This Japan Today article considers that rather interesting question here.
Do China and the Koreas dislike Japan for its sins, or because it’s expedient? Does popular resentment against the World War II invader and occupier come naturally, or is it being officially stoked?
My answer(s): Expedience! Officially stoked! And for once, the left-of-center publication and I are on the same page.
“When I was in high school,” recalls a 26-year-old Chinese 4th-year exchange student at Kanagawa University, “we were shown films in history class of the Nanking Massacre. Then we’d write essays about what we saw, and discuss them. At the time, knowing nothing about Japan as it is today, I thought, ‘What a horrible race!’ Then I came to Japan, and that image faded. Sadly, though, when I go back home my friends in China say, ‘How can you live in that country?’”
Yup—an authoritarian government which decides the content of education can of course make a people hate a country. Heck, even the good ol’ US inspired hatred and suspicion of everything Russian in the 1950s and for some time after. And in the quasi-democratic, quasi-authoritarian Republic of Korea, things aren’t much better.
[According to] Tokyo University linguist Cho Hi Chol, the Korean language is peculiarly rich in terms of abuse. Cho has catalogued some 1500 of them, many spawned by, and directed at, Japan.
And:
Like China, South Korea may have its reasons for nurturing anti-Japanese feelings. If North-South unification prospects ever get serious, DaCapo observes, a shared bitterness toward Japan might speed the Korean rapprochement.
So what happens when they finally unify? They can all hate Japan in unison!
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ComingAnarchy.com » Blog Archive » Apples and Oranges
April 10, 2005
9:04 pm
Jane
June 4, 2005
5:02 am
Mutantfrog
June 4, 2005
10:32 am
And there's also plenty of information avaliable in Japan about what they did in Korea and China-even the really lousy textbooks say at least a little bit, even if they try to excuse it with a bunch of nonsense about the 'Great East Asia Co-prosperity Sphere' or something.
Bloofy
June 5, 2005
2:49 am
Nihil
September 16, 2005
5:11 pm
Dan
September 17, 2005
11:58 am
So Christians should hate Jews, on the assumption that one Rape of Nanking roughly equals one theocide?
Or in one case do you hold only individuals accountable, and the other you hold an entire people?
And does the murder of hundreds of thousands of Japanese /after the end of the war/ in Korea, Manchuria, and China by nationalist factions mean Japanese are excused for hating Chinese and Koreans?
Darren
September 27, 2005
1:32 pm
Im a white English speaking westerner living in Japan and my wife is Japanese and I love her so much but most Japanese are first class morons when it comes to anything in the social sphere. They feel like they are victims rather than xenophobes.
Curzon
October 11, 2005
11:52 am
sun bin
October 11, 2005
8:01 pm
what the japanese have done since WWII is not exactly helping its tarnished image. the fact that the german did a great jobs has also made the japanese look bad, and encouraged comparison from the chinese/korean.
the issue is no different than that between poland and german, or any geographically neighboring countries which had conflict and atrocity in modern history. it is really for both sides to make an effort to mend the relationship.
Curzon
October 11, 2005
8:13 pm
The issue is indeed complex. From my [extensive] interractions with Korean and Chinese citizens in Japan, the US, Korea, and China, I am sorry that I conclude that the hatred of Japan is based in the authoritarian education system, which is what this post addresses. This later became a big issue of contention during my writings of April 2005 -- see specifically:
WE'RE CREATED A MONSTER
THE ARGUMENT RELOADED
Both sides do need to make efforts. I am not optimistic.
Kushibo
October 12, 2005
6:34 am
The animal in South Korea that keeps roaring about Japan is the agenda-driven press. Sadly, both the right-wing in Japan seems content to keep feeding this animal, when Roh isn't petting it. It is not a one-sided problem and both countries need to recognize that.
Curzon
October 12, 2005
12:45 pm
Yeah, the right-wing in Japan goads Korea -- but they should stop reacting to every little slight. A stupid textbook is used by .3% of schools and some bumblefuck prefecture of hicks declares Takeshima Day and you'd think Japan started WWIII. The only time I've heard people in Japan say "maybe the rightists are on to something" was in the aftermath of the finger-chopping, self-immolating wackiness of spring this year.
