Entry details

Curzon
Author

Curzon

Date

April 10th, 2005

Tags

, ,

Comments

47 Comments so far.
Add yours.

Apples and Oranges

Japan should own up to its past and apologize, says the Jakarta Post:

Japan’s stalled maturity
Opinion and Editorial – April 08, 2005

Amid the controversy over the Japanese government’s decision on Tuesday to approve the revised New History Textbook, it is worthwhile to read the speech of German Chancellor Gerard Schroeder during a ceremony to mark the 60th anniversary of the liberation of Auschwitz in January: “The past cannot be overcome. It is the past. But its traces and, above all, the lessons to be learned from it extend to the present. We have a special responsibility to engrave Germany’s past in our hearts.” The speech clearly demonstrated the Germany’s maturity in accepting responsibility for that country’s World War II wrongs and to learn from it.

But why do we get the strong impression that the two countries are very different in dealing with their past? The tempting question may arise: Is it natural to expect Prime Minister Junichiro Koizumi to express a similar message as the German leader—of course, in his own way—when the world commemorates the end of the World War II in August this year?

Similar sentiments are expressed here, here, here, and here. The logic? Germany has said sorry; Japan should too.

Can anyone spot the difference between Auschwitz and colonial rule in Korea and Taiwan? This isn’t rocket science. One was a genocidal concentration camp. The other was imperialism—practiced in similar forms by Britain, France, Japan, Germany, Holland, Belgium, Italy, Spain, Russia, and others during the 19th and 20th centuries. “But Japan’s imperialism was… worse!” so the argument goes. Bollocks. Please compare Japan’s imperial rule in Korea and Taiwan*, where they set up schools, built roads, a police force, and established civil society, to other instances of colonial rule:

  • King Leopold of Belgium’s reign of terror in the Congo; 10 million killed; dismemberment as punishment; concentration camps; forced starvation…
  • The European Slave Trade in Africa; tens of millions enslaved and permanently displaced…
  • The Soviet Union’s collectivization of Ukraine (4 million dead); the Kazakhstan Famine (1.5 million dead, approximately one in three of the entire Kazakh population);
  • The Bengal Famine; four million people died of hunger in the world’s worst recorded food disaster in 1943; other British famines in India in the 19th century killed a total of several tens of millions… (See also: similar famines in Ireland…)
  • The systematics massacres, displacements, and germ warfare against the native inhabitants of the Americas that killed millions…

None of the above perpetrators have apologized. Would it be superfluous to add that Japan’s comparatively decent imperial rule indirectly led to the current functionality of modern South Korea and Taiwan? Especially compared to disfunctional Southeast Asia, Africa, South Asia, and Latin America. The only factor working against Japan is that they were nominal allies with the Nazis, and they lost. But genocide? Apples and oranges.

Did Japan do terrible things? They admit as much. I’ve been to the Nanjing Massacre Memorial (sorry, I should get the title correct… “Memorial for the Victims of the Nanjing Massacre Killed by Japanese Invaders.”) Pictures of Japanese Prime Ministers and politicians visiting the memorial are everywhere, laying wreaths and doing their best to heal the divide between China and Japan. And yes, Japan has apologized. As President Roh of South Korea recently stated:

“The fundamental problem is that the Japanese are looking to distort and justify their past aggressions. They have occasionally apologized, but their latest behaviors invalidated those apologies.”

The wording tells a lot. They’ve only apologized “occasionally!” Where are the monthly broadcasts declaring their war guilt? The tribute payments to the descendents of the descendents of the victims? Unacceptable! This gets to my main point, ladies and gentlemen: the actual apology is irrelevant. Koizumi could apologize again. And again. But saying sorry isn’t the issue. Korea is afflicted by an anti-Japanese psychosis, and China suffers from the brainwashing education of an authoritarian government struggling to maintain legitimacy. Marmot said it best:

…the fact that President Roh would make such a statement while pursuing a policy of “coexistence and coprosperity”Â? with North Korea and buddying up with China makes it hard for me to take the “Japan problem” seriously. “A misfortune to coexist with Japan?” “Japan doesn’t accord with universal values?” This after his defense minister says China has the greatest interest in peace and stability in the region?

Finally, to return to the Jakarta Post:

In the meantime, there is a growing opinion among many Japanese people that “enough is enough.” Many Japanese feel that they have done more than enough to show their regret and pay their war debt. They feel that they continue to be cornered and now it is time for them to stand up.

Too true. I’m glad to say that Japan is finally fed up with the collective nonsense of China and Korea, with Koizumi’s Yasukuni visits being just the first volley in what will be a long diplomatic war. Taiwanese politicians are visiting Yasukuni to show solidarity with Japan, and a new realignment is emerging: China and Korea versus Taiwan, Japan, and the United States.

What does a pro-Taiwan, Japanophile American such as myself think of that? I relish the future.

*= I don’t include Japan’s invasion of Mainland China or Manchuria because imperial (as opposed to military) rule was never established.

UPDATE: Another rationale on why apologies ain’t the answer:

The reason that apologies are not accepted is that the sense of being humiliated/aggreived is fundamental to the nationalist identity in China (and Japan).

In the former, at least, I agree.

Comments to this entry

Jarrod
April 10, 2005
10:08 pm
While I agree that your differentiation is important, I have to pose the question: Is targeted killing worse than random killing? It's the classic Stalin vs Hitler question. Though Stalin killed more people, it wasn't a targeted racist policy as Hitler's was. Which was worse, if it's even possible to say one is.

Your main point is there was a difference in method. I completely agree. However, how important is that? And I pose this question not as critique per se, but rather in the spirit of true debate for this has long interested me.

Does the reason make such killing better or worse? We aren't discussing self-defense vs. murder, we are only discussing this in terms of aggression. This is perhaps comparable to US law against hate crimes. If you murder someone then you murder someone. If you did it because you're racist or for whatever reason (choose any reason, the individual slept w/ your spouse,in a robbery etc) the act was the same and the punishment was the same, lest you punish someone more for their opinion which is protected by the law.

