Fellow Kaplan enthusiast Phil reported in to Coming Anarchy today with an account of his trip to see The Man speak in DC. Here is a brief quote:
I went to Politics and Prose Bookstore in DC last night to see Robert Kaplan speak about his new book “Imperial Grunts.” It was a good experience. ... He mentioned several times in the talk (as he does in the book) about how impressed he has been with the enlisted men, NCOs, Lt.’s and CPTs he came across during his time in the field. This drew some emotional comments later by anti-war leftists who were increduluous that these men who had murdered 20,000 and maimed 50,000 civilians were anything to be admired. There was applause after they spoke. Kaplan looked like he had dealt with this kind of thing before and responded by repeating why he admired these soldiers and Marines by referring to his actual experience.
Phil, what was the reaction to this?
Read the rest of Phil’s experience here…
If any other readers out there are going to see Kaplan, please send us your links/impressions/comments etc:
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ComingAnarchy.com » Blog Archive » Does poverty lead to military service? added these pithy words on Sep 27 05 at 11:21 am[...] Prompted to explain their reasons for joining the military, frequent commentators Eddie and Lirelou gave their reasons in the comments section here that are too good to languish in the comments section. The question: does poverty make people join the military? Both answered in the negative, citing alternatives in bold. [...]
ComingAnarchy.com » Blog Archive » A gracious meeting added these pithy words on Sep 28 05 at 2:07 am[...] Today was the day. Curzon, Ana, J.Kende and I made it to see The Man speak on Imperial Grunts. It was a pretty good crowd, no riff-raff (like in DC). Afterwards he signed books and we approached him. Curzon revealed who we were and, to our surprise(!), he thanked us for the site! He was very friendly and gracious. Curzon noted that Mr. Kaplan is very civil, and takes every question seriously. Face to face he was a class act. Go see him at one of his next appearances if you can. Leave a Reply [...]
cowlick added these pithy words on 23 Sep 05 at 11:46 pmDenigrating anti-war leftists by attributing to them cries of “Baby Killers!” is and was a disingenuous strategy that died when Cindy Sheehan and company came on the scene.
The anti-war movement today is being spear-headed by military families, remember? How could they look down on their own kids?
And about this perpetual reference to “actual experience” that Coming Anarchy people seem to be fixated on: Empirical evidence, per se, means nothing without a set of first priniciples to interpret it.
You could say, and I would agree with you, that in emotionally intense situations, such as on a field of battle, people forge relationships that are more “real” than those forged in, say, suburbia. But that is hardly a justification for going to war, isn’t it?
Kaplan, the brave-but-crack-addict-cheap supporter of war that he is, is trying to palm-off war by reference to the heartfelt relationships that poverty-stricken young men make when faced with death as a group. How cheap can you get?
Younghusband added these pithy words on 24 Sep 05 at 1:34 amFrom Phil:
Kaplan was very even keeled. His manner was like someone you were having a beer with. He was not disturbed or discomforted by the questions. Public speaking is not easy and I was impressed by the fact that he seemed at ease. He also kept trying to keep the focus on what his book was trying to do. Some questions dealt with strategic issues and policy and he pointed to the fact that his book dealt with more tactical issues, a very narrow slice rather than the larger picture. He said that for about the first three weeks or so he didn’t carry a notebook when he was embedded with a unit he was just gaining their trust.
Eddie added these pithy words on 24 Sep 05 at 7:48 amActually, most of the anti-war groups have strong ties to groups and individuals who openly espouse pro-iraqi insurgency/terrorist statements, much like Brian Becker. In addition, most of these groups are fronts for communist organizations like the WWP, organizations that still believe in the failed concept of communism and find little to nothing wrong with the oppression of tens of millions in Cuba and North Korea.
Considering the “allies” of these anti-war groups are individuals like David Duke (white supremacist) and Ramsey Clark (supporter of dictators like Saddam and Milosevic), I really doubt many military families are supporters of this movement.
In addition, the matriarch of this movement, Cindy Sheehan, is an ignorant racist. Have you heard her pontificate over the “jews” and how they run the war effort and the world? Her son chose to join and even reenlisted, and she’s perverting the cause he believed in and died for while using his death to further her own ignorant political agenda and that of her handlers.
