Entry details

Curzon
Author

Curzon

Date

August 12th, 2005

Tags

,

Comments

16 Comments so far.
Add yours.

Chirol compels me

Is a line in the sand our best policy? A rebuttal to my comrade’s recent post on dealing with North Korea.

1. Clinton is at fault because North Korea broke the 1994 agreement.
Wrong. While neither Democrat or Republican, I take a dim view of those on the right who tend to immediately and anachronistically blame him for problems occuring during the present administration. Though the North Koreans indeed renegged on their agreement, it should firstly not come as a surprise nor as unprecendented. The Soviets broke almost every agreement we had with them but it was still better to have some sort of framework than nothing. Some order is better than total chaos. Estimates put North Korea’s nuclear arsenal at around 10 now. Had there been no restrictions at all, it would almost certainly be much higher now.

I don’t put all the blame on Clinton, but since he was the last guy responsible I do hold him accountable. One reason I’ve gone as far as to think about nuking North Korea is that I believe war is inevitable. North Korea is not on the verge of collapse. The country is as militarized as ever. And they now have nukes, making any end game potentially catastrophic.

Had Clinton gone through with an invasion of North Korea, which he was considering in 1994, and had Carter (acting as freelance appeaser) not sabotaged Clinton’s efforts, we could have taken our a pre-nuclear Kim Jong Il. That would have been the supremely moral decision. Before you think of the death toll, note that this would have prevented as many as two million North Koreans from starving to death, freed more than 20 million from the yolk of DPRK slavery and given them the chance to pursue economic and personal freedom, would have eliminated the threat of WMD assaults on allies ROK and Japan, and would have allowed the US to more 30,000 troops from quasi-hostile territory and put them in a country where they would be more 1.) useful and 2.) appreciated.

What if war does happen this year, or next, or later? And half a dozen US cities, or Seoul, or Tokyo, are engulfed in a sea of fire? Bush and Clinton will both have much to answer for.

3. Our deterrent
A line in the sand is the most important deterrent, but what else? We need to make clear that for every nuke used by North Korea against us or our allies that we’ll use 100 (which should be fairly clear anyway).

This is, forgive me, Cold War thinking. Deterrents are irrelevant. We have enough nukes to turn North Korea into the new East Sea. We are not dealing with a peer competitor trying to match our might. Rather, we have a maurading bandit on the run threatening the law and order of the countryside. He will not be deterred by threats of total retaliation. He knows that if he launches a nuke, he’s a goner. But it’s the only thing he has to threaten the goliaths that surround him. A line in the sand is dangerous for us because it will tell him exactly how far he can go, and he can push as an advantage at the negotiating table.

Conclusion
As we’ve seen, though Iraq was clearly an international threat, it was not a pressing one. Iran, while definitely an up and coming threat, still has time whereas North Korea is a problem today. They do have all three forms of WMD guaranteed and the question for the present administration is not about good and bad solutions, it’s about the best of the worst. It’s already too late.

Here we agree. Since it is too late, what do we do?

Considering premptive war/nuclear strikes is not a bad idea. Do we pick the time and place or do we let the bad guys do it? Also, destroying the Pyongyang regime could scare the Iranians with the real threat that we will not allow them to finish their nuclear program. So fire away, baby, fire away.

Comments to this entry

Daniel Nexon
August 12, 2005
7:44 am
Why didn't Clinton go ahead with an airstrike? Millions dead in Seoul; inadequate intelligence about where the facilities and materials were. Invasion? Many more.
Curzon
August 12, 2005
9:32 am
As the above link notes in passing, he was thinking about it seriously, there were air raid drills in Seoul, and I ask you: forecasts were for AS MANY AS ONE MILLION dead; over the past decade since, ABOUT TWO MILLION have died. In a pure moral comparison, the decision to take out Kim as soon as possible would have been the better move. At least from a relative point of view (of course, we're thinking about us and our allies long before anyone else... it's just a consideration).
Kushibo
August 12, 2005
10:32 am
This is so fraught with questionable assumptions, I don't know where to begin.

But I will tell you I find any analysis of 1994's tense situation highly suspect if it includes mention of air raid drills in Seoul: at the time monthly air raid drills were the norm: 2:00 p.m. the 15th of every month. You could set your watch by them, literally.

(They are now less regular, about tri-monthly.)