To sum up, there was a difference but how important is it? Should Japan apologize like Germany? Yes, but do the current generations have anything to do with the past: No! This is an issue that should be put to rest. Both Japan and Germany have apologized, however, their opponents continue to use such sleazy tactics to gain ground. The Germans and Japanese shouldn't allow this and call their attackers on the underlying issues, not the superficial apology story. Repeating their apology hasn't worked, time to try a different method: standing up to this nonsense.




Dusty
April 10, 2005
10:26 pm
Don't you think it is a little inaccurate to list germ warfare as one of the consciously planned methods of fighting against the native inhabitants of the Americas.

While acts of biological warfare, but not the biological warfare as we know it, has been around since almost the inception of warfare, the diseases spread throughout the Americas as a result of European appearance on the continents was hardly an act of germ warfare.

And how much different would the results have been, vis-a-vis the spread of infectious disease in the Americas, if contact between the Europe and the Americas had been contained to one of purely cultural ties and economic trade?

You have presented a reasonable argument to debate regarding the difference in treatment of various colonial and imperial histories. I don't think you ought to cloud up conscious acts in those histories with exaggeration; it only weakens your argument.
Joe
April 11, 2005
12:38 am
A-fucking-men. China and Korea will not be satisfied until, maybe, Japan is kowtowing ninety degrees everywhere they go. And that's not happening, so Japan might as well assert itself.
Curzon
April 11, 2005
1:38 am
Jarrod: I don't disagree, except where you say Japan should apologize. Should not the Belgians, the Brits, the Russians, etc etc? What makes Japan difference? The lopsided apology policy intices many Japanese of a moderate or conservative bent to decry such targeted demands for apologies as anti-Japanese racism.

Dusty: Biological warfare is indeed as old as warfare itself. Note the Black Plague's entrance into Europe, when Mongols catapulted the corpses of plague victims into the Genoan fortification at Kaffa in Crimea; plague-ridden survivors returning to Italy carried the disease with them when they landed at Constantinople and Sicily. As for the Americas, from the French and Indian War until the late 19th century, various US and European forces did, among other nasty things, give the natives blankets with fleas carrying various nasty diseases. That, combined with displacement and slaughter, is why there are so few Native Americans in North America today. Is that incorrect? If so, please tell me the how and why.

Joe: Hallelujah!
"Fake" Plunge
April 11, 2005
2:34 am
Bingo. I have to agree 100%. I do respect roh more then any world leader ever, but he did say that japan appologized.
Mutant Frog Travelogue » Blog Archive » What Yasukuni says about the Nanjing Massacre, what most Japanese probably know
April 11, 2005
3:06 am
[...] drifting towards the right? PS: Curzon over at Coming Anarchy just posted a piece about why he thinks Japan no longer needs to apologize for the crimes of their Imp [...]
Dusty
April 11, 2005
7:10 am
Curzon: I won't argue that there weren't instances because I have not spent a lot of time looking into this aspect (germ warfare) of, broadly, American history. But again, I did not take issue with displacement and slaughter. Also, I did not take issue with disease being a significant cause, maybe the most significant cause, of the decline in Native Indian populations. Please note, I take issue with your inclusion of "germ warfare", which, one, by its generally accepted understanding is a conscious, planned, and directed strategy, tactic and policy, and, two, was used significantly and as a widespread practice.

Now with regard to your blanket example, I am not so sure this has the strength of proof you intend and it seems rather superficial. Consider to what extent you believe colonial history was flea free. An example like that gives the impression, the colonials had the luxury of living in a flea free environment and, thus, had not only the interest but the desire to give only flea ridden blankets to the Indians while keeping the flea free blankets for themselves. It also gives the impression that colonials knew which fleas were infected and which weren't and even that requires that colonists 'knew' (in the sense that it was something that they believed in some fashion since it wasn't something strongly understood and not discovered until the 1890's) that fleas were a part of the vector stream. However, there was an understanding that dead rats were a sign of the plague, and, I suppose (I do not know) people might have thought it was the cause, so if you had examples of giving rat infested blankets to Indians, I would be more impressed with the argument that colonialists and their progeny of having a conscious plan. So, also would I be acquiescent to your claim if there were many recorded incidents of catapulting diseased bodies into Indian camps (sorry, I couldn't help writing that one) or colonials sending their sick off as suicide coughers to Indian reservations (sorry, again, couldn't help it.) There is an interesting anecdote I found here regarding Tom Quick and smallpox but it is a 'story' and the story notes it as inadvertent. (It's towards the end so do a word search with 'smallpox'but be sure to read the bracketed sentence just above.)

http://www.jrbooksonline.com/HTML-docs/tom_quick_complete.htm

Back to the blankets. I would suggest you consider an alternative hypothesis for handing out flea ridden blankets -- that the colonials never gave much thought to the fact that blankets had fleas, because it was a fact of life just like lice, mosquitos, beetles, roaches, etc. and everyone knew the precautions to be taken, if necessary, without government requiring warning labels be stitched, stapled, bolted or glued to every commodity. All these bugs were a 'plague' on both populations with the Indians, sadly, being less immune due to their isolation from the diseases of the other connected continents. It was guaranteed to be a doom for the peoples of the Americas unless medical science were to outpace exploration, which it didn't.

To my mind you need more convincing evidence that Europeans practiced germ warfare in the Americas. Btw, I'm sorry if you feel I am dragging you off the subject of your post, where I do have some sympathy for your argument.
Curzon
April 11, 2005
7:40 am
I have no evidence. I'm no professional historian and I haven't done field research. But it is well established by many historians that European and US settlers, both independently and with government and military backing, did intentionally use germ-carrying flea-infested blankets to quietly eliminate Amerindian populations. It started in the French and Indian War and lasted until the late 19th century. For evidence, take a look here, here, here, here, here, or even here. Alternatively, put germ warfare native Americans into Yahoo and take your pick of 42,000 hits.

