I believe Sharon has already said and realizes that they’re going to leave the far flung smaller towns and only keep the major blocks…. but again that was already the proposal at Taba and the White House with Clinton – and the Palis walked out and amped up their war which THEY PLANNED AND STARTED…….

The Palis think they shouldn’t even share control of the Temple Mount with Israel….. that they should control the Western Wall…

The bottom line is there is NO PEACE… Israel is going to be forced to make tough decisions and decide what is best for it… they’ll never probably in this lifetime have a “PEACE PARTNER“

If you read Thomas Friedman he’ll wax from his imagination and tell you what you want to hear – but that is like most things in the NY Times – just the fiction he created in his own mind.

Mike

I’m not saying it’s wrong to be there, but I wonder what Israelis think is the best way to secure the future? Taking all of the west bank would be an impossibility, I think, and the present status quo is unpleasant, so how to secure a better future?

I like the idea of retreating behind massive walls and fortifications in a unified Israeli state, but I’ve heard that that could leave the country perilously undefendable in certain sections. Are there better options? It just seems that the present situation with settlements throughout a very hostile West Bank is far from ideal and probably unworkable in the long run. I just can’t believe that most Israelis are satisfied with the present status quo.

1) If you cut out your heart bcs it makes more sense you still cut out your heart. If Jews have been living in Hebron for 4000 years it seems insane that due to Arab rejectionism that they still can’t live there. I’m not particularly religious but letting the Arabs destroy the Temple Mount and throw out 4000 years of not only Hebrew, but Caanaanite and Greek and Roman history in the process due to Islamist Fanaticism and because if they try to stop if 1 billion Muslims might scream Jihad and Crusades…. so ok let’s let them destroy that little hill over there?
2) Do they get out of Western Samaria? The Jews form a clear and significant majority there and there were barely any Arabs there prior to 67.
3) Do they get out of the Golan? That is a crucial hill for Israel’s defense no matter how good their air force is.
4) Do they give up Eastern Jerusalem as well? Control of the Western Wall because the Arabs (Or PLO and Al Jazeera at least) that Mohammed didn’t fly to heaven from the other wall no no it was that one, the one the Joooos prey at.
Do they give up Maael Edumin and Rachel’s Tomb and let it go the route of Joseph’s Tomb?

It’s not so simple as just “get out of the West Bank”

And by the way the Jews were the majority in 48 in Jerusalem including Eastern Jerusalem.

Mike

As an American who’s spent much of his adult life abroad, I find the problem most people across the globe have with Israelis is the same problem people across the globe have with Americans — a minority of the population acts like nutjobs and gets the rest in trouble. The settlers going into the west banks are a shining example of that nutjob minority.

Israel of course should control immigration. But considering all possible futures, it should get out of the West Bank. Seriously — there is no future in sending a few nutjob settlers into a place with no native economy and an exploding, resentful population.

Well, I didn’t say that they shouldn’t control immigration any less, if anything I was implying more control. But feel free to read whatever you want.

the latter sentence is pretty rich… you fantasize that one in your head? Have you done a survey? you seem pretty sure here?

Israel needs to control immigration for obvious reasons. Unless you think it would be cool being ruled by Arabs…… if so why don’t you move to Jordan or Syria… or go around Lebanon even and publicize the fact that you’re Jewish.

A lot of the so called settlers are not even real Israelis, they’re just crazy fuckers from Queens or Staten or Long Island who move to Israel to live out some kind of macho frontier fantasy, and never even lived in Israel proper. It’s pathetic that the military, which incidentally is mainly composed of secularists and moderates, because the seriously orthodox Jews (including most of the settlers) duck out of military service by claiming religious bullshit exemption.

Again for someone who isn’t that sure of what he knows you seem to be quite definitive and descriptive? and have somehow a real good idea about the mental status of “many Israelis” and “settlers”.

Just for background, I am New York Jewish. I have been to Israel about 10 years ago for a 2 week trip, and I had a great time. I like Israel and want to see the country remain stable, but I also don’t have any respect for anti-Arab Zionists.

Oh well that’s interesting and good to know you have such a good idea of what’s going on over there…

I’ll admit, I don’t follow Israel all that closely. But the impression I get is that the government gives a vastly disproportionate amount of influence to hard-core conservative orthodox groups. Is that incorrect?

Maybe I’m wrong about Israeli demographics, but I absolutely stand by my statement that the so-called ‘right of return’ has outlived its usefulness and should be abolished. Why should I have any special immigration priveleges to a country with which I have no special relationship, and which no member of my family, living or dead, has ever been a citizen of?

