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Curzon
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Curzon

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April 11th, 2005

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We’ve Created A Monster…

Adamu and Saru mentioned China in the comments section of my previous post: “If the Chinese government is so intent on stirring up anti-Japanese sentiment and using it as a lever against Japan, why have they suppressed news coverage of this?” That’s a welcome segue into my second and final post on this topic: that China’s anti-Japanese nationalism is a modern invention. Here is it’s history.

For forty years, from the victory of the Communists in 1949 until the Tiananmen riots in 1989, China was remarkably pro-Japanese. The Rising Sun was a symbol of non-Western economic success, a country that had stuck it to the White Man. There capitalism was seen as benign: to paraphrase Mao Zedong, “they’re capitalist, but not really.” Relations were comparatively good through Mao’s reign, according to Wikipedia:

In China, to foster the newly found friendship to Japan [that began in 1972, the year China and Japan normalized their relationship], the Communist Government under Mao Zedong ostensibly suppressed the mention of the Nanking Massacre from public discourse and media, which the Communist Party directly controlled.

… and this continued through the 1980s. There were slight blips with the school textbook issue and the surfacing of the Nanjing Massacre as a political issue. The infamous memorial shown below was built in 1986. But by and large, relations between Japan and China were great, worrying many American strategic planners. For those of you who have read Samuel Huntington’s Clash of Civilizations, you may remember that his primary concern was that Japan would leave the Western sphere and team up with China. Today, that seems laughable. At the time, it was considered a real threat by some of the world’s best geopolitical thinkers.

Then came Tiananmen Square. Threatened with internal collapse, the government realized that it had to manufacture a stronger sense of national pride to survive. This nationalism was based on covering up the government’s own failures—30 million dead in the Great Leap Forward and the disastorous Cultural Revolution—which was achieved by pointing the finger at outsiders. Said otherwise, “the sense of being humiliated/aggrieved is fundamental to the nationalist identity in China.” (Or at least it was after 1989.) The convenient bugaboo was Japan, and the state began a new campaign in the media and education, taking aim at Japan’s invasion fifty years earlier. The students raised on the anti-Japan bile are now pissed off youngsters, and only now has China’s government realized that it’s created a monster it cannot control.

The manufactured nature of China’s anti-Japanese was driven home to my own trip through China with MutantFrog in 2003. We visited the Nanjing Massacre Memorial, where there is precious little evidence cited to support the specious claim that 300,000 were killed (widely believed outside of China to be a three-fold exaggeration). The memorial was filled with emotional appeals based on a few buried corpses, pictures of old people sporting nasty scars, alleged testimonies, forged photographs, and totalitarian artwork. This sculture, with a plaster bullet hole carved into the wall, is the main exhibit as you approach the entrance.

But consider the irony when compared with this bullet-riddled wall of a Tibetan Buddhist temple in Xi’an. Here, the bullet holes are real. The statue is new, the original destroyed by China’s own zealous Red Guard in the late 1960s.

Saru’s question is a good one: “If the Chinese government is so intent on stirring up anti-Japanese sentiment and using it as a lever against Japan, why have they suppressed news coverage of this?” Adamu gives a great answer: “Anti-Japanese sentiment only works when it’s internal and not actually directed anywhere real.”

Here’s how I see it: China’s political leaders see what is happening in neighboring South Korea. There, public perception has been distorted to the point where the younger generation has a more positive view of North Korea and China than the US and Japan. While the bureaucracy in the Foreign Ministry and Defense Ministry are realist and pro-American, the politicians elected by the increasingly irrational public are way out of their league. South Korea has painted itself into a corner and public sentiment will handicap its foreign policy for decades to come.

This is one advantage to China’s authoritarian, nominally communist, government. On the mainland, the realists are not just the bureacracy but the leadership as well because the public can’t choose its leaders… yet. And the current leadership fear a democratic future where rabid public sentiment similar to South Korea will limit manueverability in foreign affairs. China wants to calm the protestors down—they never meant for them to get this excited. And that, my friends, is why they are blocking media coverage and are trying to stop the current protests from spiraling out of control.