As for defining "knew," how's this as one of many examples: "...we gave them two Blankets and an Handkerchief out of the Small Pox Hospital. I hope it will have the desired effect."

I'm open to an alternative hypothesis, but this is not an historical fantasy constructed in my head -- this is widely accepted. I'm somewhat bewildered that you write such a long comment when you start it it by saying you haven't spent much time looking into the issue.

Even if you still disagree with the historian establishment -- which is fine too -- that doesn't change the fact that there are hardly any Native Americans left (the original population of 6-10 million in the 17th century dropped to an all-time low of 250,000 in 1900). And to bring it back to my original topic, we have yet to say "sorry" for wiping them out and stealing their land (although we do allow the reservations on which they are confined to operate casinos...) This is one of many reasons why I believe Japan is unjustly targeted by demands of perpetual repentence and reparations.
Jarrod
April 11, 2005
9:56 am
Curzon: While living in Germany, I more than most people am tired of the guilt game. When I saw Japan should apologize, I'm saying their past ones were enough, not that they should do it agian and YES I think other European countries should too. It's part of growing up so to say. They should acknowledge what they did and take responsibility for it at least somewhat. A lot of the mess we're cleaning up today was made by European powers. Any apology should of course emphasize the past nature of these things and that while nobody today has anything to do with such actions, the country itself was involved and is sorry for the damage caused.
Adamu
April 11, 2005
1:57 pm
This is a little bit of a change in subject, but whatever:

China and Korea simply don't want to see a prosperous Japan. But the fact is Japan is prosperous, a liberal democracy, and has a great potential to good in the world. It's one of the few Asian countries that developed independently and therefore has a unique perspective on development and human rights. But instead of being allowed to make their presence felt, Japan is constantly berated by China and Korea. What the two countries need to do is shut the hell up and let Japan do its thing for once. They won't be disappointed.

Constantly re-examining Japan's war atrocities plays right into the strategy of the accusers: every SDF operation is a return to militarism, a decision against the comfort women = complete denial of their existence. China and Korea are locked in a counterproductive, competitive mindset that in the end holds everyone back. It might score points at home, but immature protests like the ones going on in China help no one in the long run.

If we could simply ignore this intellectually void noise once in a while we could see that Japan is not trying to take over the world but actually is trying to rebuild it. One fortunate consequence of the war: Japan continued its policy of developing Asian countries' economies but it was unable to use its military to do so.

Of course, you can't fault China and Korea for trying to use a very powerful tool to influence a powerful neighbor. But they're using it in completely the wrong way. Why hold Japan back when its postwar foreign policy record is almost spotless? Sure there have been cases of wasted aid or aid given to places like Indonesia when they were murdering the East Timorese, but there have been excellent results in places like Malaysia and -- dare I say it -- Korea.

Of course, Korea and China are certainly not against Japan writing checks. But what they seem to be against is any kind of conditionality. The potential for bureaucrats' statements to backfire creates an environment that makes frank discussion of foreign policy next to impossible in Japan, which has led to some of the above-mentioned problems with its aid policy. Not only does Japan rely heavily on the US for moral and policy support, the country leaves important areas of policy unclear.

Given the seeming constant wall of protest over every little thing Japan does, I wonder what Korea and China would have Japan do instead. Spend all its money on Colossus of Rhodes-sized statues of Japanese bureaucrats bowing on their knees? (a big m(__)m )
Mutantfrog
April 11, 2005
2:36 pm
Dusty: I don't know how widespread the practice was in the North American colonial period, but I remember being taught even in primary school that at the very least in one famous incident in I think Massechusets (I apologize for not remembering details) the colonists gave blankets to a native tribe with the intention of infecting them with smallpox.
Dusty
April 11, 2005
2:53 pm
Again, I apologise for my comments taking your post off topic. Like I said, I sympathize with your original argument regarding Japan.
Younghusband
April 11, 2005
2:58 pm
bq. What the two countries need to do is shut the hell up and let Japan do its thing for once.

Amen to Adamu!
Saru
April 11, 2005
3:36 pm
Anyone want to take a stab at interpreting this story from the Manila Times?

"China's state-controlled media on Sunday suppressed news of the anti-Japan protests, with no reports on TV, newspapers or news websites of the largest demonstration in the capital since 1999."

"Full story":http://www.manilatimes.net/national/2005/apr/11/yehey/world/20050411wor5.html

Just to throw a contrarian grenade into this discussion, I pose the following question: If the Chinese government is so intent on stirring up anti-Japanese sentiment and using it as a lever against Japan, why have they suppressed news coverage of this?

honest
April 11, 2005
4:01 pm
1. Japan built schools and railways in China, Taiwan and Sinapore, but it doesnt mean they can kill so many people. They still need to recognize their mistake to those countries, and to their kids.

2. It's not Japanese railways that helped Taiwan and Sinapore grow a blooming economy. Japan built lots of factories,railways and schools in northeast mainland China too. but China has not grown fast until recently because it is not as open as taiwan and SG.

3. I want to explain "Taiwanese politicians are visiting Yasukuni" thing. it's not " to show solidarity with Japan" as the article said. The taiwanese politicians are Taiwan Alliance Party( i dont know if it is correctly translated) which is an out of office party with no power on Taiwan. Why did TAP go to Yasukuni? That's because KMT (also known as the nationalist party, also an out of office party but controlled Taiwan for a long time until around 2000) went to mainland China and visiting the martyr of CPP. So here is the logic of TAP : China and Taiwan are two countries. Because KMT went to visit the martyr of another country, i should visit someone else too. TAP went to japan meant nothing, just like KMT visited mainland China meant little. Neither of them can do anything to Taiwan.

What we want is the Japanese government face up the history and tell their kids the truth.
Adamu
April 11, 2005
4:35 pm
That is probably because they are starting to realize the PR disaster that these protests have become. The Japan Olympic Committee has already expressed concerns over whether Japanese athletes would be safe going to Beijing in 2008.