Matt
October 12, 2005
2:37 pm
ComingAnarchy.com » Blog Archive » Yasukuni Monument to be returned to South Korea
October 12, 2005
3:56 pm
sun bin
October 12, 2005
10:17 pm
example: you don't see protest nor demonstration when murayama was PM. he may not be a competent politician, but that is an example of how to effectively quell hatred.
curzon,
you said your observation is from Korean and Chinese living in Japan. Sure these people have come to know Japan a lot more than those still in China/Korea, and they have the opportunity to media exposure and facts not available back in "authoritarian countries". How do you explain the fact that their attitudes have not changed? Are you saying none of these people are able to make their own critical judgment?
yes, both sides need to make an effort.
china/korea has to acknowledge the fact that there is always an ultra-right in japan, there is nothing the japanese people or govt could do about it (just as there are ultra left/right in china/korea). what japan needs is just for the gov't to distant itself from the ultra-right. (murayama had made a good example of how to pass the ball back. or import any german PM to japan)
Curzon
October 12, 2005
10:40 pm
Sun Bin: Alas, you're reading this blog six months too late! This was the topic of discussion back in April, and I don't really have the strength anymore. To answer in brief:
MURAYAMA: You didn't see protests when Yoshida, Kishii, or others were Prime Minister either, but they were pretty right-wing. Korea and China don't exist in a vacuum -- they're changing societies, and the freedom to protest didn't always exist. Today, it wouldn't matter who was Prime Minister, enough people in both societies would be pissed enough to go riot.
MY OBSERVATIONS: No, I said my observations came from talking to Koreans and Chinese in the US, Japan, Korea, and China. I am pretty appalled by what I hear. The only exception is some Chinese people in Japan -- I have heard on more than a few occasions from Chinese nationals in Japan that they're embarrassed about their country.
CRITICAL JUDGMENTS: They're brainwashed from a young age. Allow me to draw your attention to "this.":http://aog.2y.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=1550 And that's SOUTH KOREA -- I shudder to think what it's like in China -- but from what I've heard, much worse.
As for my thoughts on Germany's current state of affairs in regards to its history, please see "this.":http://www.cominganarchy.com/2005/05/11/curzons-living-will/
Enough from me, you're welcome to have the last word.
Kushibo
October 12, 2005
11:13 pm
Curzon, I don't have time to go into this now, but the now-infamous subway posters are approaching mythical, or at least apocryphal, proportions.
Yes, those posters were put up. But the "exhibition" was also taken down early because of local complaints.
Second, everybody is assuming that the children's teacher(s) told them to draw something anti-Japanese; it is equally possible that the kids came up with the extreme themes on their own. That possibility did not occur to me until I visited an American friend's classroom down in YÃ…Â?su, in South ChÃ…Â?lla Province. She had her English students make posters promoting their palm tree-lined city on the southern coast.
Guess what? Some of them had similar "hate Japan" or at least "Tokto is our land" themes of the subway posters. She had no agenda, had not egged them on in any way to do that, but that's what they chose.
That's what kids do when they hear stuff.
Somewhere in my old closet back at my parents' place, are a few old junior high notebooks that have a hand-drawn map of Russia with a communist symbol on it, with a knife going right into the map, with blood oozing out of it. (That sounds like I was a dark kid, but it's just that knives and oozing blood were easy to draw.)
Why would I do that? Ronald Reagan talking about the "Evil Empire"? Maybe, but the fact is that it was an easy target. Adults talked about and stressed about the Russians and their nukes, even toward the end of the Cold War, and as a kid I heard enough of it to internalize it and then externalize it in that way.
But no teacher ever taught me to think like that. Okay, but no teacher would have proudly taken my notebook and displayed it in the Orange County subway (if Orange County had a subway, which we don't because we're proud, freedom-loving Americans who drive around in SUVs that poise themselves ready to decapitate any other driver who gets in our way). But some Scout leaders would have, and so would some Sunday School leaders. I even won a small prize in an essay contest talking about how evil the Russians were!
So my point: that appalling display in the subway was not quite what it seems.
sun bin
October 12, 2005
11:35 pm
... and "last word" does equal the truth. :) but just some perspective.
I am just saying that blaming 'brainwashing' as the only reason is "too simplistic a view".
I was aware of the Korean child painting, you can argue that it is from less than 0.03% of the kindergartens. But I don't think it makes a rational debate going down that path, as it does not change the fact that such painting will not help securing peace in our future. (But I am glad that you could compare german with japan. i am with you that the german got way too much than they deserved)
Instead, let me quote an example. back in the 1970s many people in mainland China were 'brainwashed' to think that people living on Taiwan island are so poor that they don't have pants to wear. As soon as the relative from taiwan bringing TV sets to the mainland in early 1980s, the brainwash and lies collapsed.