Rumplestilskin added these pithy words on 24 Sep 05 at 10:17 pmOn the contrary, most of the people who oppose the war simply want their kids to come home.
And this “fronts for communist organizations” thing is so ridiculously paranoid, I wonder if you’re a John Bircher. Have you checked your prostate for commie hide-outs, lately?
And as far as Israel and Zionists (as opposed to Jews in general) are concerned, you should know that members of AIPAC, including the former head, are under investigation by the FBI for something amounting to treason.
And, by the way, if you think seriously equating most of the anti-war movement with terrorists, then getting between a mother and the son she is mourning over and calling her a pervert marks you as anything but a looney, then please keep on posting as much as you can: It’s not often the rabid fangs of the right show so clearly.
Eddie added these pithy words on 24 Sep 05 at 11:31 pmActually my information comes largely from liberals like David Corn (writes for the Nation), who blew the cover on these groups back in 2002 and continues to now.
Go to ANSWER’s site and read some of their literature, witness how disconnected they are from the rest of the world and reality. From their newest 8 page brochure;The global anti-war movement must be a movement of international solidarity against the U.S. empire. (Page 2)
The Iraqi people have a fundamental right to determine their own destiny…Since 1958 when a mass uprising overthrew the British-imposed king, Iraq has been a genuinely sovereign country. (Page 2)
The US kidnapping of President Aristide follows more than a century of U.S. intervention in Haiti…Since the election of Aristide to a second term in late 2000, with 92% of the vote, Washington has maintained economic sanctions against the poorest country in the Western Hemisphere. (Page 3)
From its inception in 1948, Israel has been a colonial state based on “ethnic cleansing”...[Israel] launched devastating wars against Egypt, Syria and Jordan. (Page 4)
[The Cuban] revolution remains strong and is a source of inspiration for people throughout the hemisphere. (Page 6)
Korea has been punished ever since [1953] with economic sanctions and the occupation of the southern half of the country by 37,000 US soldiers. (Page 6)
The [Bush] administration has launched a domestic war at home against the people of the United States that complements its global war for empire. (Page 7)
And yes I am happy to equate many factions of the anti-war movement with terrorists and terrorist supporters like George Galloway. The facts are simply too overwhelming, the sinister idealogy too repugnant to ignore. Considering though that there is no real or substantial anti-war movement in this country (just a shadowy band of extreme leftist groups and front groups they prop up), this whole debate is worthless anyway.
Jay added these pithy words on 25 Sep 05 at 4:34 amEddie, they’re not an “anti-war” movement; as you’ve helped illustrate, they’re actually a PSEUDO-PEACE movement, a pretend
antiwar movement. When will everyone finally get it?And Rumplestilskin, here are something for you to reflect upon:
I’m sorry for that woman’s loss, but if she wants to help creatures like that succeed, do you think she still has a right to any decent person’s respect?
Something else for you to think about:
Rumplestilskin added these pithy words on 25 Sep 05 at 2:38 pmI don’t think you understand: All these people want is for their kids to come home. If you want to refute what I am saying, then refute the idea that wanting your kid to come home is a reasonable thing.
Plus, people make political parties all the time; sometimes, these parties infiltrate mass movements. But does that mean that the rest of the people in these movements think like, or are responsible for, the infiltrating parties? Obviously, no. Cindy Sheehan and company are not responsible for a radical group infiltrating an anti-war group somewhere. In all likelyhood, the FBI has also infiltrated these anti-war groups; why don’t you, then, call ANSWER a “front for the FBI”?
Now, let’s pretend that anti-imperialism is the symptom of an ideology with no back-bone. You tell me why pro-imperialism is anything better; you tell me how invading Iraq and bringing it to the brink of civil war has helped the United States and its people in any way.
Curzon added these pithy words on 25 Sep 05 at 5:42 pmRumplestilskin, Kaplan notes in his book that most in the military voted for Bush. And that’s not just anecdotal. Polls suggest an overwhelming majority of the military and military families voted for Bush in 2004. Exit polls suggest say that includes veterans.