Also, these protests began as a small, registered student demonstration. They have since grown into a large scale rally march with thousands participating. Broadcasting this on the news might just get the whole country in on the action, and they don't want that on their hands. I believe I read a sentence on the BBC that they might be afraid that the mob would turn against the CCP. I doubt it, but it's a possibility.

Anti-Japanese sentiment only works when it's internal and not actually directed anywhere real. The Chinese government seems to want it both ways but maybe now it can see how impossible that is.
ComingAnarchy.com » Blog Archive » We’ve Created A Monster…
April 11, 2005
6:26 pm
[...] A Monster… Adamu and Saru mentioned China in the comments section of my previous post: “If the Chinese government is so intent on [...]
Curzon
April 11, 2005
6:26 pm
Dusty: no apology necessary.
Sir Francis: Amen to your amen!
Honest/Ming: In regard to your second point, economic liberalization is indeed part of it, but Japan never established civil control of Manchuria or any part of Mainland China. Thus it's like what Kaplan said about India and Pakistan: Great Britain never established a civilian government in the northwestern part of India that later became Pakistan, and that is what contributes to its lawlessness today. Ditto on Japan's legacy in China, where they ruled for less than 20 years and never genuinely controlled the countryside, compared to half a century of civilian control of Taiwan and Korea.
Jarrod: I don't disagree with anything you say.
Saru and Adamu: to be continued in next post...
Chief Wiggum
April 11, 2005
7:03 pm
It is correct to say that Japan has apologized for its conduct in Asia during W.W. II, but what does the apology mean when Japanese textbooks gloss over, or minimize the bad conduct of Japanese troops in such places as China? President Roh is correct: "They have occasionally apologized, but their latest behaviors invalidated those apologies."Â? Would it be right if American textbooks taught children that slavery wasn't so bad bacause slave-masters cared about the slaves' welfare, providing food, shelter and employment?

Most people don't know that China lost somewhere between 25 and 30 million people during the Japanese invasion and occupation. Their treatment of the Chinese was horrific. This is well documented. The conduct of the Japanese in many ways as bad as the conduct of the German army in Eastern Europe. There is still a lot of animosity toward the Japanese in the countries they invaded in WWII.

President Clinton apologized for America's role in slavery on one of his trips to Africa. Recently, America apologized for the looting of the "Gold Train" during WWII, and paid about 25 million in compensation. The American government apologized to the Japanese Americans for their internment during WWII, and paid compensation.

I am not saying all the above-referenced apologies were necessary, or even appropriate, but at least they were some attempt to do the right thing. I don't want to talk about the Japanese internment. They were undoubtedly spies and Japanese agents among those who were incarcerated, but there were also a lot of childen. I know that other foreign nationals, German and Italians mostly, who were interred during WWII were not apologized to nor compensated.

Apologies are not the be all/end all. Recent polls in Germany show that about 60% of Germans believe they were unfairly criticized for human rights violations, and that they suffered too, at the hands of the British, French, American and Soviet soldiers in Germany.

Victorious nations seldom, if ever, try their nationals for war crimes. There are well-documented instances of what a reasonable person would say were war crimes of the Allies in WWII which were largely ignored by the victors. General Curtis LeMay said that had the US lost WWII, he would have been tried as a war criminal by the Japanese. The fact that "they did it first" or "what they did to us is worse than what we did to them" or "we made them pay for what they did" only results in a plunge into the heart of darkness.

Why shouldn't decent people apologize for some of the horrible things they have done? Why shouldn't they teach their children what really happened? Can we keep it from happening again if we don't?

Jing
April 11, 2005
7:30 pm
"China and Korea versus Taiwan, Japan, and the United States.

What does a pro-Taiwan, Japanophile American such as myself think of that? I relish the future."

I think that sums up in a few brief words your defense of Japan.
Billyboy
April 11, 2005
9:47 pm
Jing, summing up what? Perhaps after China apoligizes to the Tibetans, Koreans, Mongolians, Manchus, Burmese, and Vietnamese it slaughetered in its recent past it will have the moral authority to actually say something. Until then, it's a pot calling a teacup black.
Pabsthooligan
April 12, 2005
1:10 am
The argument that Japan's colonialism allowed Korea to develop economically always pisses me off. There's simply no excuse for making it, and a person who does proves that they're not a competent authority on East Asian history. Let me explain why:

1. Japan's development of the Korean peninsula was done solely for the benefit of Japanese colonists, and for the Japanese military. Few colonists came, but the Koreans didn't get the benefit of the developments.

2. Japanese industrial development was focused in mineral-rich North Korea; when we talk about Korean economic development, obviously we mean South Korea.

3. Korea was already in the process of reforming before annexation. A quick read into the Daehan Empire period will bring out hundreds of examples of radical change in Korean society.

4. By the end of the Korean War, all those factories and roads had been blown to smithereens.

5. Japan's economy following WWII was also miniscule; the government gained economic opportunities and assistance from the United States by acting was a way-point for troops heading to Korea.

6. The 1965 agreement with Japan provided millions of dollars in loans and grants, but this amount is tiny compared to the wealth extracted from Korea during the colonial period and the profits made by Japan during the Korean War.

7. The economic benefit of Japan's loans and grants to Korea did not spur Korea's economic revival - the Vietnam War did, by having the United States pay Korean soldiers American wages, which pumped up consumer spending in Korea.

8. Althought Koreans followed the Japanese business model under the Park regime, this model proved to be unstable and unworthy in the 1997 financial crisis; a more American style business with an independent board of directors would likely have saved Korea from collapse.

9. No matter how rich you are, you aren't going to choose that wealth in exchange for your daughter being raped by thousands of soldiers for years on end.