NOTE: Ming, who I linked to in the previous post, followed up in his blog by writing “I dont think the article of cominganarchy . com is worth reading.” The inability to accept opposing viewpoints was another hallmark of debate in China that I witnessed in my journey from Shanghai to Urumqi, and another reason China’s leaders fear the future. Many people my age in China expressed bitter hatred for Japan—not historical Japan, but modern Japan—yet were unable to articulate why. “They’re just so… bad.” And rational arguments to the contrary were shrugged off.

SECOND NOTE: Another historical perspective available here via Japundit.

Comments to this entry

Saru
April 11, 2005
6:42 pm
I agree with your conclusion about China's actions to block media coverage. Anti-Japan sentiment is a monstor indeed.

There is no doubt in my mind that the Party could have prevented these demonstrations from occuring. To quote a friend of mine, "the first person off of the bus [headed to a protest site] would have gotten their skull cracked, and everyone else would have turned back around and gotten back on that bus."

The fact that these protests occured at all is a sign that the government allowed them to happen. But as you correctly point out, there is no advantage in the protests getting out of hand because they then run the risk of turning on the Party itself.

I read things thus: pressure had to released, so the government let things run their course, keeping a close watch all the while, just in case things took a turn for the worse. I read somewhere (sorry, I don't recall where) that the protest organizer had said he received what amounted to silent consent from the authorities to go ahead with the protest. That there were no broken heads (at least, none to my knowledge) seems to bear out his story. The media black out amounts to a reigning in of anti-Japan sentiment, which as Adamu implied has no real long-term benefit for anyone involved.
Adamu
April 11, 2005
6:54 pm
Good post on the history of relations, I was kind of fuzzy on that.

Tiananmen was actually one of the few times when Japan actually stood up to a country on the basis of human rights violations, joining with Western countries in condemning the CCP's actions. They didn't stop their ODA to China, though (at least for very long).

I wonder how this mass protest will pan out? Maybe it will ironically result in *improved* relations between the two governments, although people's perceptions, especially in China, won't be as easy to correct.
Curzon
April 11, 2005
7:20 pm
The state of government bilateral relations hinges on China's stance on Japan's UNSC seat. Japan has the best shot of all the candidates: they dole out ODA in excess all over the world, they are backed by all the other veto-weilding members (the US, the UK, France, and Russia), and they stand a better chance of sweeping Africa than any other UNSC candidate. The Koreas have declared they will oppose Japan's candidacy, but who cares. The actual voting process for membership hasn't yet been decided -- vetos may or may not be in effect. If China takes the plunge and vetos Japans membership, assuming it can, expect relations to get much, much worse.

Considering that China is now demanding an apology from Japan (!), don't expect good things ahead.

More interesting articles:
http://www.financialexpress-bd.com/index3.asp?cnd=4/12/2005&section_id=5&newsid=18563&spcl=no

http://www.plenglish.com/article.asp?ID=%7BA17C891D-C306-4AB2-A6DF-A122D555D975%7D&language=EN

http://www.cbc.ca/news/viewpoint/vp_yu/20050411.html

http://www.kansascity.com/mld/kansascity/news/world/11367118.htm

http://www.iht.com/bin/print_ipub.php?file=/articles/2005/04/11/news/china.html
Jing
April 11, 2005
7:31 pm
"China's anti-Japanese nationalism is a modern invention"

Why yes, certainly there was no anti-Japanese nationalism in the early 20th century, none at all.

Saru
April 11, 2005
7:38 pm
Can anyone here point me to articles, blogs, websites, etc... that criticize these textbooks by citing specific examples of objectionable passages? I am not being a Japan apologist here, but I think it is fair to ask for a foundation upon which these criticisms are based.