Cindy Sheehan is an appalling spokesman for the anti-war movement. She’s certifiabley nuts, and only got press coverage for a while because she caught the sympathy of the press.
As for Iraq, the idea that the US invasion brought it to the brink of civil war is a misunderstanding—that was coming regardless, a result of the ethnic-religious hatred brewed by Saddam Hussein. The longer he lasted, the worse the ultimate results. Better sooner than later.
Victor D. Hanson, a nominal Democratic, said it best about his party, and by proxy many in the current anti-War crowd: “The Democratic Party reminds me of the Republicans circa 1965 or so””?impotent, shrill, no ideas, conspiratorial, reactive, out-of-touch with most Americans, isolationist, and full of embarrassing spokesmen.”
Rumplestilskin added these pithy words on 25 Sep 05 at 8:02 pmMore than 100,000, some say a half-million, people in DC don’t think Cindy Sheehan is an “appaling” spokesperson who is “certifiably nuts.” Only you do, Curzon.
And, like I said, there is an FBI investigation into AIPAC underway that very strongly suggests Istraeli complicity in the Bush administration’s growing list of mistakes, especially when you consider the particular document whose passing to Israel at issue: the draft of a presidential directive regarding Iran.
Read about it here:
http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/articles/050704fa_factAnd here:
http://www.jonathanpollard.org/2004/120504.htmAnd then we can discuss who’s “certifiably nuts,” OK?
By the way, one important reason for military families voting for Bush is self interest: Obviously, if your livelihood depends on the military, then you will vote for the candidate who plans to expand the military, most of which institution’s job offerings involve, not guns, but pencils and pencil-sharpeners. But you knew that, already, no?
The overwhelming majority of people who sign up as soldiers do so because of poverty. Tell me, who would elect to put his life in danger if he had the means of buying a nice house, going to restaurants every night, and spending his days in lap of luxury? Only people who are “certifiably nuts.”
Why, the only thing these people have is the idea that they are noble defenders of freedom, and it’s yet another symptom of the perverse ideology of neoconservatism that they take this idea of being noble and use it to send poor people to their deaths, over nothing.
Iranian youth marched into battle with plastic keys to heaven around their necks; American youth march into battle with an anthem sung by an idiot signifying nothing.
Curzon added these pithy words on 25 Sep 05 at 9:27 pmThe two links in my previous comment lay out in clear detail why Ms. Sheehan is nuts. I have no idea who AIPAC is.
Your Michael Moore-esque view of the military is just wrong. People do not join the military because of poverty—they join it because of opportunity. Indeed, with sky-rocketing poverty rates, you’d think we wouldn’t have problems with getting enough people to join the military. Several commenters on this blog—Eddie, Lirelou, and others—are active military personnel. Did you guys join because of poverty?
Eddie added these pithy words on 26 Sep 05 at 1:18 amCurzon- The American Israel Public Affairs Committee (AIPAC) is known as one of the most potent influence groups on Capitol Hill.
There’s a rather interesting spy case going on with two members that is ongoing.Rumplestilskin and ilk-
Of course I joined the military because of poverty. Hitler Bush laid off my parents to help Ken Lay, starved us because we wouldn’t eat his genetically altered poision food, killed all of my homosexual friends and then orchestrated the 9/11 attacks in order to justify all of the increased military-industrial complex spending he needed to conquer the world.
And the JEWS at AIPAC told him to do all this.(Actually I joined the Navy because I was a failure, I’d dropped out of college, lost my girlfriend and decided it was time for a positive change in my life that could help me “grow up” while helping my country. My parents are steady middle class and prior military veterans themselves with 20+ years in the Army each, they joined for a meaningful career and the chance to defend their country, then stayed because Ronald Reagan gave the military a worthy purpose and helped it heal the wounds of Vietnam).