There is only so much brainwashing can do, esp in the internet age where information flow is a lot freer than the past. You can blame the CCP using the popular sentiment at their convenience (and quelling them otherwise), but to shoulder 100% of the blame on 'brianwashing' is just too simplistic a vew.
You argument breaks down when one looks at HK. Perhaps you would agree that the Hong Kong education is free and non-authoritarian (esp under the British)? Many young people love Japanese pop cultures since 1970s, till today. Most, if not all, are happy to enjoy sushi, sing J-pop, and watch J-drama. Many admire Japanese professionalism (I myself as well). However, there are always many who feel strongly against the yasukuni/textbook issues when the they arise. This is not what 'brainwashing' can achieve, and no one tried to brainwash them.
There is always bad feeling after a war, anywhere in the world. Only time can heal this, eg, wait till a new generation grow up. During the process of healing, it does not help if one side try to touch the wound, and hence reminding the new generation of the damaged past. It takes effort from both sides to heal.
Curzon
October 12, 2005
11:36 pm
1. The subway pictures in question are one colorful caricature. Exagerated but telling.
2. "it is equally possible that the kids came up with the extreme themes on their own." So? They're kids! They got it from somewhere! Think of the children, Kushibo, the children... (Maybe it was the "morphine-induced stupor.":http://www.cominganarchy.com/2005/04/22/koizumis-political-jijutsu/#comment-418 )
3. Surely you jest. Russia was our enemy/rival. Japan is Korea's partner/ally! If Japan had nukes pointed at Seoul and was engaging in proxy war with ROK in some distant central asian land, we wouldn't be having this conversation.
SUN BIN: I lied -- but only because I totally disagree with your two new points.
ON HONG KONG: Well, the British hated Japan after the war too (see point five, "the generation gap," in this post. The difference? It's mellowed with age.)
BRAINWASHING: China brainwashed it's people regarding Taiwan about FACTS. China is now brainwashing its people regarding Japan that the country is EVIL. The facts aren't in dispute (well, perhaps the death count at Nanjing is). But there is no "truth" about hating or loving Japan.
ON HEALING THE WOUNDS: also touched upon in the aforementioned generation gap point in the link above.
sun bin
October 13, 2005
12:10 am
I meant to say my ' "last word"Â? does NOT equal the truth. :) , just some perspsective' for people to judge.
Kushibo
October 13, 2005
1:58 am
If a country claims part of your territory, are they an ally? If policitos in a country claim that their prior brutal occupation of you really wasn't so bad and that you actually benefited from it, are they an ally?
There are disturbing right-wing thoughts among some people in Japan; that will not change. What alarms many Koreans is when someone in officialdom says or accepts the right-wing thoughts. It makes it much harder to make the "ally" claim.
Curzon
October 13, 2005
3:11 am
Korea and Japan are/should be allies because -- SHOCK -- they have the same national interests. Economically and politically they are in the same boat, they face the same future threats (like, CHINA already!), not to mention that fellow called Kim Jong Il. (Oh, wait, how silly of me. I forgot. The pariah of Pyongyang is viewed more favorably than Bush and Koizumi. * sigh*)
Yes, Japan claims an uninhabited rock occupied by Korea in the Japan Sea, which no Japanese people have set foot on since the 1960s. Hickville declare Takeshima Day and this is enough to self-immolate, cut off fingers, and start diplomatic war? Do Koreans have any idea how idiotic this makes them look in the eyes of the world?
As for territorial disputes, this is not enough to damage relations. Or at least not for any country where grownups are in charge. Japan also claims "Russian land":http://www.karafuto.com/ (and unlike Dokto/Takeshima, people actually live there -- more than 400,000 of them!); "India claims Chinese territory and vice versa.":http://www.cominganarchy.com/2005/09/28/buffer-states-part-1-the-himalayas/ Shit, "Spain actually owns parts of Morocco's coastline":http://www.cominganarchy.com/2005/10/10/spain-in-africa/ -- how do the locals restrain their finger-chopping urges? Additionally, please refer to "this.":http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_disputed_or_occupied_territories
Now for an economic interest analysis: how much cash has Korea lost by Japan's nominal claim on Takeshima? Somewhere close to zero dollars and zero cents. How much cash has Japan's chief ally and sponsor, the United States lost in this "mad cow nonsense?":http://www.cominganarchy.com/2005/05/14/got-beef/ BILLIONS. Not to mention JOBS and FARMS. Somehow, we've managed to restrain our finger-chopping urges as well.