For the record, I have read the textbook, so I already know what it says. I am just getting the impression that many people are involving themselves in the fray without even having a clear idea of what it is they are criticizing.
Saru
April 11, 2005
7:40 pm
If anyone is interested, excerpts of the textbook are available online here

http://www.tsukurukai.com/05_rekisi_text/rekisitext_index.html
Jing
April 11, 2005
7:51 pm
You can also find english translations at ESNW's blog.

http://www.zonaeuropa.com/20050328_2.htm

Mutantfrog
April 11, 2005
8:55 pm
Saru: did you read the first edition of this textbook, or the new one that's currently being prepared? According to the passages on ESWN (which unfortunately are based on translated mainland Chinese media sources and not the original text) it seems that the new edition has even less information on the Nanjing Massacre than the first edition did.
Saru
April 11, 2005
9:09 pm
First one. I wish I could get my hands on the new one.
Simon World
April 12, 2005
2:42 am
More on anti-Japan riots in China

More reaction and reports on the anti-Japan riots in China. In an effort to catch the populist wave, various Hong Kong groups are planning anti-Japan activites including a rally for this weekend. The issue is uniting the Democrats with the DAB, The Fro...
Mill
April 12, 2005
5:10 am
Just in case anyone hadn't noticed, the translations in ENSW's blog are via Chinese, not direct from the original Japanese, making them basically useless. (Partly because the Chinese media's translators are not impartial here, but mostly because if you want to talk details of language, working off a translation of a translation is completely pointless.)
Dave
April 12, 2005
10:03 am
If the Party wanted to prevent these demonstrations, they could have acted much earlier than cracking the first skull off the bus as Saru says. While there's been a crackdown on university BBS activity, nationalist boards in China have, apparently, gotten carte blanche. These echo chambers, along with SMS messaging (according to friends here in China), are the main methods of organization for the nationalists. The Party didn't act very fast to stop similar riots the past two years, such as the Asia World Cup riot or the Xi'an University incident. The Chinese Foreign Ministry said this weekend:

"Some people in Beijing organized a demonstration themselves in protest against the wrong attitude and practice Japan had taken recently on the issue of its history of aggression,"Â? Foreign Ministry spokesman Qin Gang was quoted as saying.

For the party, that's basically a ringing endorsement. Then they said:

"It's not China that bears the blame for letting Sino-Japanese relations come to this pass," said Qin Gang, the spokesman.
Jerry
April 12, 2005
10:25 am
Let's see -- I had seven relatives killed by the Japanese during World War II and know countless others who's families were affected in the same way. And now Chinese people are considered aggresors? Let me ask you this: If it were your families who had been murdered this way, your sisters, wives and mothers raped, and your hometown razed - would you be so quick to dismiss the whole thing as mere government managed propaganda?

While Chirac and Schroeder are holding hands in Europe promising "never again", we've got the official leadership of Japan paying homage to some of the most barbaric troops in history and whitewashing its textbooks.

Yeah, China's leadership can be pretty misguided and opportunistic (like any self-serving govt.) - but that's a red herring argument and you miss the point completely. I don't agree with going around smashing up Japanese businesses either, but Japan (and its apologists) needs to take a deep long look at itself in the mirror and understand the role that their atrocious past has played in shaping what it has become today before China, Korea or any of the other of the countries they brutalized in World War 2 can come to fully trust their intentions.
Ming
April 12, 2005
11:12 am
I'm the Ming you quoted. I did say your last post was not worth reading. But I also wrote the reasons why I said that.

Thanks.
Dave
April 12, 2005
11:47 am
Jerry, the point that I see most people on this blog and others reiterate is that reactions such as Ming's (don't read it), or the protesters (destroy Japan!) or many others who express hatred of Japan in China are, ultimately, futile and self-destructive. If your goal is to get Japan to do more to acknowledge their past, calling them pure evil and attacking supermarkets is going to have to opposite effect - Japanese people will be less inclined to listen to you or change anything. And the rest of the world isn't going to have more sympathy for the Chinese either.