But tourist journalists with no capacity for deep analysis of Korean issues came to Seoul in time for the war, and this was a major piece of their evidence of the situation in South Korea. That they completely screwed the pooch on this very obvious piece of info makes me wonder what other bit of analysis they got wrong.
Eddie
August 12, 2005
10:34 am
Well let's all give Jimmy Carter a big pat on the back. The man who raged against Bush for all the dead Iraqis needs to answer for all the dead North Koreans he condemned to die because of his pathetic need to build a legacy (since his presidency was an utter disaster).

What other options exist besides a preemptive war and waiting for the inevitable nuclear holocaust?

How credible is the option of a more conservative government in South Korea pursuing a policy towards unification by clandestinely pushing NK generals/elites to overthrow Kim?

What are the chances we could get China and Russia onboard to depose him (preferably the Chinese, with Russian & American support)? Have the North Koreans liberated by the Chinese, and let the Chinese (and other Asian nations) work alongside South Korea to rebuild the country.

These don't seem very likely, but are they possible enough to be considered possible routes?
Eddie
August 12, 2005
10:44 am
Global Security.org (http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/ops/dprk_nuke.htm)
has a good resource center for the military build-up behind the 1993-1994 tensions. Patriot missiles were being deployed, the first RSOI exercises were conducted (now a staple of ROK-US defense efforts) and various other measures were undertaken by US forces to prepare to strike and/or defend against NK. Consider also Chinese forces were being deployed in preperation to assist in a defense of North Korea. It was highly serious, and could have become even more so, had Jimmy Carter not undermined the US position and Kim's father not died.
Daniel Nexon
August 12, 2005
1:02 pm
I know from discussions with people involved with the decision - some of whom are my colleagues- that they decided the risks involved in a strike were too great given the possibility of success. No one wanted war on the peninsula.

Those numbers are for Seoul alone. Although few doubt the US would win a conflict, the causality figures would be enormous. From a political standpoint, it is far easier to let people starve to death under an oppressive regime than to condemn an ally's civilians to death, let alone members of your own military.

There are also worse-case fears about North Korean bioweapons, but that's a subject for another day.
Daniel Nexon
August 12, 2005
1:04 pm
BTW, my understanding (third-hand) is that the areas the US was contemplating attacking now appear to have been empty of nuclear stuff (that's the technical term).
Mutantfrog
August 12, 2005
1:13 pm
I think Eddie brings up the most significant factor- namely the death of Kim Il Sung and the ascension of his son, Kim Jong Il.

As bad as the father was, he was still a revolutionary and had some kind of twisted moral justification for his actions. His son is nothing but a spoiled baby who became the dictator of his own gigantic playground, and he will do absolutely everything in his power to hold onto that, regardless of how many people he kills.
Chirol
August 12, 2005
4:42 pm
"freelance appeaser" should be immediately added to the dictionary. I have to say I almost fell out of my chair. Fabulous.

Also, with my comments on Clinton, I didn't mean to completely absolve him of all blame, but to rather even the playing field by countering the often heard argument that NK broke its agreement. Would an attack/invasion have been better during his term anyway? Naturally.

Eddie: I think getting the Asians on board would be pretty difficult. However, the ideal solution is that this is a job "asian boys should be doing for themselves"

It would also need to be a very multilateral effort as I don't imagine China's neighbors would enjoying seeing it flex its military might like that. Besides, convincing NK's neighbors of the urgency of the situation and that they'll be the ones taking most of the casualities would be pretty difficult.
maskull
August 12, 2005
6:04 pm
Pre-emptive strikes. 1) N. Korea. 2) Iran. 3) Syria.

These children conform to the MacDonald Triad (Wikipedia):

"Cruelty to animals. Most children can be cruel to animals, such as pulling the legs off of spiders, but future serial killers often kill larger animals, like dogs and cats, and frequently for their solitary enjoyment rather than to impress peers." N. Korea. K. J. Il in his solitary splendor. Nuke him big. Time's awasting.

"Firestarting, invariably just for the thrill of destroying things." Syria personified. Invade. Seize the northern 7 provinces. Turn this land over to the Kurds. Resettle the prior inhabitants in southern Syria, France, Germany & possibly - Spain. Turkey could help with this.

"Bedwetting beyond the age when children normally grow out of such behaviour." Iran. Invade. Take the northermost territory, bordering on the Caspian. Create an Independent Kurdistan, reaching from the Caspian to the Mediterranean.

Build a pipeline for Russian oil, from the Caspian to the Mediterranean. Let the Kurds handle it, since it will be entirely on Kurdish territory. The Kurdish Pipeline could also take all the Iraqi oil.