Finally, it is a fact of life that every country in the world has both rightwingers and leftwingers. I know the Left-wing intolerance of freedom of speech is alive and well, but extremists are generally ignored by the Japanese public until the assholes in Korea made the "geezers in black trucks":http://www.mutantfrog.com/2005/04/10/japanese-right-wing-truck/ look sensible in comparison.
Oh, one more thing. To go back to education from a few comments ago, your favorite blog has "another expose of Korean education.":http://www.occidentalism.org/?p=39 I weep for the future.
Kushibo
October 13, 2005
4:20 am
Anyway, I'll just mention the first part, that you have mistaken (and this may be my fault) the devil's advocate position I was taking for my actual opinion.
When I said of Korea and Japan being allies that "I'd like to think [that they are]," that was me saying that I consider them to be. This is pretty clear from my blog (case in point).
I will try to go into this later, but I'm trying to get off to Japan myself tomorrow (with parents; don't know if I'll have to meet anyone). Let me just point out that Korea is a country where threats to territorial integrity have taken dire turns in the past. Given that Tokto was the first bit of Korea territory taken by an encroaching Japan, many see it as a sort of canary in the coalmine, and it doesn't look good that a right-wing Japanese government aiming to expand Japan's military role outside its own territory continues to press that Tokto belongs to them.
GI Korea
October 13, 2005
9:47 pm
This is also done in cycles. When the media and government get tired of bashing on the Japanese they will move to bashing the US. Most recently the whole MacArthur Statue nonsense in Incheon. Currently the media attention has moved from the MacArthur bashing, to Canadion ESL teacher bashing in Korea.
The media and the politicians all feed on this until it gains attention in the international media. Once the US media began to report on the MacArthur statue nonsense and the US Congress sent an offical letter to President Roh suddenly the MacArthur bashing ended and have heard nothing about it since. Now that the ESL teacher bashing is gaining notice in the Canadian and British media look for the bashing to move to something else.
fack peace
October 24, 2005
8:33 pm
But what japanese textbook has is really off.
Have you read the text book?
1. They wrote that their invention to the korea was actually helped Korea. (wow, then why german government don't say they helped Jewish?)
2. Jap textbook states german is like the WORST county which made all of terrible history even japanese did very similar things.
well, if korean government is brainwatshing their people, then jap government is brainwatshing japanese too rite?
kroean and chinese aren't stupid that just believe what the government told them to believe.
Japanese are the one who believes everything without concerning about what the governemnt saying.
Why Germans say sorry and do all of those things for the other country? cz Germans know they did something bad.
what Japan did? and what Japan is doing rite now?
ComingAnarchy.com » Blog Archive » Novak interviews Koizumi
October 26, 2005
2:40 pm
Kushibo
November 8, 2005
3:43 am
According to Yasukuni, that would be the first world war Japan was responsible for.
The only time I've heard people in Japan say "maybe the rightists are on to something"Â? was in the aftermath of the finger-chopping, self-immolating wackiness of spring this year.
Hmm... the right-wing apologist defense of the government-approved textbook is that only 0.3% use it, but people in Japan think the right-wing is on to something when 0.00000004% people (both in the same family of finger-chopping protesters) in South Korea chop off their little finger? Well, touche, then. All I can say is that, at least it wasn't a government-approved finger-chopping. ;)
Lawrence Onu
November 8, 2005
3:43 pm
Curzon
November 8, 2005
3:45 pm
Kushibo
November 8, 2005
4:14 pm
I guess Christians ran out of cheeks to turn during the colonial era.
There are some things in the Bible talking about forgiveness, but when the repentance comes with crossed fingers (It wasn't our fault!), even a saint would find it hard to unconditionally love thy neighbor.
Anyway, there are plenty of Koreans who love Japan. Not the government, but the country and the people.
Nihil
November 29, 2005
12:58 pm
wanderings0ul
December 1, 2005
2:02 am
However, in the recent years, I am starting to hear stories of how the Japanese government tries to rewrite the history in their textbooks. Before this, I have heard stories from my grandparents about the war but it didn't bother me too much, after all, it was something that happened two generations ago and that war has nothing to do with any of the Japanese people around my age. However, after reading that in the news, I was interested to find out what they were trying to re-write. I started searching over the internet and reading books about the war, both in Chinese and English. What I learned makes my skin crawl, what my father and my black colleague told me makes a lot more sense than before.