By the way buddy, I saw pictures and first-hand accounts of that “100,000” and it was far more closer to 2,000 idiots screaming “i hate bush” “free mumia” “bush hates gays” and my all time favorite “bush orchestrated 9/11”... not much “stop the war in iraq”, just a whole lot of loony left crapola.
lirelou added these pithy words on 26 Sep 05 at 5:14 amCindy Sheehan has my sympathy. To lose a son (or daughter) is hard enough, but to lose them in a cause that one doesn’t believe in cannot help but drive anyone over the edge. God bless her! I likewise don’t agree that everyone opposed to the war is a political extremist, although it does appear that the most vociferous of these do have radical political agendas that they would be airing whether there was a war on or not. But, as an old retired SF type who is still in daily contact with today’s soldiers, I must advise friend Rumplestilskin that his paradigm is flawed. I joined the Army for adventure. On the day that World War III started, I wanted to be hanging out the side of an aircraft with a hundred and sixty pounds of parachute, weapon, ammunition, and equipment strapped to various parts of my body, give a steely-eyed glare at the onion domed Kremlin rolling by below, nod back to my 11 team-mates hanging on to their static lines, and leap into the darkness thinking: “Repent you Scumbag Commie Bastards, your hour has come.” Thankfully, the reality of over twenty-seven years military life proved a bit less eventful. Todays soldiers, sailors, airmen, and Marines join for a variety of reasons. Greater economic opportunity does attract its share, but so does educational opportunity, adventure (see above), boredom (with life, current home situation, Mom, girlfriend, boyfriend, whatever), tradition (my Pappy was a paratrooper, Marine, pilot, etc), civic pride (every citizen should serve), ambition (I want to run for Congress, and being a veteran will give me greater authority in defence affairs), patriotism (I hate the goddam military, but I want to serve my country in war), and what I call the “I’ll show them” factor (I’m an Arab-American Muslim Marine, asshole, you gotta problem with that?). The poverty quotient is lower today than it was when I entered (1962), and we had a draft then. We are (and were) not the dispossessed of the earth, foot soldiers in the capitalist war on the weak, fighters in every cause save our own.
J.Kende added these pithy words on 26 Sep 05 at 8:23 am“Of course I joined the military because of poverty. Hitler Bush laid off my parents to help Ken Lay, starved us because we wouldn’t eat his genetically altered poision food, killed all of my homosexual friends and then orchestrated the 9/11 attacks in order to justify all of the increased military-industrial complex spending he needed to conquer the world.
And the JEWS at AIPAC told him to do all this.”Mind if I get that quote framed?
Rumple S. added these pithy words on 26 Sep 05 at 11:41 pmThe freeperesque, compulsive repetition of Limbaugh & co. notwithstanding, I found this part of your post remarkably honest:
“I joined the Navy because I was a failure, I’d dropped out of college, lost my girlfriend and decided it was time for a positive change in my life that could help me “grow up”Â? while helping my country.”
Would you have needed the military to take control of your life for you had you been more responsible or otherwise had had the means to becoming an independent, responsible person with a degree, a good job, and a girlfriend?
I mention this because it is a right-wing talking point that unsuccessful people, like you were, are unsuccessful because they are lazy, stupid, and irresponsible, that they have nobody to blame but themselves.
Isn’t it ironic, then, to find unsuccessful people—lazy, stupid, and irresponsible, by right-wing definition—throwing themselves into the arms of the State, expecting to be brought-up as if the State is supposed serve as their mommy and daddy?
If you really want to sacrifice for your country, then why don’t you do it for FREE? Until you do, all this talk of more-patriotic-than-thou overcompensation for feeling inferior is nothing but SPAM, buddy.
You serve in the military because you get a paycheck; if you didn’t get a paycheck, you wouldn’t serve. Period. So save your military equivalent of the Welfare Queen sob story for someone who believes it: you are no more patriotic than anybody else who does work—for pay.
And, by the way, it isn’t George Bush that pays your bills; it is the public. All George Bush does is funnel a trickle into your pocket, and a flood into the bank accounts of corporations, all the while filling your head with all this ridiculous garbage about being a “freedom fighter” so you’ll work for even less.
