ok-lah (as the Singaporeans say). Hanoi is cool but the Vietnamese are a shifty bunch of people, which can put a dampener on stuff. About 40 mins motor bike ride from Nha Trang, Vietnam, (a big ass resort city with lots of fat germans) is a beach called Doc Let, which is very secluded and chilled (or was seven years ago… Given the break neck pace of development it may have become a biotech hub by now). Chengdu, China, is not a particularly charming city but the areas around it are stunning, I went from there up onto the Tibetan plateau to a monastery called Xiahe which was very cool.

Just 6 more weeks until we leave, so any information would be greatly appreciated. And of course, if any readers are available to meet up, ComingAnarchy blogger socialization rules apply: first round of beers are on me.

Comments to this entry

DeadPen
November 2, 2005
2:34 pm
You guys have so much fun. I hope to travel as much as you do one day. Do post pictures of the interesting things you come across along your way ;)
Chirol
November 2, 2005
2:41 pm
Congrats on the fabulous plans! Did you ever consider going into Laos?
Curzon
November 2, 2005
2:44 pm
Considered -- and still under consideration. This plan is tenative, and I think this will give us the chance to see the most interesting things.

I am still debating as to whether or not I should take my laptop. Any thoughts?
Ron Patterson
November 2, 2005
2:44 pm
Dear Curzon sounds like a great trip. If you are going overland this means train travel. Be advised that to go to Kunming to Beijing is a three day trip on a Chinese train. The other destinations will add aditional time. Chinese trains are not for the comfort of the passenger. They are noisy crowded and the food on board is likely to be dodgy! A soft sleeper where you and your friend will share a compartment with two others is the height of comfort on a chinese train. There are additional pleasantries such as toilets that overflow, compartment companions who talk or play cards all night long. But it is also fun and exciting definitely an adventure. Also occasionally the scenery can be so beautiful and exoctic that it boggles the mind. Warning stay away from the intercity buses, particuraly the overnight sleeper buses. You will have a great time if you have a spirit of adventure, a sense of humor, and you will get closer to the people than most tourist who never really mingle with the natives. Good luck!! Sichuan and Yunnan are spectacuraly beautiful.
Chirol
November 2, 2005
2:48 pm
I'd never even consider taking my laptop traveling. It's not worth it. The possible problems so far outweigh its possible usefullness that I can't even believe you'd consider it.
Chief Wiggum
November 2, 2005
4:31 pm
That should be a great trip. I read _Riding the Red Rooster_ awhile back, written by Paul Theroux who spent a year traveling all over China by train. Ron is right- definitely book the "soft sleeper" section of the train, and be prepared to relax notions of hygiene and privacy.

In the '70s, I took a train trip from Bombay to Delhi in the third-class, unreseved car. This was my first experience of riding in an Indian train. I could have ridden second-class reserved, which would have given me a place to sit and lie down to sleep at night, but that cost about a dollar more, which at the time I thought was a frivilous expense. The trip took about 24 hours, and I stood the entire way. There may have been hundreds of people in the car, jammed in like sardines. Even the toilets were full of people.

Please note that when Theroux took the train in the late '80s, they were unheated and very drafty. Northern China, particulary the interior, can be very cold at that time of year.
sun bin
November 2, 2005
5:32 pm
branch out from kunming to li-jiang/shangri-la for 2-3 days if you have time.
it is an 1-hour flight and some bus ride.

i.e.
kunimg-lijiang-chengdu.
Curzon
November 2, 2005
5:36 pm
Thx -- never heard of Lijiang, where is that?
sun bin
November 2, 2005
5:41 pm
about 400 km NW of Kunming, NW tip of Yunnan province.
!http://www.toptrip.cc/tours/new/images/chn_cla_yz_34_44.gif!
sun bin
November 2, 2005
5:46 pm
"flickr random pic":http://www.flickr.com/photos/tags/lijiang/

"the shang":http://www.flickr.com/photos/tags/shangrila/
sun bin
November 2, 2005
5:47 pm
in other words, the Telluride and Aspen of China
Mike
November 2, 2005
6:58 pm
I disagree on Chengdu. I spent some time there and found the people to be very friendly and fun to talk to, but, that was in Chinese, of course...it is a very relaxed place and, as said, a good place to set out to other destinations from. I highly, highly, reccomend Jiuzhaigou, which is one of the few places in China that actually lives up to the ridiculous hype it gets. Just don't go on the tour bus! My friend and I smuggled ourselves into the park with the help of some friendly and enterprising Tibetans, who you may be able to find loitering around the entrance. You can stay in their village inside the park and they'll feed you, and that way you can set out at your leisure and take or leave the eighty billion buses packed with Chinese tourists.
Peter
November 2, 2005
8:09 pm
I rather liked Chengdu. Kunming wasn't all that fantastic though, but no real complaints. I would also suggust a side trip to Shangri-la (a.k.a. Zhongdian), it's a beautiful little town with very friendly people. You've seen my pictures from there, Curzon. :)
sun bin
November 2, 2005
8:32 pm
i love chengdu, also kunming
jiuzhaigou is of course great.