On another site, pekingduck.org, one Chinese guy asked how Jews would feel if the German government endorsed textbooks glossing over the Holocaust, thinking he'd garner sympathy. In the case of Germany and European anti-semiticism in general, Jewish groups aren't known for attacking German soccer teams, throwing rocks at stores or embassies, or boiling over with hatred and spitting out an intense desire to invade Berlin personally with a knife in their teeth. They made inroads by gaining the sympathy of the world (Schindler's List style), peaceful media campaigns, and using that to lobby for policy changes through meaningful dialogue with the Germans (et al). Why not, instead of organizing to throw water bottles, organize to make a movie? I point out, also, that with something like Schindler's List, there are appeals to other people I never see Chinese nationalists make, namely a) the Holocaust is representative of something universal, not only about Germans and Jews, that all human beings are capable of and b) a German can be a good person. Maybe if the protests expressed those ideas more clearly and loudly, those of us looking in from outside wouldn't think the protesters are ignorant and bigoted.
Ming
April 12, 2005
11:57 am
And I also want to prove that most of the people in China hate Japan. Why? Because their grandfather or grandmother were killed by Japanese army. They dont have to argue with you. They dont have to show anybody the death numbers. They dont have to know what the historians think about Japan. They have the right to say:" I just hate it."

It's the old Japan that made the fault. But the modern Japan - or the modern japanese government do not face up the history frankly. ALthough I like their music, their electronic products, I dont like their government.

anon
April 12, 2005
1:16 pm
Curzon,

I'm currently residing in Beijing. Something I've tried to understand better during my stay here is what the ordinary Chinese think of the Japan. Occassionally, I ask my Chinese friends what they think. Sometimes, I hear unprompted, usually very critical, remarks on Japan.

The conclusion I've come to is that resentment, dislike, and even hatred of Japan is widespread - from students, office workers, to taxi drivers, and even academics at prominent Chinese universities.

How does one explain this? You argue that "China's anti-Japanese nationalism is a modern invention" and write that "then came Tiananmen Square. Threatened with internal collapse, the government realized that it had to manufacture a stronger sense of national pride to survive ... The convenient bugaboo was Japan, and the state began a new campaign in the media and education, taking aim at Japan's invasion fifty years earlier. The students raised on the anti-Japan bile are now pissed off youngsters, and only now has China's government realized that it's created a monster it cannot control."

This isn't a new argument; I've heard a Tokyo University professor advance essentially the same thesis. While there may be some truth to this, I think this argument lacks explanatory power.It doesn't explain the widespread resentment of Japan - across different age groups - I've observed here. Logically, if anti-Japan education started only after '89, you would expect that only the younger Chinese would have been indoctrinated. Furthermore, many Chinese I know are intelligent, critical thinkers - critical of their government in other aspects - but nonetheless critical of Japan. In summary, the indoctrination argument doesn't hold up too well.

I once met a young South Korean during a trip in China. He disliked Japan. He told me that his grandfather had worked in Japan out of economic necessity; his grandfather went to Japan disliking the Japanese, and returned from Japan disliking the Japanese. My impression that resentment of Japan in South Korea is just as widespread and broad-based as in China. If nationalism and indoctrination explain Chinese resentment towards Japan, how would you explain resentment by the South Koreans towards Japan?

Finally, some comments on your previous post, "Apples and Oranges" where you write that "please compare Japan's imperial rule in Korea and Taiwan*, where they set up schools, built roads, a police force, and established civil society, to other instances of colonial rule."

Japanese colonisation of Taiwan was by a civil government, unlike their subsequent military actions in mainland China. Japan's objective in Taiwan was to run a model colony, and it's generally agreed that they did a relatively good job - I wasn't aware of this until I heard these points made, grudgingly, by several Chinese academics. On Korea, I'm not familiar with the details, but clearly the South Koreans are not happy with the Japanese. My point is that the contrasting attitudes of the Taiwanese and Koreans towards the Japanese suggest that colonized peoples have the ability to judge and respond accordingly.