I have to say now a day, my fascination for Japan is all gone, looking back, after seeing how selfishly it acted during the 1997 Asian financial crisis and seeing how it acts today with no regard for its neighbor's feelings. I am sorry to say that I have an intense hatred toward that country.
My feeling is share by my girlfriend and many other young Chinese American people that I know. We grew up in America and loved the Japanese goodies when we were growing up so we don't fall in that "Brain-Washed"Â? category. I think Japan made a stupid mistake by trying to re-write its history books, by trying to do that, they made a new generation of Chinese people worldwide remembered unspeakable war crimes that was otherwise forgiven or even forgotten.
Curzon
December 1, 2005
3:34 am
bob
February 18, 2006
12:16 am
davesgonechina
February 18, 2006
3:18 am
wanderings0ul, you think that's bad, you should try going to China. Same old story. PRC history textbooks miss a few wee details too. Maybe you can ask Dad about the motherland next time.
Ron Patterson
February 18, 2006
3:42 am
In China brainwashing indeed, but 35 million Chinese died. There are still people alive here who endured the japanese occupation, and the 45-60 year olds here all heard storys of the horrors from their parents and Grandparents. As far as the bigots on this board who make blanket generalizations I have no use for them.
BoB , it is not that long since the Japanese killed and raped there way accross China. There are still living victims here. Old woman who were gang-raped saw their family beheaded. I have talked to young Chinese who ae not haters of japan but are extremely wary and not quite willing to believe that apologies are sincere
bob
February 18, 2006
2:16 pm
kushibo
February 18, 2006
11:47 pm
The facts are that Japanese Imperial rule while not exactly benevolent brought great improvement to Korea. The end of slavery being one of the benefits.
Ron, in what year did slavery end in Korea?
In China brainwashing indeed, but 35 million Chinese died. There are still people alive here who endured the japanese occupation, and the 45-60 year olds here all heard storys of the horrors from their parents and Grandparents.
Exactly. How do you teach this without running the risk of provoking animosity? It's very hard.
But of course, the Chinese also need to teach what horrors occurred at the hands of the Communists under Mao, etc. But none of that lets Imperial Japan off the hook, so it's foolish to suggest that Japan is historically less culpable because of what the Communists did later.
As far as the bigots on this board who make blanket generalizations I have no use for them.
BoB , it is not that long since the Japanese killed and raped there way accross China. There are still living victims here. Old woman who were gang-raped saw their family beheaded.
Precisely. I heard first-hand horror stories of Japanese mistreatment (and North Korean mistreatment) from relations who went through it themselves. Some Japan apologists like to depict anti-Japanese animosity as primarily the result of government action"”?and some of it is"”?but first-hand accounts from parents and grandparents play an imporant role.
Why is that? It's because of the fundamental fact underlying this entire issue: the Imperial Japanese did some awful, awful shit to many, many people.
bob wrote:
Really it is getting quite pathetic hearing the same old story, loads of Jews were killed in the holochaust but you don't get whole chunks of Jewish history books preaching hatred to the children, this isn't a case of what the Japanese did, it is a case of a corrupt control freak communist party..."
But here is a key difference: German officialdom of today does not do the following: (a) insinuate that the Jews, the Gypsies, the French, the Belgians, the Russians, the Baltics, etc., etc., actually benefitted from Nazi occupation; (b) claim that the horrors committed by German soldiers are largely made-up or trumped-up; (c) state that territory lost during World War II is still a part of Germany; (d) declare that the trials at Nuremberg were a sham and the war criminals of Nuremberg were actually lovers of peace to be worshipped; (d) downplay the atrocities when teaching history to German children; etc.
The Germans are very responsible with their wartime past; the Japanese not as much (although there are many in the mainstream trying to be more Germany-like).
yet if it can't move on from something that happened in the past then they are the past,
People say China and the Koreas are living in the past, but should just let it go. But frankly, that's getting things backwards: it is the Japanese politicians who try to deny, deconstruct, or distort that are living in the past. When modern Japanese politicians make claims of beneficial occupation or some such thing, how can one think that that politician is not trying to rationalize something that happened more than a half a century ago and"”?more to the point"”?how is that person NOT focusing on the past?