Now please, let's never mention this argument again.
kidcharlemagne
April 12, 2005
1:43 am
I would agree with adamu that japan has a lot of potential but to say that korea and china should let japan do its thing, "they won't be disappointed." what does he base that on? i certainly hope he doesn't base that on the past - japan's far back ugly history tends to overshadow it's nice recent history.
i truely believe that the sins of the father should not be held against the son. however, for japan to now print textbooks that whitewash the past, that's in poor taste and asking for trouble. if japan were honest about it's past then it's asian neighbors would have no room to complain - of course they will still complain but at least the complaints would ring hollow.

the original post by curzon seems slightly skewered in that he says basically because other colonial powers did things that were worse than japan and didn't apologize, japan shouldn't have to either. well, different cultures are going to handle affronts differently and thus should not be compared to each other. so yes, japan is different from germany but just because the congolese didn't demand numerous apologies from the belgiums doesn't mean the chinese can't demand it from the japanese.

i say air out the dirty laundry and then get on with life.
jyc
April 12, 2005
1:55 am
It's one of the few Asian countries that developed independently and therefore has a unique perspective on development and human rights. But instead of being allowed to make their presence felt, Japan is constantly berated by China and Korea. What the two countries need to do is shut the hell up and let Japan do its thing for once. They won't be disappointed.

Just ignoring the wholesale acceptance of the "unique" ideology, this post is delusional. China and Korea may indeed want Japan not to be prosperous, but nothing they have ever done has ever succeeded in holding back Japan in any way. China and Korea are not holding Japan, as a liberal democratic and prosperous country, back, and it's paranoid and evidence of a persecution complex to even maintain that they have ever succeeded in doing so.

FWIW, I really like Japan as the model of a prosperous and advanced Asian country, and I would like to see it play more of a role as a leader and representative on behalf of Asia. Japan, however, continuously acts against its own interests in doing so. People have maintained that Korea and China should forgive and forget, but really, the Japanese aren't doing much forgetting themselves. Why visit Yasukuni Jinja to memorialize a war that Japan lost 50 years ago, and why should an apology, decades later, be any more controversial than the very overdue American compensation of the victims of the Japanese internment campaign in World War II? Why does Yasukuni Jinja even need to exist at all, anymore, and really how much of the Japanese public even cares enough to justify Koizumi's PR disastrous visits there? Why insist on provoking neighboring Asian countries, with whom valuable economic relations are being maintained with the perennial textbook controversy? Why not make some trivial adjustments in textbooks, some trivial payments, and be done with the issue for good?

Japan is an advanced country in Asia, and already plays an important role as the region's financial and economic hub. As a prosperous and mature democracy, unlike china, Japan can potentially act as a representative for democratic Asia among the advanced nations. Every time it almost gets there, however, it acts against its own interests by absolutely refusing to budge on a few, really trivial, issues.

Really, I'm often baffled by foreigners from western countries in Japan. It's always either "the Japanese are racist, and I'm persecuted," or the reverse, a need to defend even the most reactionary aspects of Japanese society.
lirelou
April 12, 2005
8:10 am
Curzon,

Give me one specific instance of U.S. forces ever passing out contaminated items to native americans. You are confusing a sorry episode from Pontiac's War (committed by a Brit) with the general conduct of the later wars against the plains tribes, which does not have a single instance of germ warfare.

By the way, if you ever lived in the Mountain West, or the Southwest, you would find native americans far more visible. Within the eastern U.S.. the largest number of native americans live in North Carolina, with Maine running second, and I have lived in both. And in the case of some groups (i.e., the Navajo), there are far larger today than in the 19th Century.

Ah, reference the Congo's 10 million exterminated. That comes from a single source, Adam Hochschild's "King Leopold's Ghost". I did some very superficial study of the Congo/Zaire in the 1970s and 80s, but read more than a single book, and I agree with Hochschild's critics that his "10 million" figure would be very hard to document.

Otherwise, I agree with much of your arguments regarding Japan. But then, Japan bashing in this part of the world often arises from issues other than Japan. The ire of the masses must have a safety valve, and Japan in convenient (if not totally undeserving).
Alfred Russel Wallace
April 12, 2005
1:08 pm
Surely the issue here is that China is flexing its muscles viz a viz Japan perhaps becoming a permanent (non-vetoing?) member of the UN Security Council... Japanese school textbooks are a convenient "red rag"......
Mutantfrog
April 12, 2005
1:08 pm
lirelou: Technically it wasn't US forces, or even 'forces' at all, since there was no US and no formal military. As far as I know this happened in Massechusets during the very early colonial period, possibly even before the colony was officialy recognized by England. I learned about this in American public school as a kid, it's common knowledge.
ComingAnarchy.com » Blog Archive » The Argument, Reloaded
April 12, 2005
5:36 pm
[...] The Economist Global Agenda. Ditto on Korea, as aknowledged by their dear president (see the previous post). The collective denial in this regard is curious: Japan h [...]
lirelou
April 12, 2005
11:41 pm
Mutantfrog, Since it was Pontiac's war, the site would have to be out in present day Ohio or Michigan. In the colonial period, the western boundaries of the various colonies were generally vague. Roger's Rangers, as an example, a New Hampshire militia unit, operated as far afield as Michigan. My point was that it was not the United States Army, nor an "American" unit. I learned a lot of things in American public schools that were "common knowledge", and some of them even later proved true.
Battlepanda
April 12, 2005
11:49 pm
Look, I don't condone violent protests and I have no doubt the communist chinese gov. (who also have blood on their hands) are despicable if they're milking those protests for political gains BUT...

If you're grandparents' generation weren't raped, mutilated then murdered, used for live bayonet practice, massacred en masse by the Japanese, don't you dare discount my grief and outrage at their suffering. The Japanese, like the Germans, had a master race mentality that enabled them to slaughter women and children like animals while taking pleasure in their cruelty. Yet the world has convieniently forgotten about all that. Why let their memories haunt the economic good times?

If you have read Iris Chang's "The Rape of Nanking" or saw Zhang Yimou's "Red Sorgum" the harrowing deaths of those Chinese will stay with you forever. It's not that I don't want to forgive the Japanese people. But it's hard to forgive with an open heart when the Japanese are trying to sweep away and sanitize their history at every turn. Official apologies are nice. But Koizumi visiting the shrine honoring those who killed and tortured as national heros speaks volumes.

