Comments on: 21st Century Education Part I

By: ComingAnarchy.com » Blog Archive » 21st Century Education Part III

ComingAnarchy.com » Blog Archive » 21st Century Education Part III — Sun, 19 Jun 2005 11:23:59 +0000

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By: Mike

Mike — Sat, 18 Jun 2005 05:50:21 +0000

No we do have college prep and tech prep tracks once you reach high school but we do attempt to get everyone into college, perhaps a mistake, I don’t know.

By: Dan

Dan — Fri, 17 Jun 2005 17:21:51 +0000

In America we educate (or attempt to anyway) everyone, while in a place like Japan or many European countries after their equivalent of middle school only college prep students go onto high school, the rest go onto to the work force or a trade school.

So America doesn’t even try to individualize the education of its students, prefering a homogenous blog to even basic specialization.

That’s not a good thing.

By: ComingAnarchy.com » Blog Archive » 21st Century Education Part II

ComingAnarchy.com » Blog Archive » 21st Century Education Part II — Fri, 17 Jun 2005 13:07:15 +0000

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By: Mike

Mike — Fri, 17 Jun 2005 11:06:57 +0000

The States (while very very bad) looks much worse than it actually is. In America we educate (or attempt to anyway) everyone, while in a place like Japan or many European countries after their equivalent of middle school only college prep students go onto high school, the rest go onto to the work force or a trade school. Our test scores reek, but our college prep only test scores are competitive with the rest of the world.

By: snow

snow — Fri, 17 Jun 2005 10:51:45 +0000

Well, Kenneth, I think I can agree with you there, on the mediocrity of the school system, though I’m thinking of Canada and Korea, as those are the only ones I’m familiar with. It’s too bad there seem to be alot of problems in the system in the US, too, since the States seems to lead in many areas, it’s too bad there are so many problems in such an important area as this. You’re right, quality education is critical.

By: Dan

Dan — Fri, 17 Jun 2005 09:33:23 +0000

So primary and secondary. Then I agree with you. It's garbage, worthless useless inefficient terrible garbage.

By: Kenneth

Kenneth — Fri, 17 Jun 2005 05:08:11 +0000

I’m referring to the whole rotten edifice of mandatory education.

By: Dan

Dan — Fri, 17 Jun 2005 02:58:59 +0000

Are we talking about primary, secondary, or tertiary, or graduate education?

By: Kenneth

Kenneth — Fri, 17 Jun 2005 02:56:58 +0000

The most suprising part of AP (college-level in high school) English was that it turned me on to poetry.

It might have turned you on to poetry, but that doesn’t mean it has a similar effect on most students.

Snow: That school’s general crappiness must be dealt with does not exempt the education system from criticism. I still stand by my original position that the public education system (in its current form) is an economic distortion, a tremendous misallocation of resources that should be fundamentally restructured (if not altogether abolished).

By: snow

snow — Fri, 17 Jun 2005 02:40:02 +0000

Yes, you do have to wonder about alot of the useless stuff you learn in school, but at the same time, make the best of it for your own ends. Don’t turn your nose up at something just because it doesnt seem interesting. We’re all required to take subjects we have no interest in, so the best thing to do in that case (such as with Literature, or for me, a science) is to really try to get something out of it. You won’t be in there for too long and you can gain some new perspectives on things from something that’s far from your interest. I actually liked the Geography and Physics classes I took cause they introduced me to a scientific way of looking at things. The worst thing you can do is sit there and waste your time in a class, make it interesting for yourself and get out of it what you can for yourself.

By: Dan

Dan — Fri, 17 Jun 2005 02:05:33 +0000

Literature, if one likes it, should be read on one's own time. The most surprising part of AP (college-level in high school) English was that it turned me on to poetry. What geostrategist doesn't love Exit, Pursued by a Bear. What 4GWarrior doesn't see his field pimped in Harlem, or instructor for reputable school see himself in Theme for English B. And who, having a hated office job, doesn't feel empathy in Dolor. Literature can spur creativity or drive, if taught well. If.

By: Kenneth

Kenneth — Fri, 17 Jun 2005 00:52:04 +0000

BTW, Curzon, like the post you link too. Formal education is way overhyped.

By: Kenneth

Kenneth — Thu, 16 Jun 2005 22:07:46 +0000

Mike: yes, I know, but the function of schooling is to equip the new generation to find jobs. Forcing people to learn stuff that they may or may not like and won’t make them a dime is just unfair and stupid. Literature, if one likes it, should be read on one’s own time.

By: Curzon

Curzon — Thu, 16 Jun 2005 07:03:31 +0000

Dan: as a former adjunct professor at a reputable state university, I can tell you that your experiences at community college were not unique to that institution. I was appalled at how many students couldn’t proofread their own work, how many knew nothing of a subject after a semester of class, and how many people who were unqualified for college in the first place nonetheless preparing for grad school entrance exams. Some students were top of their class who I will keep in contact with for years to come. Most were forgetable at best.