wuhan is probably the one you could skip.
instead, take the boat from chongqing to yichang. the 3 gorges, though submerged, should still be a good boat trip.
Ron Patterson
November 3, 2005
2:27 am
If you have time definitely do the Dali-Lijiang trip, caution in winter may be dicey. Shangi-la is at 10,000 feet , so snow would probably prevent that trip. Also Wuhan is the one to skip, just industry and grime, near Chengdu is amazing scenery and cultural sites. dress warm and relax you will have a great time!! DO Not let anyone convince you to take this trip by airplane. China must be seen and felt!
sunbin
November 3, 2005
3:34 am
oh..forgot it is winter.
ron is right. it is rather cold then

(upside is not many tourists)
Matt
November 3, 2005
4:46 am
A note on Theroux's book- train travel has certainly improved in China since the mid 80s. Also: there isn't much difference between hard sleeper and soft sleeper. It's usually worth just buying a hard sleeper ticket and saving the money.

I take a perverse enjoyment in long-distance bus and train trips in China. Even though they're crowded and noisy, there's a certain intimacy that develops between the passengers that you don't find in other parts of the world. I can't tell you how grateful I am for all the unsolicited help I received from Chinese people in my early days in the country- otherwise I'd have been completely lost.
heirabbit
November 3, 2005
3:19 pm
Chengdu is great. Hardsleepers are not. Though it's not the 80's anymore, my last trips cured me from anything below top class. You'll also meet more interesting people there. Hard seat tickets get you in with the most annoying and insinuating folks. The toilets are usually alright, and the food is palatable. Beer and snacks are cheaper if you step outside the train at one of the stops. Have fun!
ComingAnarchy.com » Blog Archive » Let there be light
November 8, 2005
2:19 pm
[...] As regular readers know, I’m heading through Vietnam and China on my way to Japan next month. This map is another way of looking at the route I’ll be taking. [...]
lirelou
November 9, 2005
1:08 am
Nha Trang is worth a day or two. An all day boat trip around the islands in the bay costs you $6.00, and includes pick-up at your hotel (0830ish), lunch, an hours free mulberry wine (hey, not bad), and a fruitfest at the end of the day. (try boat crew #4,) Also, visit the Yersin museum for a few hours (inside the Pasteur Institute grounds). Note that after the Cham, no city existed in Nha Trang until Yersin decided to establish himself there. Also, visit the Cham tower and you will note that the civilization in South Central "Vietnam" up to several hundred years ago was not Vietnamese. The area of Vietnam around Nha Trang (Khanh Hoa province) has been Vietnamese for only 350 years. Local left-leaning expats are quite unaware of this, and will sit under banners proclaiming that fact (it's the 350th anniversary) while telling you that Vietnam in its present state is over 2,000 years old. So much for the intellectual quality of the local expats.
Guest house #30 will cost you $5.00 to $8.00 a day. The Nha Trang/White House restaurant next door has a micro-brewery. (OK, but you can get "bia hoi" for a lot less that tastes nearly as good. One good local "bia hoi" is "Viet-Duc", or "Viet-German"), and it is within easy walking distance of both the beach and the tourist/diver haunts clustered around "Krazy Kim's".
For a bit of war history, travel 11 kilometers west of Nha Trang to Dien Khanh and visit the citadel built in 1793. During late WWII the Viet Minh took Nha Trang, but in late '45 a battalion of the 6th Colo Inf landed and threw them out. The Dien Khanh citadel was too hard a nut to crack, so the 6th RIC had to wait until LTC Jacques Massu's armored/inf column came down from Ban Me Thuot via Ninh Hoa to retake the Citadel. In 1946 the 6th RIC ceded it to the 2nd Foreign legion Regt, whose Hqs was in Nha Trang. The famous amored train ran from Nha Trang south to Phan Thiet and north to Danang. Back to the citadel, walk through the main gate, take your second left street, and you are looking at what was the home of SFODA A-502, 5th Special Forces Group from 1966-72. It is now a PAVN Army post (no pictures allowed). Out the back gate you will see the Catholic church. This was the second largest citadel in Imperial Vietnam. Back out the main gate, take the first major street in Dien Khanh town running to the left, and follow it to the river. You will see the pilings from the old 1968 era bridge. The nearby war memorial shows a grieving Vietnamese mother clutching a dead son. The plaque notes that the monument is to those "patriots foully murdered by the Americans and their puppet forces (Vietnamese) whose bodies were dumped here." This is where the bodies of VC and NVA killed by USSF A-502 and Vietnamese Special Forces led Vietnamese forces were dropped off so that their families could reclaim them.
Back to Nha Trang, the airfield is closed down, and will be developed as either a free zone or tourist area. In 1954 the five Vietnamese parachute battalions were consolidated into three, and posted to Nha Trang as the "Airborne Battle Group 3". Among the people who served there was Do Cao Tri, Vietnam's premiere airborne commander. When Diem came to power, the paratroops were moved down to Tan Son Nhut and Bien Hoa, where they were closer to the palace to protect Diem against coups. During the second phase of the Indochina war, Nha Trang was the headquarters of both the Vietnamese Special Forces (the LLDB), and the U.S. 5th Special Forces Group, as well as an Air Commando wing.
The City government does deserve honorable mention for the improvements it has made to Nha Trang. nevertheless, a pleasant colonial sea resort city is being modernized, not always with an eye to preserving Nha Trang's traditional architecture.