(For those who argue "But the Chinese are just as bad in Tibet, Mongolia etc..." Would you defend haulocaust deniers just because "but the Israelis are just as bad to the Palestinians?". Yes, it is a distasteful fact of life that every people can be victims and oppressors. That everybody contains within him the possibility to be good and to be evil. China should allow Tibet independence and apologize for oppressing the Tibetan people. Japan should face up to it's bestial wartime behavior. Those things are not mutually exclusive.)
Jung
April 13, 2005
12:11 am
Curzon, you have some serious issues with understanding a very simple argument, which is obvious from your long useless rant that amounts to nothing more than a red herring.

You're right, apologies don't mean jackshit in Korea and China. Not when Japan's top dogs insist that they go on proudly INVALIDATING them with some of their action.

If japan can simply live with itself and no one else and doesn't influence anyone else in any way whatsoever, i wouldn't give a flying fuck as to what they do amongst themselves, wehther that's going to visit yaskuni or engaging in tentacle sex.

But no, we and they have to live with each other, which is why its a damn aweful misfortune for the rest of East Asia.
steve
April 13, 2005
12:14 am
I think all your analysis missed an important point. The rage has less to do with apology, but more to do with the endorsement (or appearance of endorsement) on those troubling textbooks by Japanese government.

Currently Japanese government claims, look, speech freedom needs to be protected. In that case, why do you need review on textbook anyway?

The same with shrine visit. Yes, the prime minister can visit. So, why did he have to annouce to visit in official capacity, unless he really want to piss off other people. Well, those people are pissed. He should be really happy now.
Battlepanda
April 13, 2005
12:46 am
Oh, and the bastard who gave the indians smallpox infected blankets was called Lord Jeffrey Amherst. I know because I went to Amherst college -- he's our mascot. How sweet.

Up to and until the 70s, the crockery in the dining room showed a little border of lord Jeff chasing indians all around the plate. Until one day, when people just started smashing them in the dining room.

Curzon
April 16, 2005
9:59 pm
2ãƒÂ?ャãƒÂ?ルãÂ?«å¯”žÃ£”šÅ Ã£Â?”žÃ£”š”°Ã£Â?£ãÂ?—㔚ƒãÂ?£ãÂ?ŸãÂ?®æ”“¹ã€Â?ãÂ?”?æÂ?¥åº—ãÂ?”šÃ£”šÅ Ã£Â?΋Â?¨ãÂ?” Ã£Â?”?ãÂ?”“ãÂ?”žÃ£Â?¾ãÂ?—ãÂ?Ÿã€”š
ComingAnarchy.comãÂ?ξ—¥æœ¬ä¸€æœ”°Ã¥Â?Â?ãÂ?ªBBSãÂ?«è¼”°Ã£Â?”ºÃ£Â?¦ãÂ?”žÃ£Â?ŸãÂ? ãÂ?”žÃ£Â?¦ã€Â?身ãÂ?«ä½™ã”š”¹Ã¥”¦”°Ã¦Â ”žÃ£Â?§ãÂ?™ã€”š
ãÂ?ŸãÂ? ãÂ?—ã€Â?Ã¥”¦Â·Ã¤Â½“çš”žÃ£Â?ªãƒªãƒ³ã”šÂ¯Ã£Â?¯è¦”¹Ã£Â?¤ãÂ?”¹Ã£”šÅ Ã£Â?¾ãÂ?”ºÃ£”š“〔šÃ£Â?“ãÂ?®ã”šÂ³Ã£Æ’¡ãƒ³ãƒˆã”šÂ»Ã£”šÂ¯Ã£”šÂ·Ã£Æ’§ãƒ³ãÂ?«è²¼ã”šÅ Ã¤Â»ËœÃ£Â?”˜Ã£Â?¦å”¦Â¥Ã¥Å ”ºÃ£Â?—ãÂ?¦ãÂ?Â?ãÂ? ãÂ?”¢Ã£Â?£ãÂ?Ÿã”š”°Ã£â‚¬Â?心ãÂ?”¹Ã£”š”°Ã¦”žÅ¸Ã¨Â¬Â?ãÂ?—ãÂ?¾ãÂ?™ã€”š
㔚ˆã”šÂ?ãÂ?—ãÂ?Â?ãÂ?Šé¡˜ãÂ?”žÃ£Â?—ãÂ?¾ãÂ?™ã€”š
 
Yours,
CURZON
K
April 17, 2005
2:46 am
I don't know this is what you want or not, but I will leave you URL to take a look at. And if you have time, could you e-mail me? I would like to discuss some issues with regard to Japanese history.

ttp://www.2ch.net/ (as you know, please add "h" to very front)

I hope this is what you asked for:)
Thanks!
Tom
April 17, 2005
5:59 am
Curzon,

Within www.2ch.net, there appears to be multiple postings of your website url.
The one I came across was:

锺»è©±çªÂ?æ'ƒéšŠå”¡ÂºÃ¥Â¼ÂµÃ¤Â¾Â?頼攰€70
http://society3.2ch.net/test/read.cgi/korea/1112957510/200

By the way, it was refreshing to see someone in US shed light on this issue.
kimpo
April 17, 2005
9:49 am
President Roh's approval rating rose from 20% to 50% while the anti-japan riot went on.
Korean gov or CCP don't really care the history issue.
They will keep bashing Japan whatever Koizumu does.

Book recommendation
Ways that are dark; the truth about China by Ralph Townsend
Mike
April 17, 2005
1:12 pm
I can see both sides here.

Japan is whitewashing. Read the Rape of NanKing. They were having head chopping contests, rapping women, plundering, and taking pictures of it because they didn't think they were doing anything wrong. Their superiors encouraged it.

The Chineese have the right to be angered about these Textbooks. How would we like it if the the Japaneese textbooks whitewashed the Pearl Harbour, or Bridge over Rive Quai (Sp?) stories.