Give Saudi Arabia a heads up, with a package guarantee.
Eddie
August 13, 2005
2:19 am
Chirol: point taken. I wonder what if anything would force the Chinese to stop supporting the North Koreans.
J. Kende
August 13, 2005
5:32 am
"How credible is the option of a more conservative government in South Korea pursuing a policy towards unification by clandestinely pushing NK generals/elites to overthrow Kim?

What are the chances we could get China and Russia onboard to depose him (preferably the Chinese, with Russian & American support)? Have the North Koreans liberated by the Chinese, and let the Chinese (and other Asian nations) work alongside South Korea to rebuild the country.

These don't seem very likely, but are they possible enough to be considered possible routes?"

That is ideal. None of us know how to get it done though, or we would be standing on a stage accepting the moral world's version of a geostrategic nobel prize right about now.

The seeming strategy of the Bush administration of slowly encircling, enticing, and ultimately cooking the frog... somehow... is mindnumbingly risky. But if it works, and it would have to be because of all of what the rest of us don't know, then it is Bush that will be standing on that stage. He would deserve it big time for pulling this off, while it looks to the rest of us as if the clock is just ticking with not enough happening.

The third choice of nuke heavy pre-emption that Curzon and Maskull see as the only relatively effective option at this point would turn the entire table of the world up into the air, with us having no clue what would come next. It's a very scary option that really is a last resort. The question Curzon is pushing (rightfully) is whether we have reached the point where it's time for the last resort.

Aside from North Korea, I do like the strategy Maskull brings up for dealing with Syria and Iran if the current encircle and pressure policy doesn't start to pay higher dividends. The Kurds have been nothing but friendly to us for a good while now. They want the kind of liberal institutions we are seeking in the region and they will be more than happy to safeguard regional energy flows for all parties concerned. It feels like it's just about time for another one of Bush's trademark surprise... but if something of the sort doesn't happen in the Middle East w/ Syria or Iran pretty soon I'd say we start giving a bit less carrot and start brandishing the Kurdish stick.
ron Patterson
August 14, 2005
12:11 am
yes appeasement has been a disaster, but I think a war would have had unexpected side effects; the effects of biological weapons, Chinese reaction, etc. . But we should now seeriosly consider the military option. From a moral stand point to allow another two million North Koreans to starve is intolerable. Make South Korea choose sides. I believe that there is litttle support for North Korea in the Chinese leadership. So increase the troops and equipment in the South, increase U-2 flyovers. Escalate naval manuveurs, "shake the bushes" . Make it very clear "regime change" is our policy. A non nuclear Kim is still a psychopath. If we dilly dally with talk we risk seeing the U.S. becoming unwelcome in Asia . Make a stand!!!
kushibo
August 15, 2005
12:24 pm
Have the North Koreans liberated by the Chinese, and let the Chinese (and other Asian nations) work alongside South Korea to rebuild the country.
My fear is that once the Chinese do that, they won't give it back. Ã¥”¦Â§Ã¦Å“Â?é®® (Inner Choson) will become the easternmost or the people's provinces.

ron, you come to the conclusion that we should use the military option. You know what, we have. The United Nations forces and the Republic of Korea did try to wrest the Democratic People's Republic of Korea from its leadership and you know what happened? They shot at us! Killed a whole bunch of us, too. Hundreds of thousands, maybe millions.

Sure, Kim Jong-il and his cadres are an evil lot, but the country is full of people who could stand together and remove them, but they don't. Should we risk the lives of people who already suffered (during the first Korean War) to save people who won't save themselves?

You know which North Koreans I feel sorry for? I feel sorry for the ones who do try to escape but find themselves hiding out in China. China, our wonderful economic partner, who likes to round up North Koreans and send them back to the DPRK for certain torture, imprisonment, and possibly death. Not just the "repatriated" but their families, too.

If we really want to do something, put pressure on China to stop the round-ups. Put pressure on them to let the North Koreans go to third countries. Set up facilities around the world to take them (South Korea is pretty much the only one right now). Bleed North Korea dry.

That's one problem with nukes. "Turn the country into a parking lot" is the only thing their good for, and that stifles creativity.

Backs to Beijing: Boycott the 2008 Olympics as long as the PRC is repatriating North Korean refugees.
asiapundit
August 15, 2005
1:23 pm
late monday links

Is Taiwan a renegade province, independent country or a US protectorate?... Japan renounced its sovereignty over Taiwan, but did not turn over that sovereignty to either the PRC in Beijing or the ROC in Taiwan. Neither the PRC nor the
Live From The FDNF
August 24, 2005
2:39 am
South Korea's Delusion

Curzon of Coming Anarchy responds to Chirol's analysis of the need for a "line in the sand".