Today, education is just to keep people out of the work force for 4-5 years, let them grow up a little, show that they can do a minimum level of work, get them to subsidize professors who could never hold real jobs (I specifically mean Womens/Ethnic/Sociology/etc studies). 40 years ago it was a guaranteed meal ticket. Today, it’s the bare minimum to get most remotely decent jobs, although it doesn’t even guarantee that.

Saru also has a great post on life after college.

By: Mike

Mike — Thu, 16 Jun 2005 05:09:43 +0000

It would depend on the literature I suppose. Some knowledge of literature is must if you want to consider yourself an educated man. Just because something is not “marketable” doesn’t mean that it doesn’t enhance your thinking and worldview. Reading poetry will never make you a dime, but it will make you a better man (depending upon the poetry of course).

By: Kenneth

Kenneth — Thu, 16 Jun 2005 05:04:22 +0000

Speaking of school, it’s ALMOST SUMMER! WHOO-HOO! LIBERATION!

By: Kenneth

Kenneth — Thu, 16 Jun 2005 04:59:50 +0000

I would echo strongly the sentiments of your microecon teacher. As a 15 year old highschool student in a public school, I have to say that mandatory education isn’t exactly a paradigm of economization. For one thing, we learn a bunch of useless crap (like literature) that has no market value whatsoever, and represents time and effort that would be better spent learning grammar. Since the whole thing’s administered by a distant, insulated bureaucracy they’ve no incentive to do things effectively; indeed, just the opposite: things go downhill and they can “justify” an increased budget. It’s time schools were fine tuned to respond to market signals rather than the arbitrary edicts of some jumped-up fat cat in Parliament.

By: Dan

Dan — Thu, 16 Jun 2005 01:17:31 +0000

Indeed, Mike. The first time I heard college as an institution seriously criticized was from my Microeconomcis teachers. “This whole place is to determine if you work hard, are smart, or both. It shouldn’t require four years and thousands of dollars to do that!”

By: Mike

Mike — Thu, 16 Jun 2005 00:30:54 +0000

Good points, I have never had the perspective you do as teacher. I guess what I want to say is that education is learning how to learn, and at some point a student reaches “critical mass” (or level 4) where they can teach themselves most things they need to suceed. However, that point differs for all different kinds of people and maturity levels. I had never thought about it like that, I still think that what higher education is in America will change, but I don’t know what will replace it yet. I had never thought about it from the human network point though, thanks.

By: Dan

Dan — Wed, 15 Jun 2005 23:38:43 +0000

Mike,

As a college lecturer, and once-and-future-student, let me add something

I went to Georgia Tech before I dropped out (I plan to return at some point) and I can tell you after working at two different majors that the modern American university cannot survive in its present incarnation. It is vastly overpriced (even a good school like GT which is great value relative to a place like Harvard) for what you are actually getting.

Besides forcing people to think in areas they are not used to, a good deal of the value of college comes from weeding out people who can’t think.

Before I taught, I never would have believed that.

I taught community college classes. Relatively quickly, I could see students who

1. Cannot follow complex instructions (handful)
2. Can follow complex instructions – community college level (most students)
3. Can proactively solve problems without reference to the instructor — could be college level (handful)
4. Explores new ares by themselves — could be grad-school level (1, maybe 2)

So one reason college is expensive is that it is a human-network that has the difficult job of sorting people over how they perform a variety of tasks over a several year period.

Now high school education? Don’t get me started that is a disaster and I have no idea how to fix it.

Exactly right.

By: Mike

Mike — Wed, 15 Jun 2005 22:18:34 +0000

Another point, if you have the will to succeed a college education is unnecessary. Because it so difficult to get into college in China a great many people become entrepreneurs and live much better lives than their contemporaries who went off to school. While not everyone is a Steve Jobs or a Bill Gates I believe that if pushed or forced (by economic conditions) the American entrepreneurial spirit will respond to education’s diminished importance in providing a livelihood.

Look at school today. Outside of a technical engineering/CS degree what are you learning in school that you can’t learn by going down to the public library or better yet going online at home? I went to Georgia Tech before I dropped out (I plan to return at some point) and I can tell you after working at two different majors that the modern American university cannot survive in its present incarnation. It is vastly overpriced (even a good school like GT which is great value relative to a place like Harvard) for what you are actually getting. Now high school education? Don’t get me started that is a disaster and I have no idea how to fix it.

By: Mike

Mike — Wed, 15 Jun 2005 22:08:55 +0000

Entry-level service jobs were not meant to be careers. Basically what is happening is that the “good old days” are coming back and people are going to have to work harder to make the same dollar. 40 hour week doesn’t cut it? Too bad, you want your kids to have a better life right? I am not just talking about working harder, but working smarter. Guys who used to do random carpentry jobs on housing sites might now have to up their skill level to make the same wages that they used to. I used to lay carpet, install hardwood floors, tile that kind of stuff for $7.50 an hour. I got that job in the summer of ‘03 working in middle Georgia. This was at the height of the “recession”, but no one wanted to work at entry-level wages in the heat, but you wouldn’t believe all the guys I knew bitching about the “lack of work”. Hell they just didn’t want to lay carpet. My point is, wages have been sweet, work has been comfortable for a long time in this country. I am afraid those days are disapearing for those without a college education.