Finally, to be clear, this post is not written in support of Japan-bashing.
Tian Li
April 12, 2005
3:08 pm
I only have one simple observation
to make - dictatorships in glass shrines
should not throw stones.

I can only imagine the inaccuraces that
are taught in China's history text books.

Japan is much farther along in recognizing the errors of
its past compared to China - far far along.
Plum Blossoms
April 12, 2005
8:18 pm
Inflammatory?

Coming Anarchy argues that mainland China's sense of patriotism is newfound and stoked by the CCP. Simon calls Hong Kong's plan to hold anti-Japanese rallies “an effort to catch the populist wave.” Both, in essence, are suggesting that th...
Andrés Gentry
April 13, 2005
9:42 am
0.3% and the Free Society

A fair bit of ink has been spilled either reporting or commenting on the recent anti-Japan riots that have occured in various cities across China the past couple of weeks.
steve
April 17, 2005
1:44 pm
Curzon,

In early 1980s, there were almost annual widespread protest against Japan in Beijing. The anti-Japan sentiment grew stronger after the official visit of the shrine by Japan prime minister in 1985. However, after 1989 massacre, there was no anti-Japan demonstration all all. Japan actually had a good relationship with CCP because most western countries shunned CCP. Therefore your argument of dating anti-Japan sentiment from 1989 as proof of man-made is weak.

If my memory serves me correctly, Japanese prime minister visited shrine annually, but never claimed in official capacity before 1985. The visit by prime minist in 1985 was the first one. Koizumi pushed further and visited annually in official capacity since 2001. This kind of gesture is viewed as intentionally offensive by many asian even though it is viewed ok by the west. The central argument is that Japan is not Nazi. However, not every Nazi participated in Holocaust and some of them were actually against it. Many of them was just fighting for their country. By the same logic, those Nazi can be remembered by Germans for their sacrifice.

Your another argument is that, since CCP is fabricating history, what is wrong with Japan? Well, you are using the same argument as CCP's, when CCP counters US human rights accusation by citing US problems. Do you really want to argue like them?


puyopuyo
April 21, 2005
12:35 pm
The disputed shrine commemorates not only Japanese headquarters at WWII but every dead military in all the war against foreign countries. It is a little bit funny no one points out President Bush visiting Arlington. Visiting cemetries as a President, isn't it the equivalent action? Or Bush would stop visiting there if somebody claims that this is offensive to Japanese people because of Trueman who bombarded Hiroshima?

Anon,
Looks like you have been carefully considering people's sentiment prevailed in China. I think that only shedding light on history textbooks in China doesn't explain the whole aspects of the sentiment. If you turn on TV in China, you'll see a lot of soap operas where Japanese soldiers torturing people as villains. CCP agitates people with every medium! This would explain ONE of the reasons why they hate Japan.
Plunge
April 21, 2005
12:45 pm
The disputed shrine commemorates not only Japanese headquarters at WWII but every dead military in all the war against foreign countries. It is a little bit funny no one points out President Bush visiting Arlington. Visiting cemetries as a President, isn't it the equivalent action? Or Bush would stop visiting there if somebody claims that this is offensive to Japanese people because of Trueman who bombarded Hiroshima?

Truman wasn't a Class A war criminal. There is no equivalency.
Curzon
April 21, 2005
2:54 pm
Reports of the death of this post were greatly exaggerated...