I can also see how people are sick and tired of apologizing. Some people like to use the past
to beat you over the head . They say they accept your apology, but if they can use your past deed
as leverage they will. I believe that these whitewashed Japaneese books give China a great argument/leverage to block their seat on the UN Security Councel. To me the revisionist textbooks are stupid because Japaneese people live in a free society, and have access to the internet and other forms of research. So if the goal was brainwashing they failed.

If you think about it, every country that exists, exists by the defeat of somebody or some group that used to live there. The most stable ones were the ones that vanquished their enemies, otherwise theri enemies would regroup..

We need to learn from the past, so as to not repeat it, but you need to look at the reality of today.
In todays world, China is a huge threat to world peace. Japan is not. Japan has human rights. China does not. The Chineese have bigger problems than Japans textbooks. (They live in a totalitarian state.)




Curzon
April 17, 2005
7:32 pm
I can see both sides too until the Koreans go off the deep end. You know, cutting off fingers, immolating themselves, attacking riot police, etc etc in reponse to some hicks declaring Takeshima Day and totally missing the ball on the textbook issue. As for the Chinese, don't even get me started...

Re: Rape of Nanjing. Yes, it was a massacre. Their superiors were tried in war crimes court, some were imprisoned and some were executed. They apologize and admit that about 80,000-120,000 civilians were killed. But the book the Rape of Nanjing is an appalling anti-Japanese diatribe full of falsifications that believes every rumor, every story, throws facts to the wind to prove her point that the Japanese were animals, and were ultimately a source of Chang's own self-loathing psychosis that drove her to suicide, despite being married, with children and a respected professional in her field. "This article":http://cominganarchy.com/nanjing.pdf by David Kennedy from the Atlantic Monthly and written before Chang's death, reveals the subtle inaccurates in her book and expose her for what she is/was.
balm114
April 19, 2005
1:04 pm
Hi, Curzon,

I came from a thread called
è¨êÚëçóùԡԢâ^ԡ┞¢Ã£â”°Â Ãƒ”¡Ã¢Ë†”˜Ãƒ”¡Ã‚¨Ã”¡ÃƒË†Ãƒ”¦@Ԧ£108Ԧ£
http://society3.2ch.net/test/read.cgi/giin/1113662718/l50
But, seems like the thread #108 is almost over.

Since this is a long-run thread, there is a summary site for it.
http://yasz.hp.infoseek.co.jp/

I feel that I've finally found a strong supporter outside of Japan!
We have avid discussions about our history and politics within our country, but I felt that those discussions hardly reach outside, which is mainly because of lack of our appeal.
But I found you wrote exactly what I (and probably the people on the thread) wanted to say.

I will visit here from now on.
puyopuyo
April 20, 2005
4:13 am
I am a typical Japanese, and I'd like to defend our country.
Japan has achieved a stable democratic country, so there are a variety of history
textbooks allowed for teachers to choose. If one of the books is from rightests, who can stop them? There's a freedom of speech! Also note that there published a copy examining and critisizing the disputed textbook. Isn't it an ideal aspect of democracy? Look at the communists' country where people can get only one-sided history. AMERICAN MUST KNOW THE SIGNIFICANCE OF "FREEDOM OF SPEECH".

Funnily enough, many japanese history textbooks describe all the attacks to neighboring countries as "invasion" while attacks from those countries as "expeditions". I'd like to emphasize that many expressions in existing textbooks have been already changed by the coutinuous pressure from China and Korea. This textbook is the only one facing up to them. This is why those countries plan undermining it.

About Nanjing massacre, a lot of arguments have been made since 80's in Japan. I have learned that Chinese communists have increased the number of victims year by year. It used to be 50,000 according to chinese government, but now it's 300,0000 as you can see in the memorial in Nanjing. Plus, some of the pictures in the building turned out to be made up. In one of the pictures, Japanese soldiers wear summer uniforms. That massacre in fact occured in winter. It's hilarious. A copy uncovering those things will be published in English, so look forward to it. Picture propaganta is the frequent way they use. Japan shall not run away until China show up in the court and fight over the exaggerated incident.
Iori
April 21, 2005
12:07 pm
If you read "Rape of Nanjing", it is necessary to read this conduct oneself.

Then, a true thing might be understood.

http://jpn.dyndns.ws/~nanking/index2.html
Mike
April 23, 2005
11:49 am
What about the Pictures in the Book? The ones with the naked women. with sticks shoved in their "you know whats", and piles of heads. Are they errors too? Get real!
To dispute it when both sides admit it is Revisionist and laughable. That doesn't mean that China is better or worse. Every country that exists has blood on their hands. The rape of Nanking and the experiments done on, and starvation of, prisoners are just some of the atrocities commited. After a WWII the losers (Germany and Japan) had to cow tow, and all their cruelty was exposed. The winners weren't squeaky clean, but their cruelty didn't get much scrutiny. Had the Allies lost, maybe the USA and Russia would have been tried for war crimes.
Stalin killed an estimated 20 million, and USA bombed civillians in Dresdin, and Nuked Japan! I never said war was fair.

Do we really want Japan to teach it's children that their country is bad?
What good will that do? Your probably going to say, " To Not repeat history." Then we'll have to change all the history books in all the countries. Instead of teaching history, we can just list all the atrocities. (In this day and age, China is still adding to their list at a much higher rate than Japan IMO. So all this self righteous indignation from CHINA takes focus away from that fact. It's a diversionary tactic from China.)
Japan is a great country, with low crime, and freedom. They haven't threatened anyone in over 60 years, and most of those people that did, are dead. China on the other hand, is building up their military for a future hell. (if they win)

You can beat the Japanese people over the head only so much over this. Then they'll just get tired of apologizing, and become numb. I know some Germans that feel the same way about their countries past.

I thnk we need to give the Japanese people a break, I wish more countries were like them.
puyopuyo
April 24, 2005
2:04 am
To Iori,
Yeah, you are also the one who doubt Iris Chang. She published a copy emotionally criticizing America a few years ago, and it exposed her preposterous proposition. I don't want to shoot down her because she's dead, but we have to note that she was just a controversial journalist, not a depenable historian.