Have a good trip.
Thes Quid
November 9, 2005
4:05 am
On the subject of your laptop: if you've a small, tough, lightweight one, consider picking up a cell modem once in China. CDMA modems (either card or USB) are relatively fast, I've used them all over China. Or you can pair a cellphone and use a gprs connection. Either way, the coverage is great. Best option for ultra-lightweight: get a dopod. They weigh about like a thick phone. They can snap (VGA-quality) photos, do email, browse, and generally can keep you linked. Update with high quality photos from your normal camera once in the metro areas using hotel or Internet cafe computers.
sun bin
November 9, 2005
6:13 pm
Chinese internet cafe also very cheap (you can also plug your laptop there). RMB1-5/hour.
lirelou
November 10, 2005
2:03 am
Once your train departs Nha Trang and crosses the river "Cai" you are in what was the 9th Korean Divisions area. This continues up throuth Binh Dinh province to Quang Tri, which was the Korean "Tiger" Divisions area in 1968. Danang marked the beginning of "Marine land" (IIIrd Marine Amphibious Force), which included a brigade of ROK Marines. The Americal (My Lai), 196th LIB, and other Army combat units also operated there. I mention this because if you were travelling by road, you would note a fair number of Korean owned factories flying both the ROKand Vietnamese flags. Having fought in Vietnam on the abandoned side did not keep the Koreans from getting their foot in the door when Vietnam decided to open up to foreign investment. (and it wasn't even a Korean who said: "The business of this country is ... business") And the few Koreans I met who served there weren't the least bit apologetic about their war service. One Korean plant manager was the half Vietnamese son of a Korean war veteran who had himself served with the ROK Special Warfare Brigade.

Danang - yawn. Trip to Hue should be easier now that the Australians have helped Vietnam build a new tunnel that avoids the pass (Hai Van?), but Hue is definitely worth the visit, even if in truth the "imperial city" is a pale copy of Beijing. (As are Seoul's major palaces). First, try the "Mam", which is various types of pickled fish and crustaceans. I much prefer the large shrimp variety myself ("mam tom"). They have a spicy sweet and salty taste, and are often pickled with shredded green papaya. Hue is great for food, and a night out on a dragon boat with ao-dai clad long tressed lasses singling traditional balads to the sounds of good band playing traditional music will make you a convinced Hue-o-phile no matter what else you experience in Asia. As for the "imperial city", note that the Vietnames have suckered the UN into declaring it a world cultural landmark, I presume to get funding for its repair. The Vietnamese government dishonestly notes that the damage was caused by "the war", without noting who exactly made the decision to penetrate into the imperial quarters and turn it into a battle zone. (None other than themselves, precisely because it would be under-guarded) The U.S. Marines, whose promotional talents are without peer, got all the credit for retaking Hue in 1968, but in truth the lion's part of that fight went to the Vietnamese Airborne Division, the ARVN Marines, and the 1st ARVN Division. Also, learn to bite your tongue when you run into your fellow Americans and Europeans fresh from their visit to My Lai. Their righteous anger is further fueled by a total ignorance of the 1968 Hue Massacres, which were not an aberration of war, but rather carefully planned and executed for precisely that purpose. You won't see any monument to the 3 - 5K Vietnamese murdered there, some of whom were buried alive. Nor will you see any ARVN cemeteries, as these were all plowed over. (Hard to pitch the war as "Americans versus Vietnamese" with ARVN cemeteries about. Best to erase them from sight.)

Finally, as you travel through Vietnam, note the physical differences between North, Central, and South Vietnamese. It's getting harder now that so many Vietnamese travel beyond their areas of origin, but the north and central parts are still pretty much genetically homogenous, and differ. (Oh, if the Creator had time warps, to come back as Emperor of Vietnam.) IMHO, Vietnamese, Cham, Lao, and Thai women are the most beautiful in the "Liuge" - Chinese influenced Asia.



Ah, Lonely Planet publishes a guide to Vietnamese Cuisine. I would recommend getting one if you don't already have it. And there is a blog called "noodlepie" by a Brit out of Saigon which covers Vietnamese food.
ComingAnarchy.com » Blog Archive » The Diversity of Economic Realities in Southeast Asia
December 8, 2005
6:00 am
[...] I’ve traveled to four countries in Southeast Asia: Thailand, Malaysia, Singapore, and Cambodia. Singapore was highly developed, Malaysia moderately so; Thailand was developing fast, while Cambodia was undeveloped. I’m looking forward to observing the state of Vietnam in just a few short days and seeing how it compares to the rest of the region. [...]
ComingAnarchy.com » Blog Archive » Tally Ho! Curzon is off to Saigon
December 12, 2005
5:23 am
[...] Saigon to Tokyo… OVERLAND!Let there be lightTally Ho to Timbuktu!How Lady Curzon Saved the Rhino!Foxy, no? [...]