Plunge -- so you're basically affirming my point made here that guilt is defined by defeat. Truman's orders did kill hundreds of thousands of civilians, but because the US won he's a hero. The Japanese lost and their leaders went to war crimes court. And because of the legal ruling that a few are Class A war criminals, any remebrance of them is unacceptable. Perhaps we should dig up their tombs and toss their bones to the dogs.
Two Cents
April 21, 2005
5:24 pm
Puyopuyo,
Yasukuni commemorates all war dead since the Meiji Restoration, not only those who died in wars against foreign countries. It also commemorates non-soldiers who died in battle, such as nurses, children evacuating Okinawa who died on the ship Tsuhimamaru headed for Kagoshima when it was sunk, and the female switchboard operators who bravely continued to inform the mainland of the landing of Soviet forces on Sakhalin until their death.
Plunge
April 21, 2005
7:15 pm
so you're basically affirming my point made here that guilt is defined by defeat. Truman's orders did kill hundreds of thousands of civilians, but because the US won he's a hero. The Japanese lost and their leaders went to war crimes court.

Curzon: No no no. Now we need to get into whether or not Truman was justified in dropping the bombs and was dropping the bombs a war crime. But, if that is the topic you wish to get into, give me a couple days, I just finished a rather long posting on something else.

And because of the legal ruling that a few are Class A war criminals, any remembrance of them is unacceptable.

Remember is good. Revering is not.

Perhaps we should dig up their tombs and toss their bones to the dogs.

Their bones aren't at the Yasukuni Shrine as you well know.
Curzon
April 21, 2005
8:14 pm
Remember is good. Revering is not.
Then it must be a viewpoint issue; I see zero evidence of revering anyone bad. A few politicians pay an annual visit to the shrine where all war dead are buried. Dare I say it, but China + Korea, get over it already!!

Perhaps we should dig up their tombs and toss their bones to the dogs.
Their bones aren't at the Yasukuni Shrine as you well know.

Sorry, that was a historical reference. Supposedely -- although there's no per se proof -- when the Turks took Constantinople they allegedly dug up the grave of Doge Enrico Dandolo of Venice (who led the Fourth Crusade in its attack on Constantinople) and threw his bones to the dogs -- the ultimate show of disrespect for the dead.
Plunge
April 22, 2005
3:00 pm
Then it must be a viewpoint issue; I see zero evidence of revering anyone bad. A few politicians pay an annual visit to the shrine where all war dead are buried. Dare I say it, but China + Korea, get over it already!!

You don't think revering war criminals is bad? I see something very wrong with this and so do many of the Japanese as well. Remember, since enshrining these criminals, the Emperor of Japan has refused to visit the shrine along with most of the Prime Ministers. Only Koizumi has seen fit to go every year.

It has become a symbol of what was bad with Japan. It has become a symbol of Japan's imperialistic past. So every year, these memories are brought back and it wipes away much of the good that Japan has done, along with stoking the fear of a imperialistic resurgence.
Mutantfrog
April 22, 2005
3:09 pm
It seems to me that the biggest reason Yasukuni cannot just be treated as the Arlington of Japan, as many people like to refer to it, is because of the historical relationship that the shrine has with the cult of the deified Emperor. The history of Yasukuni is connected intimately with Japan's former Imperialism, and Arlington was constructed by the victors of the US civil war. Incidentally, Arlington has its own controversial history- it was built on land illegally seized from the family of Robert E Lee.

On the other hand though, some people have proposed removing the 13 or 14 executed class A war criminals from veneration at Yasukuni. How can you possibly do that? A government order to that effect would be an agregious violation of the church and state barrier in Japan. Admittedly the line can be rather porous at times since many of the largest shrines were originally created as Imperial institutions and continues to be supported by government funds as cultural artifacts, but to actually tell the priests flat out whow they are allowed to worship would be going too far.
Plunge
April 22, 2005
4:45 pm
A government order to that effect would be an agregious violation of the church and state barrier in Japan. Admittedly the line can be rather porous at times since many of the largest shrines were originally created as Imperial institutions and continues to be supported by government funds as cultural artifacts, but to actually tell the priests flat out whow they are allowed to worship would be going too far.