Your summation of who serves in the Army and who is a ‘moderate’ a ‘zionist’ and an orthodox jew displayed how much you actually know…. If I were you – which for the record I’m not -
I’d likely talk as little as possible so there’s a chance someone might not be sure of your intelligence.

A lot of the so called settlers are not even real Israelis, they’re just crazy fuckers from Queens or Staten or Long Island who move to Israel to live out some kind of macho frontier fantasy, and never even lived in Israel proper. It’s pathetic that the military, which incidentally is mainly composed of secularists and moderates, because the seriously orthodox Jews (including most of the settlers) duck out of military service by claiming religious bullshit exemption.

Just for background, I am New York Jewish. I have been to Israel about 10 years ago for a 2 week trip, and I had a great time. I like Israel and want to see the country remain stable, but I also don’t have any respect for anti-Arab Zionists.

MF, I was not impressed by Sacco’s Palestine, which I read about two years ago. But where’s your standard comment on the type of people who go into the West Bank to settle? Please oh please… it’s such a good one.

British occupation of India where certain streets were to be used by Indians and others by whites.

America in the South during the years of slavery.

Northern Ireland today, where Catholic schoolgirls (six to ten year olds) are attacked as they walk to their primary school in a Protestant area by big brave men and women.

Some things never change, they merely assume a new government.

Pi.

There is no “status quo” to return to – the hazy-focused pastorale of Arab Palestine is a fabricated nostalgia for a place that never existed.

The notion that the Arabs were just brimming with multi-culti good will until the Israelis “occupied” Hebron is equally false.

There is a reason the checkpoints are there.

Solomon asked how the Jewish settlers know which houses are Jewish. Simple: the Jewish quarter was decimated by an Arab pogrom in the 1930s, so there are clear records of which houses were Jewish until VERY recently. There are also often Jewish symbols and names carved into the lintels of the facades.

NONE of the “oppressive settler extremists” living in Hebron has taken over Arab areas. They are all living in the old Jewish quarter, and have refurbished Jewish properties – some of which were seized during the 1967 war, some of which were purchased from their Muslim usurpers.

In every case Jewish residence and ownership into the 20th century have been documented.

For more information:
http://www.hebron.org.il/

His later work on Bosnia is also highly recommended.

And while Palis can travel anywhere in the Middle East Jews cannot. So why can’t Jews live in Samaria, Judea etc…
There is only 1 reason… while Israel can be expected to respect Arabs and other minorities rights the world can’t expect (due to some of course reason or wronging of course….) Arabs to respect the lives and rights of Jews living there.

And of course that doesn’t even mention that a majority of Jews in Israel are formerly from Middle Eastern and/or Muslim countries.

Sound fair to you?

Not to be a minimizer because I do understand that there is another side that needs to be pointed out.
However, what is never pointed out is that while the occupation is not a pleasant things how much were Pali lives improved from 1967 up to Oslo?
In pre 67 days the place was a declining hovel and a complete dump. Israel brought education, schools, sewer and plumbing, jobs, electricity, and civil order.
Since the PLO has taken over there is massive corruption, violence and inefficency as well as graft of course.

Of course that doesn’t justify unfair treatment for Palestinians but at the same time the present day screaming from the left and most of the world only acknowledges one story line that is often filled with lies, distortions and propaganda.

How do you know that they’re incorrect? (I acknowledge you could also ask how the settlers know, but they’re not here to ask.)

I always read these accounts with great interest (and thank you for posting them), but also with great caution, since I find the narrator almost always includes, sometimes unwittingly, sometimes not, more information than they could possibly have. Jews did live in Hebron, their property was taken. Whether that’s an excuse for people to run around and spray-paint stuff now, and whether those buildings are their stuff, is another set of questions. I’m just interested in the facts.

You surrender all you have to guards who send it off to be thoroughly searched and tested for explosive residue. Then you head to the passport control desk, are asked a few dozen questions, have your passport thoroughly looked over and are asked about any suspicious places like Syria and Lebanon, then they take your passport and send you off to sit down for awhile while they do something and eventually call you back later. For me it was 15 minutes or so, but there weren’t many ppl there at the time and I’m American.

Then you go through there, pass through a few more checks and are ask many of the same questions, then you find your bags thrown on the floor (luckily they didn’t break my camera as they’re sometimes known to do) and go through one last check before getting out. Phew!

So what is Grandpa Chirol’s name? And why did they ask you that?