You really want to grow up? Then face the facts: You are a worker—for pay. Nothing less, nothing more. You wake up in the morning and go to work because you expect to get paid. Just like everybody else. Let you find out that your next paycheck is not forthcoming, and all of this “I joined because I want to sacrifice for my country” business will evaporate into thin air like the gas that it is.
Your interests lie with other workers, which happen to be 99% of the people that surround you. If you really want to grow up, you’d put aside these childish illusions that you entertain and face facts: You have more in common with those poor bastard Iraqis whose heads you see blown off on amateur porn sites than you will ever, ever have in common with an arrogant chickenhawk like Bush who smirks in your face while calling you a “true patriot.”
Eddie added these pithy words on 27 Sep 05 at 12:42 pm1. (First of all) I do not like Rush Limbaugh, Sean Hannity, Bill O’Reilly, G. Gordon Liddy and that brand of loud-mouth, ignorant and arrogrant hacks.
2. I chose the military after careful deliberation over other options like Americorps, accepting a promotion as a supervisor at a communications company and heading overseas to do relief work. It wasn’t about a paycheck or benefits (though college money is very nice), it was about the culture of self-improvement and personal and professional advancement in the military. The fact males in my family have long joined the military and found success, happiness and self-improvement didn’t weigh lightly either. However, folks in my family do not “serve for a paycheck”Â? or treat this as a “job”Â?. Its “duty”Â?, something I’ve learned a lot about in more than 3 years in the Navy. “Duty”Â? matters more than a paycheck or benefits. “Duty”Â? entails sacrificing for the mission and for others if necessary. Appreciation of and adherence to “Duty”Â? means if this nation were in dire straits, and for whatever reason we weren’t getting paid, 99.9% of us would not mutiny or stop working, we would continue to perform the mission. You think in the middle of a war a sailor or marine is going to give a damn about their paycheck in the heat of battle or the midst of danger?
3.Another beauty of our unique American society is the degree to which we take care of our own. You could argue, “he claims that but what about a serviceman with a family?”Â? Trust me, as we’ve seen time and time again in the midst of war or tragedy, people (military and civilians) band together to take care of military families. That’s part of the honor and respect military service represents in our society, something most Americans understand and cherish but hard-headed extremist leftists don’t.
4.I would gladly serve my country for “FREE”Â? if that’s all it could offer me, however the military tends to require you to have a bank account where it can route money twice a month or you can’t get past in processing. Our society isn’t communist or some other nightmarish system (which highly disappoints you I’m sure), it happens to be capitalist.
5.Please keep in mind the hundreds of thousands of servicemen who put their lives on the line everyday, facing possible grievous injury or even death from any number of real and threatening dangers; i.e. IEDS, insurgent attacks, suicide bombers, malfunctioning vehicles and aircraft, highly dangerous accidents on places like aircraft carrier flight decks and ship engine rooms, etc etc. You can assault my patriotism as I engage in a debate with you, but please don’t insult theirs. We’re honored the citizenry of the nation pays us generously and hope we make the nation proud every time we perform our mission our nation’s elected leaders assign us. When we do fail, trust me, we try doubly harder the next time to make amends.
6.I’d love to grow up but nutjobs like you just keep bringing out the sophomore Student Congress legislator in me. I am not a worker, I’m a sailor. I toil every day not to get paid, but to get the job done and help others get their jobs done, so we can all complete our mission and have some down time. Seven months out of the year I’m out to sea, unable to spend my earnings but very able to appreciate the work I do and the lessons I’m learning that will remain with me my entire life.
7. Its hilarious how you seem to think I’m better than you because I’m “more patriotic”Â?. Actually, I think “Ëœm superior to you because I live in the oft harsh but rewarding real world, you’re in loony land where John Kerry is the president after Darth Bush and Diebold admit they fudged the Ohio election results, terrorism is solved by negotiation and compromise, all corporations admit their evil intentions and repent for their capitalist sins by giving away all their products for free without going out of business, the wealth of the rich is redistributed to the masses and America cedes global leadership and responsibility to the Chinese, Russians, French, Venezuelans, North Koreans and Iranians because it must atone for its imperialist outrages as the “4th Reich”Â? under Bush.