Correct me if I'm wrong (shouldn't even say that since I know it will happen), but I was under the assumption that Yasukuni is completely privately funded.

I don't agree with forcing anything to happen there via government decree. I just feel the place should be avoided by anyone who feels that reverencing these war criminals is wrong.
Mutantfrog
April 22, 2005
9:28 pm
Plunge, to be honest I have no idea. I know that the Japanese government does spend money on preserving a lot of historical sites that also happen to be religious institutions, but I'm not sure whether or not Yasukuni is on the list.
puyopuyo
April 24, 2005
2:59 am
Plunge, I have met thousands of American people and have seen a lot of TV programs in America. And no one proudly reports bombing Hiroshima and Nagasaki while making many films of WWII against Nazi. I know many American keep justifying its deed, saying "The atomic bombs made the war end and saved more people." But we haven't seen America use Nukes in Vietnam or Iraq with the same logic. It's because America knew that the logic is collapsed, so they won't use it again. It's fun to see the country desperately justifying itself and never do it again. America is barely a human's country. Thus there won't be necessary to throw Trueman's bones to dogs.
Curzon
April 24, 2005
3:13 am
"Thanks for the kind words, Puyopuyo" Curzon said, while calmly waving his middle finger at the computer screen.

The first atomic bomb probably did shorten the war. The second was excessive. Either way, Mr./Ms. Puyopuyo is one of many reading this who miss the point.

I'm an old fashioned Hobbesian realist. I believe that humans have have always been doing deplorable things across the globe since history began, and although civil society can emerge and create communities, the fundamental truth will never change. Every country has its war criminals. America has done awful things, Japan has done awful things, as has every other country in the history of the world.

So all: get over it already!
Plunge
April 24, 2005
5:17 am
Actually, I'm in the middle of writing a piece on the dropping of the atomic bomb so I will defer answering until later.
steve
April 24, 2005
2:14 pm
Curzon,

Puyopuyo made a series of claim to equate the shrine with Arlinton national semetry, Hiroshima with Nanjing massacre and Truman with class A criminals.

I have not read any objections from you. If you agree with those statement, I actually fully appreciate your position and think your position is quite consistent. This position, in my humble opinion, is also held dearly by right-wings in Japan.

I am just wondering how many people in US will actually agree with you.
Randal
May 30, 2005
11:27 pm
Steve,
I can't speak for "most Americans", but I suspect that many of them would not dignify Puyopuyo's "reasoning" with a response. I will however.
If America nuked every country they had a quarrel with (to justify their "logic," right?) then undoubtedly others would do the same - with the ultimate conclusion. So what would America have gained by destroying the planet - a "win" against Vietnam? (or Iraq, etc.)
Japan had the misfortune to the be first (and hopefully the last) recipient of a nuclear bomb. How she found herself in that unique position is history, but I also wonder what Tojo would have done with "the bomb." (shudder)
ComingAnarchy.com » Blog Archive » On War Crimes; or, What makes it immoral if you lose but not if you win?
October 31, 2005
4:18 pm
[...] McNamara never comes to grip with the answer: nothing—war is war. Victors judge right and wrong, decide who is a war criminal, and write the history books (mentioned here and here; or see Marmot on the subject here and here). As horrible as the firebombing was, as horrible as Japan’s war in East Asia was, when it comes to war, the victors must fight total war until surrender. Ceasefires and conditional surrenders frequently perpetuate conflict. That is the result of war between great powers. [...]
Kiming
November 7, 2005
2:46 am
I tried to read all these postings and couldn't finish them. It just made me sick. Especially the one by Tien Li.

I am a 56 year old Taiwanese. My ancestors were from Mainland maybe 300-400 years ago. I am so sick of Japanese occupation of Taiwan for 50 years. Personally, I hope someday the same will happen to Japan. I mean "occupied by other country for 50 or more years". And, it might happen, giving the Japanese attitude today - arrogant, lying, ................................