To Mike,
See this page.
http://homepage3.nifty.com/kadzuwo/history/photonankin.htm
Note that they are various copies published in Japan from BOTH sides examining the incident. I am not the one who wants to whitewash the history. But if there are some exaggerations in neighbor's claim, objecting it is the way normal people would react.

And your opinion is quite true! Many German women were raped in Berlin by Soviet, but Russia never express their remorse. The world at that time went crazy. And it's true that Japan also invaded asian countries as Koizumi said at Asian-African summit . Now a little peace have been achieved, but the problem is that some country is still expanding its territory, invading Philippines sea for example. Funny thing is the country is pointing many Nukes at Japan while pretending a heaviest sufferer. You guys have to consider which country is the potential threat in the near future to the world. CCP ought to cease the fire and stop threatening Taiwan and East Turkistan before claiming anything.
Plunge
May 2, 2005
1:27 pm
I finally give my humble thoughts on this.
ComingAnarchy.com » Blog Archive » Adding one to the pile
July 27, 2005
1:17 am
[...] Japan has lots of issues and scandals. We have only covered history books, wartime apologies, beef imports, gender relations, whaling, Article 9, so-called foreign criminals, and the beloved Jenkins. Above and beyond those are milk scandals, management crises, iron-triangle problems, mercury poisoning and a horde of other topics. But today we have the return of something that has been on the back burner for a while, and that is asbestos: The Economist ... Although the World Health Organisation declared in 1980 that asbestos was a carcinogen, its use in construction was not banned in Japan until 2004, and a ban on all asbestos—introduced in July—will not come into effect until 2008. ... The country lags decades behind other industrialised nations when it comes to containing the harmfulness of asbestos. All six regional Japan Railway (JR) companies created after privatisation in 1987 still use carriages insulated with asbestos. JR East has announced that it will decommission 90 of its 250 asbestos-containing carriages by 2006. [...]
littlebutterfly
August 21, 2005
4:36 pm
I think the whole Japan apologizing thing is that the repeated apology refuses to acknowledge the specific acts of aggression. After all the Japanese raped countless women and girls as young as seven years old. They then enslaved countless others for repeated rapes, then slaughtered those women. The trauma that Japan caused is real. The Japanese calculatedly and repeatedly tortured and starved countless prisoners, yet they do not acknowledge publicly that their culture was the source of that belief that their enemies were without merit and should be treated with absolute contempt. To simply say "oh so sorry" is trivializing to the victims. It actually causes them more pain.

Still, I do not think that repeated apologies are not the answer. Japan needs to set up a forum in which the victims and their families can express their grief and be heard. Even recently (last couple of years) there were Japanese officials who accused the "comfort women" of being "nothing more than paid prostitutes." This was done to the face of a Korean woman telling about her experience as a forced sexual slave during the war. This is the same as raping her again.

The Japanese culture seems to repress that open communication and acceptance of responsibility. I think that many people see that as an unwillingness to accept full responsibility. Sure it may be discussed openly within the Japanese community. That is like saying sexual abuse is okay as long as it is "discussed openly within the family of origin."Â? Uh that would be a resounding, NO. These wounds inflicted by Japan cannot possibly heal unless the atrocities are fully examined, admitted and acknowledged at a governmental and policy level so that the victims can be honored inasmuch as they were dishonored and devalued unto death and violation.

Germany has taken steps (i.e. laws instituted that state that anyone saying the holocaust did not happen can be jailed), to ensure that the past is not denied. Japan also needs to determine the truth, hear the victims and establish the same expectation of shame on those who would deny the truth and the past.

As for the younger generations not being responsible, that is simply not true. We are all as part of humanity responsible. Has this occurred before? Of course it has. Is it continuing in the world? Absolutely! With each time it occurs it does affect future generations. The impact is seven generations. That burden is what keeps it from happening again. Does that mean that every Japanese boy is a rapist and a murderer? Of course not! But it means that those acts of brutality are part of his spiritual heritage. The pain and shame associated with those acts will absolutely affect every Japanese child until this matter is resolved.

In the United States those who chose to engage in the brutality of slavery (which too involved the annihilation, brutality, rape, dehumanization of huge numbers of people) have affected even those of us whose parents did not engage in such things. African slavery affected the world. The ramifications still exist 200 years later. I remember the hostility I saw my black friends treated with even in the late 80's early 90's in the South. WWII was only 60 years ago! That is maybe two generations. The pain is still very, very real for many people. This would be especially so for the young women violently gang raped at 7 because someone's commander decided she was not human. That is, if she was not bayoneted in the crotch until she died.

In the United States there are also the countless war crimes committed against the native Americans. Women were systematically raped, mutilated and whole villages of people, including children murdered. However, for some reason, we as a people seem to look at that as being in our "cultural infancy."Â? Yet that too was a result of peoples of the world being culturally raised to dehumanize others. That too stemmed from a European "parent."Â? Yet these acts of brutality were the inception of my nation. The United States is therefore midway through its seventh generation from the onset of the brutality. Yet we are STILL trying to overcome the "sins of our fathers."Â? Japan and Germany were much older cultures. The older the "child"Â? the more responsibility we as humanity feel they must bear. Does it make the US less "Guilty?"Â? No, again, certainly it does not.

The US too went through a time of trivializing and dismissing the effects of the systematic barbarism and acts of dehumanization initiated by those elected to lead. But there are so many who are free to speak the truth here. Also, like German the United States has taken numerous steps to help equalize the peoples and heal the injustices. Japan, one of the richest economies in the world, has taken few if any steps in that direction. Doing so would certainly equate in the minds of many with "taking responsibility."Â? That would heal a great deal of the trauma and bad feelings. Instead they put on a great showing that involves more ceremonies and facades. That and superficial, generalized expressions of "deep regret,"Â? will never, ever be enough to heal the real damage done.